The Lunatic Club

[Czar_Yoshi]

GK for a lead? The low Spd is actually less of a liability than the dual weaknesses and the fact that it takes a huge mound of training, often with subpar weapons to gain full WTC. But for a pairup, they're great- +Mov/Def is very nice. I personally prefer DK for supporting as they give +Mov/Def/Res, can hit Def or Res (or Aegis or Pavise, should they need to lead), don't care about the triangle, etc...

Morgan is a frontliner and should not waste his time with support skills like Rallies. He cares more about boosting his combat stats.

[Thor Odinson]

Would Lucina be worth it for a DK support, then? Though my Chroms usually suck major ass so I end up training Lucina to be Grimaslayer so I expect she'd want to see some exp as well. I mean, her mag will probably suck royal ass, but Falchion use still exists there. I usually run paladin with her and I was thinking BK, but if she's going to support for Morgan...

Obviously Chrom can't go DK himself or MU could do with that res boost. Does losing spectrum hurt much in L+? If it does I could probably skip merc and take a trip through GM instead. I ran spectrum Morgan in Lunatic because I already had extremely competent frontliners in MU, Sully, Lucina (who also decided to get much better level ups than him), and Panne, but given how much harder it is to even train Sully and Panne in L+ and that Lucina will be missing free rank-attaining support partners in Yarne and Kjelle and can't go Warrior...

Edited January 11, 2014 by Thor Odinson

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

It's not so much I want to use bows as I want to follow a strength-based build and with +str -res magic isn't exactly her strong suit. I'd honestly much prefer axes over bows, but that'd leave me too open to counter if I can't oneshot (handaxes are weak, as well, theoretically I could go for spotpass shop and buy tomahawks and forge those, maybe?)---and even with highest possible str at 54 there is still a lot of things she can't OHKO without some rally support.

Counter's basically my biggest worry, really. Without it in such likelyhood of play I could go for the forged braves apotheosis style (and also stick to my usual scheme of Hero->GK). DK is another one I thought about due to, like you said, Lifetaker being situationally useful, but I'm not sure how well her magic will be of use as that will be her only source of ranged in both Levin Sword and tomes. It's certainly worth considering if the low mag doesn't hurt that much. There's still the risk of eating counters, though. I'd like to not have to reset maps beyond the earlygame hell.

You're gonna have serious money issues if you try to make forges for OHKOs that are generally an iffy prospect.

Early on, her Mag should still be passable. This is due to everyone having poor Res and Ignis being available soon if she's getting really fed. It's worth noting that I take +Def/-Luk, so I'm running with an offense growth and cap penalty to both Str and Mag and my Avatar does just fine.

Getting Galeforce is a bit turning point in the game, especially if it's a FeMU/Chrom duo run (so there's no other liabilities around to mess with their kiting). Note that I did it without any life-steal or regen skills and I pretty much broke the game over my knee. It's really easy (especially once Boots are in play) to run in, gib someone (usually Avatar at 2 range vs a Counter enemy, though Hawkeye with Luna+ enemies should be priority targets too), Galeforce out to the bare limits of enemy movement such that Avatar only has to face one or two enemies (more if one is confident the enemy can't kill her) and use an item to heal if necessary. Veteran and Galeforce are a combo that pretty much borders on the unfair (but this is Lunatic+ we're talking about, so I don't feel bad at all using it) and Tonics, Boots and Concoctions/Elixirs will pretty much ensure that Avatar is completely elusive. See http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=40473&hl= for how Avatar utterly embarrassed the mode once she got rolling. Note that Chrom may require some stat boosters at the end for Grimaslaying.

Would Lucina be worth it for a DK support, then? Though my Chroms usually suck major ass so I end up training Lucina to be Grimaslayer so I expect she'd want to see some exp as well. I mean, her mag will probably suck royal ass, but Falchion use still exists there. I usually run paladin with her and I was thinking BK, but if she's going to support for Morgan...

Obviously Chrom can't go DK himself or MU could do with that res boost. Does losing spectrum hurt much in L+? If it does I could probably skip merc and take a trip through GM instead. I ran spectrum Morgan in Lunatic because I already had extremely competent frontliners in MU, Sully, Lucina (who also decided to get much better level ups than him), and Panne, but given how much harder it is to even train Sully and Panne in L+ and that Lucina will be missing free rank-attaining support partners in Yarne and Kjelle and can't go Warrior...

Spectrum is pretty much a waste of time, especially if you end up doing a duo or even a two-pair run.

Edited January 11, 2014 by Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi

[Thor Odinson]

Theoretically if I end up two-pairing and doing Galeforce, then should I try to get Galeforce on to Morgan as well? I usually recruit him around 15 anyway since that's when I feel I'm statistically ready for his chapter on my previous runs. Or is an earlier Morgan (right after Lucina joins) more beneficial?

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

I find Galeforce is invaluable to Morgan. I usually run him and Lucina as a pair and it allows them to both get kills on player phase while ensuring they're both powerful. This means one dual strike is almost guaranteed to ensure an opponent's death and that if they run into HP issues, the other can temporarily take over and fight just as well. I usually also pass Veteran to Lucina (I've tried both and as awesome as Galeforce is, I find Veteran is more important) and reclass her to Cavalier, which means she can very quickly jump into just about any class she pleases and do well at it. Also, I recently tried Morgan as a Warrior (after going Fighter->Hero) and I have to say, a Warrior with Galeforce is disgustingly powerful in the main campaign (and still remains relevant even into no-grind Bonus Box Paralogue running... I've only Priam's map left to do and Morgan's been a significant contributor in everything thus far).

If you can go for an early Morgan (that is, you have Galeforce earlier than expected), I'd recommend at least giving getting him a shot. The sooner he starts to snowball, the better the shape you'll be in later. Note that this is also a great chapter to start training Lucina because the Wyvern Riders are just plain food to Parallel.

[Vorena]

Has Lunatic+ reached a point where people started LTC it yet?

[Thor Odinson]

Alright, thanks guys. I think I ultimately try for galeforce and go into bows, because what's the point of running +str if you're gonna sling magic anyway? Morgan's def going warrior, Chrom usually ends up pure support after a point so probably GK for him, and not quite sure what I want Lucina doing yet, but I'll figure that out in time.

[LordFrigid]

Out of curiosity...when you play Lunatic, how common is it to have it turn into a "send in the Avatar and watch the enemies burn" deal by the Valm-ish part of the game? On my 1st run through, it turned into a Nosferatank spree around ch. 12, on my 2nd and 3rd I went for an avoid/VV setup and that kept the "Push Start to Win" away for a little bit longer, but not by much...for a couple of the later chapters (namely 17 and 22) I was able to use a proper team that had me feeling like there was still SOME strategy involved in what I was doing, but that's about it.

I'd like to be able to use a fairly small team throughout the game (large enough so that I actually have to think some about what I'm doing, but small enough so that people don't get TOO underleveled), and I was just wondering if there were any tips floating around on how to do that. I think part of the problem is I have an irrational dislike of having any unit below full hp if I can help it...

A couple details that may or may not influence any responses...I play with a Male +Mag/-Def Avatar, and the only restriction I set on myself for Lunatic playthroughs is no DLC.

[Thor Odinson]

In regular Lunatic? I was able to use a core team of MU, Sully, Panne, Lucina, Morgan, and Tiki, with (fairly underlevelled) support partners. You can turn it into MUsolo if you want to, but in my run at least Sully did an incredible amount of heavy lifting after being fed some favoritism. She did get ridiculously blessed, but I had a GK Sully that'd just tank the fuck out of the world.

Thing about Lunatic is there's so many enemies anyway that even the low exp per kill after n reclasses is not a problem. I had enough time to go to 15 Hero, go to 16 GK, and then back to Hero for the last two chapters for just enough speed to double (quad) Grima with a A support from Paladin Lucina since my build takes a speed penalty. Sully had plenty of leverage to reclass to Wyvern after Paladin->GK, but I chose to keep her in GK because she tanks better that way.

[LordFrigid]

Yeah, regular Lunatic...I'm not sure I want to try Lunatic+ . Interesting to hear re. Sully; on my last run I tried working with Stahl...it failed...maybe I was just using the wrong cavalier.

[Thor Odinson]

It's all the RNG. Some people's sully doesn't come out well and get godly stahls, and vice versa. I usually have amazing luck with Sully and she's my favourite character anyway, so I use her often. L+ though...haha nope

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Has Lunatic+ reached a point where people started LTC it yet?

Haven't seen any serious attempts, myself. I usually make an effort to go quick, but I think the amount of RNG involved in Lunatic+ skills would make such a thing really frustrating.

Alright, thanks guys. I think I ultimately try for galeforce and go into bows, because what's the point of running +str if you're gonna sling magic anyway? Morgan's def going warrior, Chrom usually ends up pure support after a point so probably GK for him, and not quite sure what I want Lucina doing yet, but I'll figure that out in time.

Warrior!Morgan wants a speed support in order to keep doubling the enemies into the later game. Paladin!Lucina is pretty good at first, though the bonus falls off a bit. Hero!Lucina is a really good choice, both for available weaponry and the speed of the class allows her to frontline and double quite often with the meager amount that Morgan gives as a support (and it is important to double in order to get those tasty Morgan dual strikes, as even with a Steel Bow he hits like the fist of an angry god). Other options might be Assassin (she can bypass Aegis+ or Pavise+ unless they have both, plus provides speed and strength to Morgan when she's on support) or Bow Knight (Aegis+/Pavise+ bypassing, speed and mobility bonuses).

[Czar_Yoshi]

Has Lunatic+ reached a point where people started LTC it yet?

People have tried, but the problem is that with enough RNG manipulation, you could get every single enemy to have irrelevant Counters, opposite shields, Hawkeye with no listed damage, Luna+ misses, irrelevant Passes/Vantage+, and so on, until the strats are exactly the same as vanilla Lunatic but with more RNG manipulation. In short, it isn't worth it.

Stahl in nogrind Lunatic has this problem of getting doubled and ORKOed by everything except the Barbarians in his starting chapter, combined with atrocious weapon ranks that make getting him off the ground a royal pain. He's even worse than Donnel because there are no Archers to poke.

If you want to high-man vanilla Lunatic, grinding is pretty much your only option. I prefer playing it with no DLC, but Skirmishes allowed, and using the Risen for grinding, which makes grinding a challenge but lets me use many units and pursue an offensive strategy.

[Tribute]

Finally got my streetpass team up and running

[Vorena]

LTC typically comes down to reliability for most. There will always be ridiculous attempts as you mentioned to rig growths or certain hits. But, I am not looking for absolute minimum. I am just thinking of reliable low turn count. I do believe that they would exist for L+ with some basis on L runs. I would think as well that there might be some rigging of L+ enemy skills. But, any decent strategy might be able to account for variation in enemy skills somewhat.

As an example for Prologue,

1 PP: Fredrick OHKOs north Myrm from the left. Avatar moves left one and pairs with Lissa. Crhom stays.

1 EP: Fredrick hits two Barbs with SilverLance making sure one attacks his left side without Vantage+. Myrm does not move upwards at all.

2 PP: Chrom KOs Barb on left of Fredrick. Avatar snags a KO from 2 range on the other Barb. Fredrick OHKOs the Myrm with silver lance.

2 EP: WIth only Avatar in range, Mage hits avatar (cannot have Vantage+).

3 PP: Chrom attacks. Avatar finishes Mage.

Afterwards, you heal up, then take on the upper group. Avatar!Lissa move onto the water to the left to take the Mage and would use 1 or 2 vulnerary uses. While Fred!Chrom go right side to separate enemies. Have Fredrick!Chrom move up in water, cross over to the other side and lure in all the enemies to line up against the water for the Avatar to 2 range with Thunder tome. From there, its pick off getting experience to avatar and chrom or fredrick, and take on the easy boss.

Either way, this strategy above really only relies upon two enemy movements being precise (which it is most of the time) and making sure that two enemies do not have certain skills. I think you could make future chapters reliable too with only minimal rigging of enemy skills and your own levels.

[Czar_Yoshi]

That's not LTC, that's efficiency/reliability. LTC means lowest turn count, and if you're intentionally skipping a strategy that could yield a lower turn count, it's not LTC. Especially if that strategy is the water trick, getting 50+ turns in the prologue is an offense to LTCs.

As for a reliable strat, it has been done before: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=40300

Edited January 11, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi

[Marc71]

Uhm, I did start to play Lunatic/Classic just to prove that I do not need paid DLC to complete Lunatic/Classic. (I am very much against "grinding" DLC since the game must be beatable without paid DLC)

For that run, anything was allowed aslong as it didnt involve paid DLC and the game tries to make that difficult

-SpotPass teams only givev out 1xp for each action (except for staves)

-Risen encounters become nearly impossible once they start to promote (unpromoted are somewhat possible if you use overleveled units)

-Boss abusing only works for a brief time until you get less XP per hit, the extra XP is still worth it.

-While MUsolo works in theory, in practice this will only work in the main chapters. Saving Tiki is impossible with that, since the enemies will go for her and ignore your units ... (Ok I thought that this will get you killed in the endgame...)

-Also, saving the villagers in some paralogues will not work with solo MU. Sure, its not required, but they give out some nice stuff.

-No Nosferatu and Galeforce was used, for personal reasons (it wont work for me for some reason, not working for my defensive style that relys on rallying)

-Main game is beaten, some final paralogues (due their difficulty) and a few children paralogues (due lack of S supports) are still missing.

-Since Chrom is forced in every chapter, you want to grind that guy, even though hes not that great..

-Early game relies on a lot trial and error and hoping that the RNG wont screw you...

Eventually I did that, albeit I have a horrible turn count, but for all intends and purposes...I beat Lunatic/Classic, with everyone alive in the end (I didnt recruit Donnel, but he was alive in the end), without having to resort to paid DLC..

Now dont get me started to Luna+....I simply dont have the free time now, too busy ATM.

[Thor Odinson]

See what I did with Chrom is just threw him on to the back of Lucina and watched Lucina dominate

Had shitty stats but hey

Lucina's always my Grimaslayer anyway

also started L+

prologue and c1 done

chapter 2 hell is hell

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Chrom makes a pretty good support unit thanks to being able to build support levels from very early in the game and Great Lord (Rapiers are really quite helpful during the Valm arc, plus the gigantic speed boost is great for keeping the lead unit doubling) and Paladin being really good support classes (Str, Spd, Skl and Def bonuses, which makes for a very balanced boost).

[Vorena]

That's not LTC, that's efficiency/reliability. LTC means lowest turn count, and if you're intentionally skipping a strategy that could yield a lower turn count, it's not LTC. Especially if that strategy is the water trick, getting 50+ turns in the prologue is an offense to LTCs.

As for a reliable strat, it has been done before: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=40300

Well, I am not going to argue about definitions. I would just like to see what efforts were made to try getting low/reliable as possible. Taking a look at intercepters prologue run I see being able to really cut into that turn count of his with some proper set-up and not really sacrifice too much from what he had. Again, the first rush is easily finished in 3 turns with proper skill set-up. Ideally, you could only need to heal chrom and avatar once each. So, by about turn 7 you could be set-up to lure the enemies to attack on player phase. Then, for avatar to KO all enemies would be about 3-4 hits each. With probably chrom getting one KO to speed it up a bit. Afterwards, heal up Fredrick and attack boss giving KO to avatar. So, you could finish within 30 turns after looking over it again. If enemy skills are not right (like chrom or fredrick hitting luna+ skills) you have to spend an extra turn healing or so.

From my couple of tries you finish in ~30 turns and see avatar at level 5, lissa level 2, and base for chrom fredrick. Plus, I think +hp/-skl is the better set-up for avatar. Hp is the same regardless of phy/mag attacker. Plus, with luna+ skills it takes 2 def/res points to actually reduce damage by a single point. Another benefit is that you are guaranteed +1 hp every level with a change at +2. With the increased health also comes increased % gain on forts.

Still need to see more of the early chapters though.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Eri's Ire

[phobia]

I was on chapter 20 in a lunatic+ run and stopped playing for a while, then I bought some new DLC and wanted to start a new file over my old Lunatic file... and accidentally saved over my L+ file. sad.

Has Lunatic+ reached a point where people started LTC it yet?

I think it'd be fairly impossible to LTC L+ because of all the absolute luck involved in what skills enemies get

Edited January 12, 2014 by phobia

[Czar_Yoshi]

Uhm, I did start to play Lunatic/Classic just to prove that I do not need paid DLC to complete Lunatic/Classic. (I am very much against "grinding" DLC since the game must be beatable without paid DLC)

For that run, anything was allowed aslong as it didnt involve paid DLC and the game tries to make that difficult

-SpotPass teams only givev out 1xp for each action (except for staves)

-Risen encounters become nearly impossible once they start to promote (unpromoted are somewhat possible if you use overleveled units)

-Boss abusing only works for a brief time until you get less XP per hit, the extra XP is still worth it.

-While MUsolo works in theory, in practice this will only work in the main chapters. Saving Tiki is impossible with that, since the enemies will go for her and ignore your units ... (Ok I thought that this will get you killed in the endgame...)

-Also, saving the villagers in some paralogues will not work with solo MU. Sure, its not required, but they give out some nice stuff.

-No Nosferatu and Galeforce was used, for personal reasons (it wont work for me for some reason, not working for my defensive style that relys on rallying)

-Main game is beaten, some final paralogues (due their difficulty) and a few children paralogues (due lack of S supports) are still missing.

-Since Chrom is forced in every chapter, you want to grind that guy, even though hes not that great..

-Early game relies on a lot trial and error and hoping that the RNG wont screw you...

Eventually I did that, albeit I have a horrible turn count, but for all intends and purposes...I beat Lunatic/Classic, with everyone alive in the end (I didnt recruit Donnel, but he was alive in the end), without having to resort to paid DLC..

Now dont get me started to Luna+....I simply dont have the free time now, too busy ATM.

I can't tell if you're telling what you did or reciting some of the aspects of Lunatic... But Tiki is very saveable during a solo using AI exploits, Donnel isn't too much trouble to recruit when Archers are so weak and can't get Pass, the earlygame RNG honestly isn't that bad, and all the Risen are beatable with no DLC or specialized pairings. For the villagers, just do the paralogues later once you have stronger characters. Most of the later recruits can wipe the walls with anything that chapter has to offer.

From my couple of tries you finish in ~30 turns and see avatar at level 5, lissa level 2, and base for chrom fredrick. Plus, I think +hp/-skl is the better set-up for avatar. Hp is the same regardless of phy/mag attacker. Plus, with luna+ skills it takes 2 def/res points to actually reduce damage by a single point. Another benefit is that you are guaranteed +1 hp every level with a change at +2. With the increased health also comes increased % gain on forts.

Still need to see more of the early chapters though.

Let's say you have 10 hits incoming with 25 atk per hit. What will it be easier to tank that with, 60HP and 20 Def, or 45HP and 25 Def?

[Vorena]

Let's say you have 10 hits incoming with 25 atk per hit. What will it be easier to tank that with, 60HP and 20 Def, or 45HP and 25 Def?

How many are carrying Luna+? Plus, how many of those would target your resistance? Anyway, a 4HKO with 4 Luna+ hits from those stats on the left. Or a 3.6 HKO with 45hp/25def stats. Even with no Luna+ skills you still survive the 60hp/20def from the 10 attacks assuming physical attackers only.

Without exact %growth rates its hard to determine how your hp/def or hp/res would turn out later in the game. If the difference in def growth for the +hp or +def avatar is only 5%, then it would take on average 20 levels to see the benefit of +1 def point. If 10% difference, then only 10 levels for a +1 def point lead over the +hp variant. Either way, you do not see any large benefit to your def stat until much, much later in the game. I am was thinking that +hp was more beneficial for early in the game due to the base stat gain it gave you for the first few chapters over the long term gain you get from growth. But, even the long term gain is fairly beneficial I believe with the opportunity to get +2 hp from time to time.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Eri's Ire

[Czar_Yoshi]

Asset/Flaw affect starting stats by an extremely significant margin, and the growth rate difference is likely a lot bigger than that. But physical attackers are much commoner than mages, and the mages you do see are mostly Dark Mages with derpy hit and bad stats who won't harm you without Hawkeye. By the end of the Valm arc, your units also begin to cap HP regardless, so it won't help past there.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi

[Vorena]

Its because they affect starting stats so much is why I mentioned it. The whole idea was seeing a +2 def or +5 hp boost at the start of the game along with a guaranteed hp procurement in your first few level-ups in the game. By the end of prologue you can get avatar to at least lv 4,

+Hp: +8 hp gain (from base stat and growth) & (+1/+2 def from growth)

+def: +3.5 def gain (from base stat and assuming 50% def growth) & (+2/+3 hp from growth)

HP again is useful due to being the same cost for def or resistance and is not affected by luna+ skill at all. Overall, +hp asset provides more bulk at the beginning chapters without risk for getting RNG screwed. How much it does for mid/late game I am not sure since we do not have accurate %growths for the game yet. But, lunatic is most difficult at the first 5 chapters I believe and eases up afterwards until endgame. By this point, you do not care so much about meeting benchmarks on stats at all since you easily more powerful than your enemies at this point with the avatar. Early chapters are more reliant on meeting benchmarks for reliability.

Plus, Interceptor's run had avatar reclassed/promoted 4 times and did not cap the 80hp mark at all by the end of the game. But, ended at 77hp.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Eri's Ire