No Re-class Tier List

[kryptonite]

I know, "No Re-class?! Blasphemy!/Pointless!" Maybe so, but there are advantages like starting out in an innate class as opposed to having to re-class, and doing this eliminates the +10 levels a re-classed character would get, etc. Exception being Donnel of course.

Criteria:

- What they can contribute

- How much effort one needs to put into them before they contribute

Top:

MU

Frederick

Sumia

Chrom

High:

Anna

Libra

Sully

Cordelia

Stahl

Olivia

Mid:

Cherche

Lissa

Lon'qu

Gaius

Miriel

Vaike

Maribelle

Virion

Kellam

Nowi

Tharja

Low:

Tiki

Gregor

Panne

Say'ri

Henry

Ricken

Bottom:

Flavia

Basilio

Kettlehead:

Donnel

This is on Hard mode.

Edited March 6, 2013 by kryptonite

[Shinori]

Is this allowing the master seal at least to promote? If so then Sully is WAY too low. She's way too low anyway imo. Sully stomps through most of the game with no issue especially once she becomes a paladin.

Also anna should be higher as well seeing as she would be the best rescue user you could get in the game with Tharja being a close second. I personally think Lissa should be lower. Flavia and Basilio would be lower. They aren't that good for the game. Maybe in post game but during the game they aren't that good. Come in as filler and that's about it.

Iono. There are a lot of things that could be changed/argued and you have to specify if it's only second seals that aren't allowed to be used when talking about class changing. Is fred allowed to use a second seal to go from 20 GK to 1 GK? Stuff like that. But assuming they can at least promote this tier list is pretty far off.

If they can't promote then thats a little different.

[eclipse]

What criteria are you using to determine tier positions? I can't make heads or tails of it.

[Shinori]

Also yeh. Is it a tier for LTCing with no reclassing? If so all fliers are instantly top tier with gale force being better than deliverers. With Rescue users being right after that. And anna is instantly god tier, along with Libra being amazing.

Either way Tharja would be bad. Defintely not that high.

[kryptonite]

Yes, they can promote.

Criteria is being useful throughout the game and not being outclassed... Sully is that low because Stahl joins right after and is much better at every important stat save Spd.

But feel free to say what should go where...

[Anacybele]

Stahl needs to be much higher. This guy is absolute beast. He also outdoes Frederick by a good bit. And this is coming from a Frederick fangirl.

[Samias]

Uh... it's debatable whether Stahl is better than Sully or not but they're practically equal anyway. Just because you think she's outclassed is no reason for a two tier gap. Also I don't know what universe you live in where a character as immediately useful as Libra is in bottom tier. Same with Anna. I can't make heads or tails of the criteria here at all.

[Anacybele]

Well then, both Stahl and Sully need to be higher. I only brought up Stahl because my Sully got screwed and I don't know how good she's really supposed to be.

[Redwall]

You haven't really given an objective metric of "usefulness." Something like, for example, saving turns, is more well-defined than "being useful throughout the game," in which case Rescue users with high base Mag and Galeforce-capable units would be high tier.

[kryptonite]

Frederick is useful as a pairup unit for a good part of the game... As for Libra and Anna, you should already have Lissa or Maribelle for healing, and they don't have to resort to their low(er) Str to attack unlike the former... Anna is useful as a thief though...

But if you feel anything should be changed, I would like more specifics about why and where they should be moved... >_>

EDIT: okay, I'll change that...

Edited March 5, 2013 by kryptonite

[eclipse]

This list is missing Vaike, and thus, is not valid.

I have half a mind to completely rewrite this, because a lot of these rankings make no sense.

[kryptonite]

I didn't use Vaike, at all. >_> Well, I tried, but the game just threw too many units at me and I had to pick and choose and cut. So I forgot about him. XD

But if you want to make your own, go ahead... If there's reasons behind your placements and stuff I might replace mine. XD

[Samias]

I have problems with Stahl refusing to grow speed or res. Sully's much more balanced and is typically a lot more reliable on the speed front while maintaining a respectable strength and defence stat. PEMN but I find the differences between the cavs pretty negligible

Also, Nowi gets 2HKOed by the physical units in her joining chapter even when she's paired with Gregor. Without reclassing she has 5 mov forever. Her speed growth is somewhat unreliable on top of a poor base. How the heck is that top tier material? How is Cordelia mid tier when she is one of the few who can get Galeforce by this criteria, one of the best skills in the game? Same with Sumia.

Characters with functionally the same role with similar stats are wildly spread among tiers for no reason except a vague answer of "I think they're outclassed by x", which is poor justification of performance. It means they should tier lower but that doesn't instantly negate every one of their good points and send them to bottom tier. Anna and Libra are exceptionally good at what they do and compare favourably in stats to their healer counterparts. Libra even comes with usable strength and a good axe and staff rank and will probably have better stats than either Lissa or Maribelle when he joins. Anna is lightning fast, hits hard with a Levin Sword, does thievery, has 7 mov... she's great.

Donnel and Frederick are in the same tier, but if you're presumably doing a grind-allowed run, then Frederick would go down in usefulness, but if you're doing an efficient run with no grinding, Donnel is a pain in the butt in Hard mode and generally not worth the time. Where's your metric?

[Hawkeye]

You should really wait until at least completing the game once before making something like this, just saying. Anyway...

Anna needs to go way up, as has been said. Donnel is bottom tier forever, especially without reclassing since villager is so bad. All the fliers should be at least high and Sully is definitely nowhere near bottom tier, I'd say mid.

*Edit* I guess you're saying Donnel is exempt from the no-reclassing? Sort of strange since that's the entire point of the list.

*Double Edit* It would be good to specify which difficulty. I'm assuming normal though.

Edited March 5, 2013 by Hawkeye

[kryptonite]

I've beaten the game on Hard without grinding anyone (except the kids).

Sully has a 10% less HP/Str and 15% less Def growth than Stahl, in exchange for 10% Spd and 10% Res (and different bases of course). I guess it's not that big, but yeah...

Nowi starts out fragile, but with a 65% Def growth and a 50% Res growth, along with +10/7 Def/Res makes her a nice tank after gaining a few levels.

Ignoring how neither Sumia/Cordelia care about getting Galeforce if it means giving up on Lancefaire and Staves (seeing how both are terrible with tomes), I put Cordelia lower than Sumia for a couple reasons being that she joins later, and because despite having better HP/Def, she's still getting marred by arrows, although she does have a good Str growth.

Libra is very useful as a staff user, but his stats aren't anything special. In a game where everyone has good growths, his are only average, and his bases aren't anything to write home about either. Once Lissa/Maribelle promote, they'll have better stats, and have access to tomes, which is just better than axes.

I've used Donnel in HM, it was not fun, but it just took a couple units pinning off an archer and he finished it off a few times til he could hold his own. I guess you could argue those few turns could have been used to complete chapters a couple turns faster, but I'd argue it paid off having a unit not being raped by bosses later in the game...

And yes, this is on Hard mode... Although I can move that sentence to the top.

[Agro]

you have no fucking idea how to tier list do you

Ignoring how neither Sumia/Cordelia care about getting Galeforce if it means giving up on Lancefaire and Staves (seeing how both are terrible with tomes), I put Cordelia lower than Sumia for a couple reasons being that she joins later, and because despite having better HP/Def, she's still getting marred by arrows, although she does have a good Str growth.

This doesn't justify their huge discrepancy in placing.

Nowi starts out fragile, but with a 65% Def growth and a 50% Res growth, along with +10/7 Def/Res makes her a nice tank after gaining a few levels.

Meanwhile she's stuck at 6 move forever, has no good offensive skills (or defensive skills) apart from being able to smoosh wyverns

Sully has a 10% less HP/Str and 15% less Def growth than Stahl, in exchange for 10% Spd and 10% Res (and different bases of course). I guess it's not that big, but yeah...

Sully's base Spd lead on Stahl does wonders for her.

Libra is very useful as a staff user, but his stats aren't anything special. In a game where everyone has good growths, his are only average, and his bases aren't anything to write home about either. Once Lissa/Maribelle promote, they'll have better stats, and have access to tomes, which is just better than axes.

Yes, and Lissa and Maribelle will be stuck with E Tomes while only having marginally better stats. Meanwhile Libra has probably already gained a few levels from using so much Physic and Rescue (and he's better at using these thanks to a lead in base Mag) and will continue to be a reliable unit all the way through.

Flavia and Basilio should be a fuckload lower than they are. They're not even there for 90% of the game.

Edited March 5, 2013 by Agro

[kryptonite]

thank you

that was necessary

[eclipse]

Criteria:

- What they can contribute

- How much effort I need to put into them before they contribute

Top:

MU (obvious)

Frederick (isn't locked to 1-range for half his life, gives good defensive bonuses, and can still be useful with effective weapons as a paired partner)

Sumia (she flies, gets Galeforce, and can marry a certain dude that can help fix her awful durability)

Chrom (would be higher, but is swordlocked until promotion, and then has to contend with E lances)

High:

Anna (she's got a lot of utility early on; her biggest drawback is lack of good supports, followed by being frail, followed by the general lack of Levin Swords, which she uses to good effect, unlike most other sword units)

Libra (comes later than Anna, and can Hammer some pretty annoying things; unlike Anna, gets supports, BUT is less likely to dodge, kill stuff, and doesn't have the option of being an Acrobat ferry)

Sully (gets more screen time than Cordelia, has better weapon selection, and can auto-marry Chrom if you're desperate for supports)

Cordelia (the only things holding her back are her join time, and the fact that she can't auto-marry Chrom)

Stahl (see Sully, subtract marriage and a good chunk of Speed, which kind of screws him over)

Olivia (dancer/10)

Mid:

Cherche (she, uh, flies and gets Deliverer; too bad she comes so late with suspect Speed)

Lissa (staff utility with better supports but worse durability)

Lon'qu (he can donate his Speed to someone, and even if sword-lock sucks, can get Bows or pass some sweet Swordmaster skills, which help)

Gaius (can pass some pretty amazing skills to his children, and can do something about someone's Speed if it's falling behind)

Miriel (early 1-2 range hitting RES is nice, as is pairing with someone who gives some durability; she can also pass Tomefaire to Laurent for instant pain)

Vaike (good Strength, early Hammer, but if he Speed doesn't grow, he's in trouble, even as a Hero)

Maribelle (see Lissa with less durability and screen time)

Virion (being a natural bow user is somewhat useful this time, especially with the amount of stupid flying units)

Kellam (hitch a ride, go Great Knight for full weapon triangle control, and pass down Luna, which is more than what everyone else below him can do)

Tiki (1-2 range is nice, being somewhat tanky is nice, but her support options are stupidly limited)

Gregor (eh, he can give some kid Sol, but sword lock until promotion kinda bites)

Low:

Nowi (1-2 range is nice, being somewhat tanky is nice, but her skills blow chunks, and so does her Speed)

Tharja (Nosfertanking's useless if she can't heal damage fast enough, which she has problems with early; so is a general lack of Nosferatu tomes for a long time. She's got an availability lead on Henry, though)

Panne (her skills are terrible, as well as being locked to 1-range; her best contribution is donating her Speed to someone)

Say'ri (decent stats are offset by swords and meager supports)

Henry (he absolutely needs a speedy partner, and they're usually gone by the time he shows up; also, he fights with Tharja for that Nosferatu tome early on)

Ricken (why does he have the wrong combination of speed and early durability? At least Henry can kind of keep himself alive)

Bottom:

Flavia (she's faster, which means less likely to be doubled)

Basilio (Speed's important, yo)

Donnel (he is a royal pain in the ass to level, and even if you do, he's stuck in a class with crappy bases)

Wouldn't mind some constructive criticism!

[Hawkeye]

I just assumed you hadn't completed it because you said you don't have all the kids, my bad.

It's fine to think Sully is worse than Stahl, in fact without reclassing I'd say I agree with you. The point is that saying there are 12 units who are worse than Stahl but better than Sully is ridiculous.

I agree with what you said about Nowi, but "a nice tank after gaining a few levels" is hardly worth being considered the third best unit in the game, when there are units who are good right off the bat and grow to be excellent.

Everyone cares about Galeforce, it's the most overpowered skill in FE to date. Cordelia doesn't join that much later and is quite a bit stronger than Sumia. Arrow vulnerability has never stopped fliers from being top units.

The whole point of Libra being useful is that he doesn't require all that work that Lissa and Maribelle do before they promote. Especially on higher difficulties, it helps a lot.

Better way to stop Donnel being raped by the boss is to not use him.

*Edit* eclipse that is a very accurate list, although I think Cordelia>Sully, personally. Guess it depends on how much we focus on LTC.

Edited March 5, 2013 by Hawkeye

[Thor Odinson]

I probably wouldn't put Flavia and Bas in the same tier as Donnel since they can actually do something even if it's just for a few chapters as filler, vs his massive pain-in-the-ass bases that just isn't really worth even touching unless you grind and grinding + tier lists don't really go together well.

Edited March 5, 2013 by Thor Odinson

[Agro]

honestly the idea of a tier list for anything other than an efficiency PT in this game is just laughable

[eclipse]

I just assumed you hadn't completed it because you said you don't have all the kids, my bad.

It's fine to think Sully is worse than Stahl, in fact without reclassing I'd say I agree with you. The point is that saying there are 12 units who are worse than Stahl but better than Sully is ridiculous.

I agree with what you said about Nowi, but "a nice tank after gaining a few levels" is hardly worth being considered the third best unit in the game, when there are units who are good right off the bat and grow to be excellent.

Everyone cares about Galeforce, it's the most overpowered skill in FE to date. Cordelia doesn't join that much later and is quite a bit stronger than Sumia. Arrow vulnerability has never stopped fliers from being top units.

The whole point of Libra being useful is that he doesn't require all that work that Lissa and Maribelle do before they promote. Especially on higher difficulties, it helps a lot.

Better way to stop Donnel being raped by the boss is to not use him.

*Edit* eclipse that is a very accurate list, although I think Cordelia>Sully, personally. Guess it depends on how much we focus on LTC.

Noted, thanks~! I kind of like Sully because she exists longer, and because she has that potential auto-S support (which helps to make up for Cordelia's absence). It has nothing to do with my dislike of Severa, I swear!

I probably wouldn't put Flavia and Bas in the same tier as Donnel since they can actually do something even if it's just for a few chapters as filler, vs his massive pain-in-the-ass bases that just isn't really worth even touching unless you grind and grinding + tier lists don't really go together well.

Eh. He gives a Bronze Lance, which Chrom appreciates. . .and that's about it, really. On Hard Mode, I didn't find Basilio/Flavia to be good filler, because the former lacked Speed, and the latter lacked durability. Kind of thinking of switching them because Silver Bows rock, but getting into range without getting killed is another story.

Y'know what, if I ever get around to updating it, I'll give Donnel his own tier.

[kryptonite]

I'll just replace my list with eclipse's... >_>

I just assumed you hadn't completed it because you said you don't have all the kids, my bad.

It's fine to think Sully is worse than Stahl, in fact without reclassing I'd say I agree with you. The point is that saying there are 12 units who are worse than Stahl but better than Sully is ridiculous.

I agree with what you said about Nowi, but "a nice tank after gaining a few levels" is hardly worth being considered the third best unit in the game, when there are units who are good right off the bat and grow to be excellent.

Everyone cares about Galeforce, it's the most overpowered skill in FE to date. Cordelia doesn't join that much later and is quite a bit stronger than Sumia. Arrow vulnerability has never stopped fliers from being top units.

The whole point of Libra being useful is that he doesn't require all that work that Lissa and Maribelle do before they promote. Especially on higher difficulties, it helps a lot.

Better way to stop Donnel being raped by the boss is to not use him.

Thanks for the constructive post. For Nowi, I feel that the characters in this game lack in Def/Res so having a tank is a good thing. As for Libra, it's not like Lissa/Maribelle have any competition for healing, at least til Libra arrives. :P I can see your point about the others though.

As for eclipse's list, I'd move Lissa (and maybe Maribelle) up just because they're there before Libra/Anna exist.

Same reason for Nowi going above Tiki (at the very least). With Dragonstones being buyable, and there even being DS+, there isn't any reason for Nowi to ever run out even on a normal playthrough.

Tharja might start out kind of average/mediocre, but she has extremely high growths in Mag/Spd/Def, making her one of the best units in the game IMO, since she targets enemies' usually lower defensive stat to boot.

That said, Ricken (and maybe Henry) could move down because of their low Spd (Was my Henry the only one getting doubled on his premier chapter, and not exactly laughing off the damage?).

Flavia and Basilio I find strange you would put here since they start out with awesome bases, even moreso on higher difficulties. The only thing is that their supports suck, and that they join late. It's like with Say'ri and Lon'qu, except they're probably better than their counterparts (well, not Basilio's Spd compared to Vaike's >_>)

[Thor Odinson]

One thing you should know about tier lists is that availability is taken pretty heavily into consideration, and Flavia/Bas, my favourite characters as they are, kinda don't have a lot of chapters going on for them. At all. And that hurts on most tier list standards even if/though they're fine to actually use on whatever little chapters they get to be used for.

Do give Donnel his own tier. Like "totally not worth it tier".

Edited March 5, 2013 by Thor Odinson

[Hawkeye]

I agree about Nowi and Tharja. Maybe both of them just above Tiki? With Tharja>Nowi I think but I'm not too sure.

*Edit* just switch Nowi/Tharja with Tiki/Gregor. I'm not sure about Tiki but I'd definitely consider Gregor low tier

Edited March 5, 2013 by Hawkeye