BlueLeafeon Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 There is one thing this game hasn't quite made clear, and I've played it twice. What compelled the future avatar to become Grima? From the looks of the pre-prologue chapter and the cutscenes, the avatar was just as firm in his choice to oppose Validar as (s)he is in the main game's scenes...so how did (s)he come to choose sacrificing him/herself to become Grima? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 I think the opening cutscene made it clear that the avatar was forcibly possessed by Grima after Validar was defeated. At least, that's how I see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
algae Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 I just assumed that the war went differently, and Avatar wasn't able to resist when Grima took control. A lot of his/her plans rely on knowledge of what went wrong in the future (Including that plan to add a fake sphere to the fire emblem). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueLeafeon Posted February 22, 2013 Author Share Posted February 22, 2013 I think the opening cutscene made it clear that the avatar was forcibly possessed by Grima after Validar was defeated. At least, that's how I see it. Yes, but the way the avatar looks at his/her hand afterward like "D-did I do that?!" or "What have I done?!" made it seem like (s)he regained his/her senses afterward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CinderSkye Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Yes, but the way the avatar looks at his/her hand afterward like "D-did I do that?!" or "What have I done?!" made it seem like (s)he regained his/her senses afterward. I think it's just the Avatar still trying to resist, but ultimately failing. Repeatedly failing when it mattered most probably led to a psychological collapse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueLeafeon Posted February 22, 2013 Author Share Posted February 22, 2013 (edited) I think it's just the Avatar still trying to resist, but ultimately failing. Repeatedly failing when it mattered most probably led to a psychological collapse. Good point. It is very clear that the avatar is quick to blame him/herself. (Though not as quick as Lucina) Perhaps in the second time that cutscene plays, the avatar isn't really trying to resist at that point, but actually has startled out of it. Or perhaps the whole scene was a complete act? Edited February 22, 2013 by MagicLeafy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowofchaos Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 It's because Chrom stole his loved one. And had the mentality of "EVERYONE SHALL FEEL THE MISERY AND DESPAIR I FEEL" led him to not resist Fauder/Validar. I think the opening cutscene made it clear that the avatar was forcibly possessed by Grima after Validar was defeated. At least, that's how I see it. Well, as said in the game script... Fauder/Validar's powers were boosted by the Pedestal of Flames/Fire Emblem. So... yeah. Yes, but the way the avatar looks at his/her hand afterward like "D-did I do that?!" or "What have I done?!" made it seem like (s)he regained his/her senses afterward. That "Did I do that?" look at their hand felt to me as more of a Gimle/Grima is saying "Yeeeeeees. YEEEEEEES!" with their newfound body. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CinderSkye Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 (edited) Good point. It is very clear that the avatar is quick to blame him/herself. (Though not as quick as Lucina) Perhaps in the second time that cutscene plays, the avatar isn't really trying to resist at that point, but actually has startled out of it. Or perhaps the whole scene was a complete act? I don't know. I really wish they'd chekhov'd that scene (the plan, not the attack itself; that was QUITE chekhov'd). it was such a fantastic asspull, and I can be okay with those, but especially when it involves the character that is presumably me I would have liked to see some indication that I had a plan up my sleeve. Edited February 22, 2013 by CinderSkye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueLeafeon Posted February 22, 2013 Author Share Posted February 22, 2013 That "Did I do that?" look at their hand felt to me as more of a Gimle/Grima is saying "Yeeeeeees. YEEEEEEES!" with their newfound body. Hmmm...I can see that. I still wonder how the replay of that cutscene in chapter 22 is supposed to be interpreted, though. I don't know. I really wish they'd chekhov'd that scene. it was such a fantastic asspull, and I can be okay with those, but especially when it involves the character that is presumably me I would have liked to see some indication that I had a plan up my sleeve. What does 'checkhov'd' mean? ^^; Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowofchaos Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Hmmm...I can see that. I still wonder how the replay of that cutscene in chapter 22 is supposed to be interpreted, though. Well, Chrom explained that the Avatar weakened the magic strike right before it hit. Maybe they're like "did I do it right?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueLeafeon Posted February 22, 2013 Author Share Posted February 22, 2013 Well, Chrom explained that the Avatar weakened the magic strike right before it hit. Maybe they're like "did I do it right?" Hm...yeah, I'll go with that. XD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CinderSkye Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Hmmm...I can see that. I still wonder how the replay of that cutscene in chapter 22 is supposed to be interpreted, though. What does 'checkhov'd' mean? ^^; Chekhov's gun is a metaphor for a dramatic principle concerning simplicity and foreshadowing. It suggests that if one shows a loaded gun on stage in the first act of a play, it should be fired in a later act; otherwise, the gun should not be shown in the first place. The principle was articulated by Russian playwright Anton Chekhov and reported in various forms. "Chekhov's gun" is often used as an example of foreshadowing, with the sight of the gun preparing the audience for its eventual use. But the primary point of Chekhov's advice was to caution against including unnecessary elements in a story or its staging. Failure to observe the rule of "Chekhov's gun" may be cited by critics when discussing plot holes. The deliberate defiance of this principle may take the form of a red herring: something which the audience is meant to assume will be important to the plot's outcome, but ultimately is not. ---- In other words, I was wishing that they had foreshadowed some element of the Avatar's plan, even if it was as simple and small as the Avatar having a meeting with someone privately on the side in a previous chapter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acacia Sgt Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 (edited) Personally, I don't this this particular scene would've needed one, as it would take away some of the element of unexpectedness it has. Edited February 22, 2013 by Acacia Sgt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueLeafeon Posted February 22, 2013 Author Share Posted February 22, 2013 Chekhov's gun is a metaphor for a dramatic principle concerning simplicity and foreshadowing. It suggests that if one shows a loaded gun on stage in the first act of a play, it should be fired in a later act; otherwise, the gun should not be shown in the first place. The principle was articulated by Russian playwright Anton Chekhov and reported in various forms. "Chekhov's gun" is often used as an example of foreshadowing, with the sight of the gun preparing the audience for its eventual use. But the primary point of Chekhov's advice was to caution against including unnecessary elements in a story or its staging. Failure to observe the rule of "Chekhov's gun" may be cited by critics when discussing plot holes. The deliberate defiance of this principle may take the form of a red herring: something which the audience is meant to assume will be important to the plot's outcome, but ultimately is not. ---- In other words, I was wishing that they had foreshadowed some element of the Avatar's plan, even if it was as simple and small as the Avatar having a meeting with someone privately on the side in a previous chapter. Ah. Yeah. Instead, they went for "we're going to make them think they've lost the game again!" I think they were really aiming for pure horror and suspense with that scene. Or at least, I know that entire chapter had me going o_o "No I don't want to game over again DX" until Basillo showed up. After having played Star Ocean 3, I had felt like this game was going to be a similar plot--you're losing the whole game (despite winning) and even the ending is a loss on your part. So the game really had me hooked. XD "THIS GAME WILL HAVE A HAPPY ENDING RIGHT?! D8" Personally, I don't this this particular scene would've needed one, as it would take away some of the element of unexpectedness it has. True, true. They wanted you to feel like Lucina did, I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowofchaos Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 (edited) I was pretty much "WELL CRAP". "NOW WHAT?" The whole Premonition was executed well at the beginning of the game. Because you're like... well... a little frustrated when you get to that actual part of the game. You WANT something to retcon it. Them wanting you to feel that way is justification enough I'd think for the "asspull" that there was completely no indication that "you", the avatar, had a plan to counter it. Edited February 22, 2013 by shadowofchaos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CinderSkye Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Personally, I don't this this particular scene would've needed one, as it would take away some of the element of unexpectedness it has. Really good writing is perfectly capable of leaving you surprised but then going, "in hindsight, I can't believe I was too stupid to put that all together." I was just marveling over a really good instance of that at one of my favorite webcomics today, in fact. I didn't feel despair (the ending did a much better job of that). I felt it was pretty decent, but not despair; they'd so blatantly featured that cutscene that I knew that things weren't going to end that way. I just wish that the way they'd done it wasn't indistinguishable from someone talking themselves into a corner and then suddenly coming up with a retcon out of nowhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.M. Gei Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Yeah, I think this is pretty unambiguous as to what happened in the original timeline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fateborn Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Yeah, I think this is pretty unambiguous as to what happened in the original timeline. This. And beside. I believe in the first cutscene, it shows the Avatar steps back as the dark clouded in the hood, which suggest the Grima is taking the full control. In the second, the Avatar didn't which suggests Avatar is still avatar self. Without the real gems to charge the Fire Emblem, Avatar would never survives that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Lavos Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Homestly, it could have been solved by the avatar saying "Basilio and Flavia, I need to speak to you before you go." After Lucina said Bassy was gonna die by fighting Walhart, and then showing a convo of Bassy, Flavia and MU tallking about the plan when the big scene comes up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CinderSkye Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Yes. That'd have been great. Something as small as that. Even so, this is still in the very small category of Fire Emblem games with an enjoyable story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acacia Sgt Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Can't say how much I vouch the validity or effectiveness of it, but didn't Validar stated he had been in the know of their movements, with the reason the plan only ever worked was that since Basilio was left for death, that he pretty much fell off his radar? Actually, when it comes down to it, and assuming Validar was flawless in his claim, that said convo would've reasonably happened in the first place? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CinderSkye Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 There had to be communication between the Avatar and Basilio at some point, however surreptitious. Validar was keeping an eye on their movements, he didn't have all their tents bugged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sock Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 But if Validar was keeping an eye on them, how did the Avatar communicate with Basilio? Even if Basilio was off the radar, Validar would've been following Avatar-person, yes? The way they made it sound, it seemed as though those two communicated after Basilio's supposed death. If they talked before Basilio and Flavia took off, then that's fine. But it doesn't seem like that's the case at all... Of course, Basilio is probably just some INSANELY good actor and I've been completely fooled... You know, it actually does make sense. Was the gem that Basilio gave to Flavia to give to Chrom a fake? Because of Avatar's plan? When else would anyone have the chance to switch the gems? ...But, it wasn't mentioned that only one gem was fake; it sounded like they all were. Hmm... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CinderSkye Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Sending letters? Messengers? Apparently Flavia was in on the whole thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acacia Sgt Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Didn't Chrom mentioned feeling some sort of power coming from the Orb when Flavia gave it to him? I suppose, if that had been fake in the first place, to have been just another artifact imbued with power. But who knows... Anyway, the only thing that comes to mind about communication would be some sort of written message. Basilio did mentioned the Avatar was able to see the event in advance, so perhaps instead of having a talk that could be eavesdropped, he wrote it out, gave it to Basilio, possibly even with "Once you get your close call with Walhart, open this and follow it to the letter" written over it. But that's just heavily relying on assumptions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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