I finally used Levn!Arthur

[Chiki]

Uh, no, you don't want a bunch of people attacking Alvis because either a) he'll ohko them or b) they do insignificant damage. Assuming both Levin and Fury were level 30 (hint: they won't be) by the end of ch 5, Sety needs roughly 10 levels before facing Alvis just to avoid being ohkoed. So no, he (or Arthur) is not someone you want to have fighting Alvis. It's better just to have Aless and Celice just wail on him themselves. Arthur has no problem dispatching Ishtar or anyone else of significance . Sety theoretically doing 5 more damage is pointless, because the end result is the same. Arthur's likely going to inherit the pursuit ring from Levin if he's in play with Tiltyu, since who the hell else uses it as effectively as those two (pursuit's the only actual credible argument you brought up besides efficiency, however). You're also going to have to explain to me how Sety even has a slimmer of a chance to orko Alvis, because pulling off 5 hits (3 continues) at sub 50 hit rate is practically impossible in one round.

As for advantages, can you not read? He has a horse, meaning once Sety joins, he's killing everything important alongside Celice while Sety's cleaning up useless crap like Areone's wyvern squad. That is infinitely more important than Sety's high mag (which he won't reach) and speed cap. He also happens to exist for the first half of the game, unlike Sety.

I find it interesting you've never explained exactly how Arthur's worse caps make him (relevantly) worse in combat than Sety (can't get rid of your generalizing problem can you). I thought it was common knowledge that we compare performances/stats throughout the game, not level 30 stats, because Sety will never reach his mag cap, let alone at level 30 or even close to that. Sety doesn't 2-3hko anything that Arthur doesn't.

How's he going to be doing this if they're already dead by the time he gets to them

Ever heard of Reserve staffs? You can attack Alvis with as many people as you like (as long as he doesn't OHKO anyone, and the only people who won't get OHKOed are gonna be Holyn's children, Celice, Aless, and Sety), though Sety can even one round him with 30 mag (maybe a Magic Ring) with ridiculously low odds, which I grant. But it shows how superior Sety is to Arthur.

Who else wants the Pursuit Ring? Maybe Leaf, who actually needs it as opposed to Arthur who has a 60% Continue chance? Didn't you yourself claim that Holsety Arthur was overkill anyway thanks to Wrath? Leaf doesn't have that.

It's almost trivial to get Sety to level 30 in casual play.. lol. Speed should cap in a few levels for Sety. You don't know much about this game do you?

I think we can agree that Holsety Sety is absolutely better than Holsety Arthur in casual play. Multiple people have already agreed with Sety's advantages over Arthur. And we've already established Sety always wins in proper efficient play. The only realm in which Arthur does win is in a playthrough which makes some arbitrary line between casualness and efficiency.

Edited April 6, 2013 by Olwen

[Constable Reggie]

though Sety can even one round him with 30 mag (maybe a Magic Ring) with ridiculously low odds, which I grant. But it shows how superior Sety is to Arthur.

This alone makes it painfully obvious you didn't bother to read my post. I'll give you the same courtesy and not bother reading yours.

edit: actually I did for the laughs

It's almost trivial to get Sety to level 30 in casual play.. lol. Speed should cap in a few levels for Sety. You don't know much about this game do you?

*Refutes a claim I never made

Didn't you yourself claim that Holsety Arthur was overkill anyway thanks to Wrath?

I never once mentioned wrath

Multiple people have already agreed with Sety's advantages over Arthur.

Not one person in this thread mentioned or agreed with Sety's so called advantages over Arthur, besides a vague "Sety can handle peg sisters better" comment

If you're going to just ignore my posts or make up crap, then you really shouldn't bother pretending that you're replying to it

Edited April 6, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[Chiki]

This alone makes it painfully obvious you didn't bother to read my post. I'll give you the same courtesy and not bother reading yours.

I've no idea what you're even talking about. Let me lay it out for you.

1. In casual play, Arthur and Sety are both going to be capped and are both going to reach their stat caps as well. We can agree on this.

2. The Pursuit Ring is going to Leaf, who really needs it, unlike Arthur. Debatable but I think this is true. Leaf is going to make a lot more use out of this than 55 might and 60% Continue Arthur is. Sety is going to have Pursuit; Arthur isn't.

3. Sety has higher magic than Arthur. I don't know how much higher, but I'll say around 4-6.

4. Sety, with a Magic Ring, which no one particularly needs, has around 60 might, which I believe is enough to hit 20 on Alvis.

5. With Continue, Pursuit and no Great Shield activations, Sety ORKOs Alvis.

6. Arthur can never do this, assuming the Pursuit Ring goes to Leaf.

Edited April 6, 2013 by Olwen

[Constable Reggie]

1. In casual play, Arthur and Sety are both going to be capped and are both going to reach their stat caps as well. We can agree on this.

Is it really so hard to actually check base stats and growth rates (oh look generalizations where have I seen this before)? Clearly you haven't, because if you did, you'd see that Sety will never cap mag. He gets up to roughly 26 mag.

I'm (for real this time) not going to bother reading or replying to the rest of your post, since it's difficult to get past this wall of ignorance in front of me.

Edited April 6, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[Sublime Manic]

I really have no interest in participating in this debate, but Leaf DOES get Pursuit after he promotes and then he no longer needs the ring, supposing he's entitled to it in the first place.

Also, aren't there TWO Magic Rings? It's been a while so I don't remember.

Edit: There ARE two Magic Rings. The second one being obtained in… Alvis's chapter. So uh… no need for them to compete for one at that point.

Edited April 6, 2013 by Sublime Manic

[Chiki]

Arthur won't be able to buy the Pursuit Ring if he doesn't inherit it. The cost of Holsety is too much. And it's irrational to give it to him when Celice and Aless can take on Alvis themselves, with difficulty.

And I didn't mean they'd reach all their caps. Lol. Obviously he wouldn't reach his strength cap would he?

Edited April 6, 2013 by Olwen

[Renall]

Arthur won't be able to buy the Pursuit Ring if he doesn't inherit it. The cost of Holsety is too much. And it's irrational to give it to him when Celice and Aless can take on Alvis themselves, with difficulty.

And I didn't mean they'd reach all their caps. Lol. Obviously he wouldn't reach his strength cap would he?

Ced Sety not reaching his MAG cap is sort of relevant when MAG is his attacking stat and his average is a whopping one point higher than Arthur's cap. Granted Arthur doesn't, on average, hit his cap either.

[Chiki]

I didn't say he would reach it. I did say there'd be a 3-6 magic difference.

[Sublime Manic]

Arthur won't be able to buy the Pursuit Ring if he doesn't inherit it. The cost of Holsety is too much. And it's irrational to give it to him when Celice and Aless can take on Alvis themselves, with difficulty.

So… things that make Arthur more effective against Alvis needn't be regarded given Aless and Celice can handle him, but Sety being more useful for that boss than Arthur, lack of a mount aside, IS worth regarding, despite Aless and Celice being able to handle him?

Also, if I recall correctly, the Bargain Ring from chapter 2 is pretty easily obtained by Levin, also, so whatever Holsety user I have, they usually get to inherit it for cheaper Holsety and the opportunity to buy whatever they want more easily. If Arthur has the Bargain Ring, I don't think purchasing the Pursuit Ring is all that unfeasible.

Edited April 6, 2013 by Sublime Manic

[Chiki]

The fact that Arthur needs these resources when Sety doesn't just proves how superior Sety is, lol. Bargain can go to Shanan, Altenna, Aless, etc. whereas Pursuit can go to Leaf and others without Pursuit. Arthur does not have a monopoly on either.

[Constable Reggie]

Sety doesn't have a horse and doesn't exist for half the game. If you don't understand those overwhelmingly negative attributes in comparison to Arthur, then you should probably actually try playing Fe4.

Edited April 6, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[Sublime Manic]

The fact that Arthur has more availability than Sety proves how superior Arthur is, lol. Look! I can make inane comments in a off-putting tone, too!

Arthur with Holsety is Holsety on a mount. Holsety is your only divine weapon with constant 1-2 range. An Arthur with Holsety is seeing a LOT more combat than most people - certainly more than foot units or thanks-for-finally-joining-Altenna. A Holsety-wielding Arthur inheriting and keeping the Bargain Ring just makes sense because it'll save you more money that way.

And if Arthur has the gold to buy the Pursuit Ring after Leaf is done with it who else is going to want it? It benefits Leaf to sell it when he's done with it, and whomever happens to have the Bargain Ring certainly has an easier time getting other things.

Arthur making superior use of resources compared to Sety doesn't make Sety superior. It makes Arthur the superior user of said resources.

Edited April 6, 2013 by Sublime Manic

[Chiki]

There aren't many hard moments in the game till Chapter 9, when you fight Areone. Arthur's availability doesn't mean anything.

Mounts mean little in a casual context.

Lol let's give Arthur points for taking up resources! You guys are no good at this game.

[Sublime Manic]

Wow, you say some really stupid things. And you seem to especially love constructing arguments for other people they're not actually making themselves.

Not worth the bother. Have a nice day.

[Constable Reggie]

Agreed. Brushing off mounts just because of casual play is also rather hilarious, because he consistently ignores the several painfully obvious advantages a horse unit has over a foot unit. I'd love to see Ayra and Holyn try to rescue Nodion. But nope, "horses are pointless in casual" is totally a substantiated and credible claim to make.

Edited April 6, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[Chiki]

Agreed. Brushing off mounts just because of casual play is also rather hilarious, because he consistently ignores the several painfully obvious advantages a horse unit has over a foot unit. I'd love to see Ayra and Holyn try to rescue Nodion. But nope, "horses are pointless in casual" is totally a substantiated and credible claim to make.

Of course it is. Casuals can do whatever they like. Though if you want to discuss efficiency, I'm totally up to that.

[Junkhead]

While it is kind of implied that the OP is taking place in a casual-play sceneario, is it really alright for us to be arguing about it in a casual scenerio ourselves to decide which choice is superior?

As far as I can tell, the OP only really wished to state his opinion on this, without it having to be debated since he really didn't open up a discussion.

Not to start a flame or debate

- Topic description

Not that I really mind the debate itself. It was actually a pretty interesting read, even for someone who very rarely plays this game like myself.

[Chiki]

I don't mind arguing against Arthur in an efficient context. He won't even exist in an efficiency playthrough, as he costs turns to create and doesn't give you any back (Celice will be doing the majority of the work).

Edited April 7, 2013 by Olwen

[Narga_Rocks]

Do you have proof? It's easy to make a statement. I can make a statement that everything is dead before Sety gets there and without proof it's just as valid as yours. I mean, Levin x Tiltyu both have the same move, but Levin obviously has better survival chances doing stuff so maybe she can't trail around him or something, but it seems like you should be able to pull off the pairing without costing turns. Why not? There's been a few fast plays on this forum, so maybe pull numbers of turns from the ones that made the pairing compared to yours that didn't or something. Also, have you tried to make the pairing without costing yourself turns?

edit: wait, does levin have 6 move? I forget, probably. Tiltyu needs to promote to get 6 move, so that's a potential problem. The question then is how much does Levin actually do to cut turns that he can't be tied to Tiltyu.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Narga_Rocks

[CT075]

in an absolute lowest turncount run tiltyu isn't getting paired period (and i'm like 80% sure that levin!fury isn't happening either)

if you loosen up by a bit though then it's a bit more likely

[Momentai~]

Don't Levin and Fury have a conversation that instantly pairs them in chapter 4? Or is it that Fury will be nowhere near Levin to initiate the conversation in lowest turn count runs?

[Sasori]

I never actually tried this pairing since I'm kind of an Azel/Tiltyu and Levin/fury fan, so I don't really know much about this combo.

Still doesn't Levn/Arthur run into some early game problems? Holsety on a horse is great, but Arthur is stuck with 5 moves and without pursuit until he promotes. The leg and pursuit ring can negate this problem, but I was under the impression that the leg ring usually went to Celice and the pursuit ring isn't uncontested either since Leaf wants it to get past his sucky phase faster.

Holsety is a little overkill for Sety, but I wonder when Levn Arthur will promote considering his lack of pursuit and the fact that relying completely on holsety isn't very cheap.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Sasori

[Chiki]

I've tried and seen FE4 LTCs myself. Levin/Tiltyu takes around 7 more turns than the lowest possible efficiency run, and that's assuming you can stick them together all the time.

You can get Holsety Sety in an efficiency playthrough. They have a convo.

I'll go see if I can find some numbers that I mentioned previously.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Olwen

[Kiriane]

I'm pretty sure it's because 100% efficiency doesn't capture that castle.

[CT075]

from my ltc run (granted i'm not actually the greatest at this) i managed to get levintiltyu about 3 turns before clearing c5, levin/fury didn't have the option to have the talk (i don't even remember if i captured the holsety castle; arthur didn't do anything anyway)

this was no-abuse though so levin/tiltyu had some turns to sit tight while i waited out the inevitable greatshields