The Lunatic Club

[Czar_Yoshi]

But how many extra attacks will that extra ~5 HP allow you to survive?

[Vorena]

Going with the water approach for Prologue, the avatar can beat the Mage even if it has Luna+ since it has enough hp to just survive multiple attacks. Something that the +def avatar cannot do at all.

For chapter 1 I'll assume those stats from before on my other post with a level 4 avatar going into chapter 1.

+Hp:

On a fort, avatar with no Fredrick is 3HKO by iron axe users with no luna+. However, is 2HKO by axe users with luna+, but can survive a luna+ and non-luna axe user. Something the +def variant is still 2HKO even with a single luna+ enemy. The Mercs in this chapter also have the same str+weapoon+weapon rank as the barbarians since barbarians lack the weapon rank due to weapon triangle disadvantage.

Overall, +def and +hp is not too different in the first couple of chapters other than being able to take on luna+ attacks and still live. It does obviously allow you to tank luna+ skill enemies and therefore not have to reset due to certain enemies having the skill.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Cht.1 is easy and doesn't matter, and I've beat the Mage with Luna+ and +Def plenty of times before. The important one is Cht.2, where the amount of damage you take from non-Luna+ Soldiers can easily make the difference between whether you survive or die.

I'm curious as to why you aren't bringing up Counter. Against Counter foes, the amount of HP you have can easily make a huge difference- it's a much stronger argument than the ability to tank sieges.

[FionordeQuester]

So, what do you guys think of resetting on the Prologue if I don't get enough Defense boosts? I use the water walking strategy, and am thinking of resetting if I don't get at least 1 +Def level by Level 3, then still resetting if I don't end up with at least 12 Defense by the time I reach Level 7. What do you think? This is, of course, with Defense boosting natures (and I am of the opinion that Eri's Ire is going to get a nasty shock when he/she gets to Chapter 2).

[Vorena]

So, what do you guys think of resetting on the Prologue if I don't get enough Defense boosts? I use the water walking strategy, and am thinking of resetting if I don't get at least 1 +Def level by Level 3, then still resetting if I don't end up with at least 12 Defense by the time I reach Level 7. What do you think? This is, of course, with Defense boosting natures (and I am of the opinion that Eri's Ire is going to get a nasty shock when he/she gets to Chapter 2).

L or L+? On L you don't have to reset really at all so long as your Avatar isn't getting terrible growths. I'd hate to have to reset on L+ for growths on top of already resets for skill layout.

Cht.1 is easy and doesn't matter, and I've beat the Mage with Luna+ and +Def plenty of times before. The important one is Cht.2, where the amount of damage you take from non-Luna+ Soldiers can easily make the difference between whether you survive or die.

I'm curious as to why you aren't bringing up Counter. Against Counter foes, the amount of HP you have can easily make a huge difference- it's a much stronger argument than the ability to tank sieges.

I just wish I knew the defence growth rates to really see the long term difference.

[Marc71]

Uhm, while recruiting late units wasnt an issue (eventually having about 12 units in the end), the main problem I had were the early chapters and by extention, early units.

Can the early units be any useful? I know, I skipped donnel, since for practical reasons grinding donnel to 1 level is not practical unless you are a completionist, since other units need that XP (He did not die in that chapter to be fair)

Later units werent an issue since by that time the game got easier too....in some cases it did involve tactics that would ruin the turn count (Dancing Olivia for 100+ turns? Lissa that abused staves?)...

For that case, while later units might be inferior than early units..(dunno if that is really the case)...its better to have some average units than having no units at all..

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Early units are usuable, but if you're playing it safe, you can maybe get away with trying to raise 3 pairs other than Avatar's. Two pairs on Lunatic+. I've tried 4 pairs and usually one gets cut about 1/3 of the way through the game and another gets benched about 3/4 through. It's basically matter of feeding experience to those units to get them over-leveled and there's only so much to go around and some situations just don't allow safely feeding weaker units (especially in Lunatic+).

[Czar_Yoshi]

L or L+? On L you don't have to reset really at all so long as your Avatar isn't getting terrible growths. I'd hate to have to reset on L+ for growths on top of already resets for skill layout.

I just wish I knew the defence growth rates to really see the long term difference.

I can do the first two chapters consistently enough (with any skill layout) to manipulate items from the event tiles. Stat manipulation isn't too bad.

For no grind Lunatic+, I'd advise one of the following setups:

Avatar-F x Chrom

Someone (male child) x Someone

Someone (female child) x Someone

Morgan x female child

Lucina x male child

Avatar-F x Someone

Chrom x Someone

Someone (opposite of Lucina's sibling child) x Someone

Morgan x Lucina

Lucina's sibling x other child

Avatar-M x Someone (male child)

Chrom x Someone (male child)

Morgan x Lucina's sibling

Lucina x Morgan's sibling

[FionordeQuester]

So what is this RNG manipulation thing? That sounds like it could be really handy for getting Tiki's Tears and the like! How do you do it?

Edited January 12, 2014 by FionordeQuester

[Czar_Yoshi]

Reset over and over until you get the item you want.

Too tedious? There's an easier way on Casual mode. Clear out all the bottom enemies on the Prologue, quicksave, and then get the event tile. If it's not what you want (I usually go for a Leif's Blade or a Celica's Gale), reload the save, wait a turn, save again, and try it again. Keep doing that until you get what you want.

[Thor Odinson]

Man I actually got a celica's no abuse in prologue

except I still can't use it because apparently the water trick didn't bring me up to D and I used the sword predominantly in C1 for WTA and double the attack power

whoops

chapter 2 is hell on earth. Do I need 12+ defense absolutely or can I just reset skills and cheese it with 10 after 50 resets or so?

Edited January 12, 2014 by Thor Odinson

[Redwall]

can I just reset skills and cheese it with 10 after 50 resets or so?

Yes; I did it with 10 Def (+Def asset and bad level-ups) and just a few resets.

[FionordeQuester]

Well, you can of course cheese Chapter 2...though I wasn't recommending 12 Defense by Chapter 2, but rather, 12 Defense by Chapter 1, at which point, I would use the 3-4 levels I get there to get at least 2 more Defense, for a grand total of 14 Defense.

EDIT: But never mind, Miikaya's post sounds interesting. How'd you do that?

Edited January 13, 2014 by FionordeQuester

[Thor Odinson]

I basically get bad Rng luck and get the too many luna setup on every reset

fml

Think there was one time where half the map was Luna + Hawkeye and I was just like

NOPE

Edited January 13, 2014 by Thor Odinson

[Czar_Yoshi]

Yes; I did it with 10 Def (+Def asset and bad level-ups) and just a few resets.

This is Lunatic+, right? Cht.2 Lunatic is (comparatively) a cakewalk.

To get C Tomes on Avatar, you need to attack 35 times. I don't know how long it takes for the anti-abuse to turn off wexp gains, but you can put some non-Luna+ dudes on forts for a decent amount in Cht.1, and remove ally weapons to ensure no DS procs on the Cht.1 boss to squeeze out a little more. If it's too hard, you can try manipulating a Wilderwind instead for the high crit.

[FionordeQuester]

That's what I did to the boss. Though, how many times can you hit the dude? It seems like the finishing experience is lessened as well as the abuse experience.

[Redwall]

EDIT: But never mind, Miikaya's post sounds interesting. How'd you do that?

Fighting with the Avatar and Frederick, sometimes with other partners and other times Paired Up with each other, and having the other units distract and hold off enemies encroaching from above the left passageway bounding the mountain. Distracting them is helpful to prevent the Avatar and Fred from being overwhelmed. I don't remember the exact details, but I doubt this differs much from Interceptor's guide. I had relatively few Luna+ spawns on my successful attempt, but even on a few of my unsuccessful ones that had more Luna+ enemies, I still had a low-but-reasonable chance (like, if an enemy missed an attack 80% true hit or something) at breaking through without casualties. This is kind of a small sample size from which to draw conclusions about the amount of luck you need, but yeah.

[FionordeQuester]

Hmm...actually that sounds like a good idea! I'll try that out, see what I can do! Thanks!

[Vorena]

Does anyone bother avoiding recruiting Kellam in chapter 3 since enemies do not attack him.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

I've waited until after the first rush to use him before. It allows him to be used to create a couple of choke-points. I found it to be little better than kiting, though.

[Redwall]

I just recruit him ASAP for his Javelin and +5 Def. Delaying his recruitment favors going for the RHS (edit: wait idk what I was thinking, it probably doesn't), except the RHS has more enemies. The lower enemy count on the LHS means that even if you take a while to clear them out, you can more easily open the door in time to take out the northwest Knight and control the chokepoint (without stepping in range of any other enemies behind the door) to hold off the encroaching enemies who start on the southeast of the map.

Edited January 13, 2014 by Miikaya

[XeKr]

iirc on my last L+ run it felt possible to do any C3 enemy configuration with a competent Avatar (near/below average) and Frederick (near base). Kellam is an important part of that because he can give +Def Pair Up without tying up Frederick (to trivialize cases of low Luna+ density) and is an extra unit with competent Str, (with a Javelin no less), for improved player phase offense. That's important b/c the only really hard part of C3 is avoiding the pincer in the bottom by clearing one of the bottom groups before the other arrives. The rest of the map can be kited.

Interesting to consider him as a meatshield, but I'm not exactly sure how it works. Don't you still get pincered?

[Czar_Yoshi]

Fighting with the Avatar and Frederick, sometimes with other partners and other times Paired Up with each other, and having the other units distract and hold off enemies encroaching from above the left passageway bounding the mountain. Distracting them is helpful to prevent the Avatar and Fred from being overwhelmed. I don't remember the exact details, but I doubt this differs much from Interceptor's guide. I had relatively few Luna+ spawns on my successful attempt, but even on a few of my unsuccessful ones that had more Luna+ enemies, I still had a low-but-reasonable chance (like, if an enemy missed an attack 80% true hit or something) at breaking through without casualties. This is kind of a small sample size from which to draw conclusions about the amount of luck you need, but yeah.

Actually, the vast majority of my deaths in Cht.2 with that strat were due to the squishies getting swarmed (yes, even moreso than Luna+ deaths, and it's a problem on vanilla Lunatic too).

What I wound up doing was pursuing a strat that gave me a 100% chance of luring exactly one Barbarian to the squishies who isn't a threat unless he has a Hawkeye/Vantage+ combo, and luring a Merc on the next turn. It has the added bonus of allowing Virion to trade the Elixir to Fred if I didn't have time on Cht.1. Then the only luck left is getting the right DSes to keep the path to the fort clear on turn 2. This assumes a favorable distribution, but the requirements for that are actually fairly lenient: the Barb on the mountain cannot have a Hawkeye/Vantage+ combo, and I can't fight more than one Luna+/Hawkeye enemy on EP1 (if the Merc in the forest has it along with another enemy, I'll need to crit/DS him to live). If I can make it to the fort on turn 2, my odds of surviving the bottom are at least 50%, which is pretty good for that map.

For Kellam and the pincer, what you'd do is kill all the LHS dudes by EP3 (don't aggro anything on PP1), open the door and kill the Knight (everyone else on top won't aggro until you get in their range) and then hold a chokepoint against the bottom RHS with Avatar, using your other units to clog up spaces to guard against Pass. Kellam is important in two scenarios here:

1) You don't have time to kill the Knight and have to hole up against the door instead. Your team will spill out a bit here, and Kellam should support Fred as one of the units spilling out.

2) The Archer will try to attack the person standing behind Avatar. Kellam can either help them stay alive, or potentially be that person himself.

Edited January 13, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

iirc on my last L+ run it felt possible to do any C3 enemy configuration with a competent Avatar (near/below average) and Frederick (near base). Kellam is an important part of that because he can give +Def Pair Up without tying up Frederick (to trivialize cases of low Luna+ density) and is an extra unit with competent Str, (with a Javelin no less), for improved player phase offense. That's important b/c the only really hard part of C3 is avoiding the pincer in the bottom by clearing one of the bottom groups before the other arrives. The rest of the map can be kited.

Interesting to consider him as a meatshield, but I'm not exactly sure how it works. Don't you still get pincered?

It still involved rushing down and killing the LHS. It sometimes buys an extra turn to kill the LHS (depending on what the RHS enemies get for skills) by using Kellam as a wall that the enemies won't attack, but it's pretty situational. That's why I said I found it didn't get results any better than murdering the LHS, then semi-kiting the RHS (and then turtling up and choke-pointing the stairs if necessary).

[Airship Canon]

So I'm pushing for C2ii's challenge right now, and after about 200 resets on "winnable" Ch 2 arrangements, I've realized it just wasn't happening with that MU.

So I rerolled, decided to go balls deep with save scumming [bookmark+Back Up Data = Infinitely Reloadable Bookmark].

Prologue came out nicely: 3 Perfect levels and then some.

Chapter 1 is -NOT- conductive to that, so I just went thru. The Levels were alright, but not the greatest.

Current MU: "Takeru" (because why not?) [+DEF/-LCK (Don't like going -SKL even for in game since while SKL isn't that important, it's more impactful than LCK, and enemy Crits don't exist outside of Mages on the Prologue)]

(He actually has 99 EXP, because I abused that derpy Archer)

Now here's the thing.

I'm on Chapter 2. Just got an arrangement that I'm iffy on.

ZERO Luna+. [Great, best thing ever, right?]

EVERYTHING has Hawkeye. [No one can dodge anything at all]

So while I'm backing that up, I'm not too sure on it...