This sucks

[Rehab]

I was going to say something about how there's an infinite number of ways to make thieves stand out more even without a blanket combat upgrade/swords as strong as everybody else, but then I remembered people are talking about knives more than thieves as a whole. Oop.

But yeah, there are plenty of cool things the developers could do with a whole weapon type. What they're comfortable doing and how they should be balanced (or how they'd be most likely to handle it, in the event there's a difference), I'm less sure.

[Interceptor]

Except that the inability to forge Daggers in FE10 is immaterial to the question of whether or not they should have been included in FE13, since you can forge every non-legendary weapon, cooking implement and log you come across.

Forging doesn't have the same place in this game that it did in FE10. There's no "welcome to the Shepherds, here's your max MT critforge" stuff in Awakening. It's super-expensive to forge weapons in this game.

And the basics are important. You compared a Silver Dagger to a naked Silver Sword... why? Forged Steel swords are better, vanilla Steel/Silver Blades are better, forged Silver is obviously far superior. You can't ignore the heavy weapons if you're going to pretend that Daggers are "competitive" with Swords in FE10.

[euklyd]

I would only approve of knives if they were a sup-type of Swords. Because I want a 1-2 range physical sword that isn't A rank and legendary, so that I can train my high Str units in Sword-wielding classes without having to use an abysmal Mag stat.

If we're just gonna add another weapon type, let it be Light tomes. And for gods sakes, don't let Sages wield knives.

[Sasori]

I always liked the idea to give Assasins a damage boost If they attacked someone from behind.

Other then that there should be more thieving stuff. Awakening lacks it a little since there aren't that many chests and I don't believe I've seen much doors either. That and no stealing weapons this time.

[Naglfar]

I'd liked to have seen knives come back in this game in a way that isn't cumbersome like they kinda were in Tellius. Perhaps as thief/assassin-exclusive swords, kind of like the myrmidon/swordmaster swords we've had since forever. Slightly lower might, higher crit and 1-2 range would at least make thieves a unique combat class. Maybe make Lethality only proc off knives? Thieves are clearly not designed like modern dancers, because one class was given swords as a joke while the other is at least somewhat capable of fighting if you really want it to be. The latter doesn't have to be good, just interesting, or at least not just shitty myrmidons. I want a reason to use a thief regularly beyond not having to bench someone else whenever there's a chest to open.

[HeroMystic]

There's a few problems with Daggers in FE10, first being is they weren't fleshed out well (much like Crossbows). They didn't have the versatility of the other weapon groups and they certainly didn't have any heavy versions of themselves. The second and perhaps the biggest problem is the lack of forges.

I personally don't want to see Daggers return, simply because in order to make them comparable to the other weapon classes, you basically have to make them swords anyway.

[BrightBow]

Forging doesn't have the same place in this game that it did in FE10. There's no "welcome to the Shepherds, here's your max MT critforge" stuff in Awakening. It's super-expensive to forge weapons in this game.

And the basics are important. You compared a Silver Dagger to a naked Silver Sword... why? Forged Steel swords are better, vanilla Steel/Silver Blades are better, forged Silver is obviously far superior. You can't ignore the heavy weapons if you're going to pretend that Daggers are "competitive" with Swords in FE10.

Well, FE10 required you to earn 50 forge points before you could forge anything.Which probably wasn't all that cheap.

It's just that the system was completely removed during localization. Given that you can now forge a Light tome that is superior to Ellight in any way while still being cheaper, it's quite clear that nobody took into account on how this affects game balance.

It's unfair to hold this sledgehammer adjustment against knives.

Edited April 26, 2013 by BrightBow

[Interceptor]

^ Or they realized it was dumb, and fixed it. Localization also got us the PRF weapons for the Dawn Brigade, which really needed them. Regardless, it is what it is. Forges were a big part of FE10, even in the case where they could be limited-availability. It was much the same with FE9, and the one-per-chapter limit.

Daggers missed out, and it was huge.

[Quick]

^ Or they realized it was dumb, and fixed it. Localization also got us the PRF weapons for the Dawn Brigade, which really needed them. Regardless, it is what it is. Forges were a big part of FE10, even in the case where they could be limited-availability. It was much the same with FE9, and the one-per-chapter limit.Daggers missed out, and it was huge.

The whole forging system in JP FE10 was fairly balanced actually and it makes part 3 at least slightly harder. Although I agree that daggers san Stilleto, Beast Killer, and Baselard were pretty meh and I never used other daggers much.

Edited April 26, 2013 by Quick

[Anouleth]

Forging doesn't have the same place in this game that it did in FE10. There's no "welcome to the Shepherds, here's your max MT critforge" stuff in Awakening. It's super-expensive to forge weapons in this game.

And the basics are important. You compared a Silver Dagger to a naked Silver Sword... why? Forged Steel swords are better, vanilla Steel/Silver Blades are better, forged Silver is obviously far superior. You can't ignore the heavy weapons if you're going to pretend that Daggers are "competitive" with Swords in FE10.

I never said that Daggers were competitive with Swords in FE10, I said they had competitive base stats, and they do. They are hampered by a lack of forgeability and variety (like not getting Blade equivalents, having no Brave equivalent). But many people in this thread talk about them like they were bad because they had awful numbers attached to them, when they didn't. Comments like "The last thing we want is thieves having even crappier Atk", or "daggers have to have better might".

The whole forging system in JP FE10 was fairly balanced actually and it makes part 3 at least slightly harder. Although I agree that daggers san Stilleto, Beast Killer, and Baselard were pretty meh and I never used other daggers much.

Actually, isn't it completely irrelevant in Part 3 because you can just buy and sell dirt cheap Steel Poleaxes and get forgepoints that way? To produce enough points to make a forge, it only actually costs about 700 gold, quite aside from all the points they get from selling off old or useless equipment anyway. So it really only screws over the DB.

[arvilino]

I never said that Daggers were competitive with Swords in FE10, I said they had competitive base stats, and they do. They are hampered by a lack of forgeability and variety (like not getting Blade equivalents, having no Brave equivalent). But many people in this thread talk about them like they were bad because they had awful numbers attached to them, when they didn't. Comments like "The last thing we want is thieves having even crappier Atk", or "daggers have to have better might".

Actually, isn't it completely irrelevant in Part 3 because you can just buy and sell dirt cheap Steel Poleaxes and get forgepoints that way? To produce enough points to make a forge, it only actually costs about 700 gold, quite aside from all the points they get from selling off old or useless equipment anyway. So it really only screws over the DB.

Also I'd imagine in the chapter you get the Silver Card you could basically amass an infinite amount of Forge Points just by constantly buying and selling weapons at the same price.

[Quick]

Also I'd imagine in the chapter you get the Silver Card you could basically amass an infinite amount of Forge Points just by constantly buying and selling weapons at the same price.

You couldn't, you don't get any forge points when you have the silver card.

[Vashiane]

FE10's daggers were fairly dismal weapons - I never used them personally.

Now, if the daggers had special properties attached to them, like dual attacking (one for the initial hit, registered as physical/sword damage and one for the special effect, like say said dagger also did fire damage), then that would be interesting.

And if daggers got their own rank and whatnot, what classes would use them? Thief/Trickster/Assassins, definitely, but besides them, who? It seems like a very limited weapon, like how Dark Magic is reduced to Dark Mages/Sorcerers in Awakening.

*edit because I fail at basic things like typing.

Edited April 26, 2013 by Vashiane

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

You couldn't, you don't get any forge points when you have the silver card.

What about buying a bunch of junk with the card, then after selling the card off, selling that junk back?

Anyway, as far as knives go, maybe status effect duty could have been shunted over to Thieves? Low mt, low uses, 1~2 range, high cost weapons with side effects. Aside from the usual Silence and Sleep (Berserk would probably be a bad idea with the Thief so close), there could be stat debilitation, probably grouped into something like -4 Str/Mag, -4 Spd/Move reduced to 1, -4 Def/Res. It would add some decisive strategic options early game (or at least on Lunatic, where enemies typically won't get one rounded until MU gets fed a ton of kills) and then provide some utility through mid-late game (and allowing to contribute some unique assistance in tougher DLC). Oh and rolling with the knives for Lethality thing mentioned above, maybe there could be some sort of deadly poison knife that increases Lethality chance by 10%. (All numbers off the top of my head, so obviously it would have to be balanced around some playtesting).

^Heh, seems we were on something of a wavelength, albeit with different solutions.

[Vashiane]

^ The only thing about poison is that poison isn't an InstantOHKO. I know, I know, this is fiction and fiction can do as it damn near pleases, but even in fiction poison's usually a DOT attack.

Maybe... maybe the knife could have a paralyzer inside it, which can justify the higher chance for Lethality. Your unit has time to line up the OHKO attack then.

Ooh. Okay... lemme think for a second.

Neuro.

Accessable at Dagger Rank D.

Has a MT of 1-2 (wouldn't need a high MT, really.)

Has a Hit of 30%.

Has a Crit of 0% (doesn't need to crit.)

It's a skill +5 weapon, which has the skill Neuro attached to it. The Neuro skill is triggered by Skill Stat / 2 and renders the enemy unit attacked by it unable to move during an entire phase (so if they're attacked on the Player phase, they can't attack or move on the Enemy phrase and vice versa). And attacking a paralyzed unit could increase the chance of Lethality occuring, if applicable. If the unit attacking doesn't have Lethality, it could instead increase the chance of a critical hit.

So, what do you think about that?

[Elieson]

Like Stun minus the added dmg?

[Vashiane]

Like Stun minus the added dmg?

Yeah, pretty much. ; ]

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

^ The only thing about poison is that poison isn't an InstantOHKO. I know, I know, this is fiction and fiction can do as it damn near pleases, but even in fiction poison's usually a DOT attack.

Maybe... maybe the knife could have a paralyzer inside it, which can justify the higher chance for Lethality. Your unit has time to line up the OHKO attack then.

Ooh. Okay... lemme think for a second.

Neuro.

Accessable at Dagger Rank D.

Has a MT of 1-2 (wouldn't need a high MT, really.)

Has a Hit of 30%.

Has a Crit of 0% (doesn't need to crit.)

It's a skill +5 weapon, which has the skill Neuro attached to it. The Neuro skill is triggered by Skill Stat / 2 and renders the enemy unit attacked by it unable to move during an entire phase (so if they're attacked on the Player phase, they can't attack or move on the Enemy phrase and vice versa). And attacking a paralyzed unit could increase the chance of Lethality occuring, if applicable. If the unit attacking doesn't have Lethality, it could instead increase the chance of a critical hit.

So, what do you think about that?

Well, some poisons are pretty fast acting and can be so excruciatingly painfully incapitating that for all intents and purposes, that person would be dead.

Neuro sounds like a fun idea. Make it tank the unit's avoid too so that if the Assassin's first hit applies the debuff, he can get the crit/Lethality bonus (maybe even throw both bonuses on together so while any unit can benefit, only an Assassin can truly make the best use of the opportunity) from the second. The hit on the weapon might also have to be a bit more surefire to make it worth the gamble of using it over the raw power of a sword or bow.

[Quick]

What about buying a bunch of junk with the card, then after selling the card off, selling that junk back?

If you're referring to during the chapter, you can't sell off, afterwards yeah. Problem is you can't infinitely get forges since with low money and a finite amount of weapons and you can only get so far.

[Vashiane]

Well, some poisons are pretty fast acting and can be so excruciatingly painfully incapitating that for all intents and purposes, that person would be dead.

Neuro sounds like a fun idea. Make it tank the unit's avoid too so that if the Assassin's first hit applies the debuff, he can get the crit/Lethality bonus (maybe even throw both bonuses on together so while any unit can benefit, only an Assassin can truly make the best use of the opportunity) from the second. The hit on the weapon might also have to be a bit more surefire to make it worth the gamble of using it over the raw power of a sword or bow.

True, but a majority of poisons that powerful aren't easy to get a hold of.

Ah! That's a good point there, nice. I dropped the hit that low so it wouldn't be ultimately broken... so if I boost the hit by about 15-20% but give it a small amount of uses (like 10?) and maybe make a Stun-immune skill for bosses that will increase its useability a bit but not make it overpowered and easy to spam?

[Elieson]

Dragon skin >_>

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

True, but a majority of poisons that powerful aren't easy to get a hold of.

True, which could theoretically be reflected with limited store availability.

True, but a majority of poisons that powerful aren't easy to get a hold of.

Ah! That's a good point there, nice. I dropped the hit that low so it wouldn't be ultimately broken... so if I boost the hit by about 15-20% but give it a small amount of uses (like 10?) and maybe make a Stun-immune skill for bosses that will increase its useability a bit but not make it overpowered and easy to spam?

Well, Skl/2 as a proc is already fairly unreliable, so I think a fairly normal hit rate probably wouldn't make it particularly broken. As for the low uses, that and a high cost should keep it from being spammable (barring high Luck Armsthrift, I guess, but that's using up a skill slot). As Eliesen mentioned, Dragonskin bosses should probably be immune to the Stun effect, but I'd say any other should be fair game, since all the other proc skills work on them.