Da Bear Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Should FE10 Edward be top of top tier for saving 50 turns or so from Chapter 1-P? That's one of the reasons I said RD needed a system like that, because you don't have your entire team at all times. On the other hand in this game all ranking will do is hurt the leads availability gives certain characters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 It's possible to play the game in a swastika formation, but why should we play like that? Only contexts which are commonly used by others should be considered. If you can find examples of drafts wherein the Avatar isn't used, then I will grant your argument. If you don't want to consider the possibility of Avatar not being used (and I'm sure there probably is a draft somewhere where Avatar is banned), then you still need to consider the possibility of other rules being placed on Avatar's use, such as banning reclassing Avatar out of Tactician or Grandmaster, or forcing removal of Avatar's Veteran skill, both of which you can see in drafts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted May 15, 2013 Author Share Posted May 15, 2013 (edited) If it applies to one Fire Emblem game, then it applies to every single Fire Emblem game. All Fire Emblem games have the same idea, and I don't see why they're so different that they're two completely different game series. Both FE10 and FE13 have interesting and uninteresting chapters. FE13 has Prologue--why is that as interesting as Chapter 16? Basically, if it applies to one FE game, it applies to this FE game, and it applies to this tier list as a result. If you don't want to consider the possibility of Avatar not being used (and I'm sure there probably is a draft somewhere where Avatar is banned), then you still need to consider the possibility of other rules being placed on Avatar's use, such as banning reclassing Avatar out of Tactician or Grandmaster, or forcing removal of Avatar's Veteran skill, both of which you can see in drafts. Okay, I can see that the Avatar is not getting a Second Seal in every context. Then Panne and Lon'qu can be higher: but where? Edited May 15, 2013 by Olwen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 If it applies to one Fire Emblem game, then it applies to every single Fire Emblem game. All Fire Emblem games have the same idea, and I don't see why they're so different that they're two completely different game series. Both FE10 and FE13 have interesting and uninteresting chapters. FE13 has Prologue--why is that as interesting as Chapter 16? Basically, if it applies to one FE game, it applies to this FE game, and it applies to this tier list as a result. Okay, I can see that the Avatar is not getting a Second Seal in every context. Then Panne and Lon'qu can be higher: but where? Well, first we need to make a separate entry for Avatar (Avatar denied Seal) and Avatar (Avatar permitted Seal). Then we need to make separate entries for Panne (Avatar permitted Seal) and Panne (Avatar denied Seal), Lon'qu (Avatar permitted Seal) and Lon'qu (Avatar denied Seal). The latter, in both cases, would go above Sumia (no Galeforce) and Cordelia (no Galeforce), but below Sully and Stahl, while the former, in both cases, would probably go below Nowi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted May 15, 2013 Author Share Posted May 15, 2013 (edited) I think it'd be better to debate and find the better Seal candidate between Lon'qu and Panne. This tier list assumes perfect play; the perfect tactician is going to give the Seal to one of them in every valid context. Edited May 15, 2013 by Olwen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da Bear Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 I think it'd be better to debate and find the better Seal candidate between Lon'qu and Panne. This tier list assumes perfect play; the perfect tactician is going to give the Seal to one of them in every valid context. Panne is much better imo. That said Lon'qu can dodge just about anything... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwall Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Panne's probably the better recipient, but there can exist contexts in which Panne has already been drafted by someone else, causing a player's optimal choice among the remaining characters to be Lon'qu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da Bear Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Panne's probably the better recipient, but there can exist contexts in which Panne has already been drafted by someone else, causing a player's optimal choice among the remaining characters to be Lon'qu. This is arguing for a draft. This is a LTC tier list that can be applied to drafts... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jediabiwan Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 If it such a big deal why not place Panne/Lon'qu (Second Seal) and Panne /Lon'qu(No Second Seal) in two different places like you do for units with/without rescue and galeforce? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted May 15, 2013 Author Share Posted May 15, 2013 I'd rather avoid it if possible because if we lighten up too much on separating contexts for units one could make the argument that there should be an infinite number of units on the tier list. But I think it's best to do it where significant. Who else should I make separations for based on Second Seals? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkhead Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 If The Avatar marries Panne, does Morgan become a Taguel in class? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da Bear Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 (edited) I'd rather avoid it if possible because if we lighten up too much on separating contexts for units one could make the argument that there should be an infinite number of units on the tier list.But I think it's best to do it where significant.Who else should I make separations for based on Second Seals? Not a good idea imo. Part of Tiering the characters is considering the cost of resources and if they deserve them, just separating them doesn't do a good job our weighing opportunity cost.And soul: I believe he does. Edited May 15, 2013 by bearclaw13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted May 15, 2013 Author Share Posted May 15, 2013 Not a good idea imo. Part of Tiering the characters is considering the cost of resources and if they deserve them, just separating them doesn't do a good job our weighing opportunity cost. And soul: I believe he does. Yeah, but the issue is that people who draft Panne or Lon'qu can't do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da Bear Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 (edited) Yeah, but the issue is that people who draft Panne or Lon'qu can't do that. I thought this tier list was for absolute LTC with drafters able to use it as a guideline... Edited May 15, 2013 by bearclaw13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkhead Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 And soul: I believe he does. No this Morgan is a girl. Yeah, but the issue is that people who draft Panne or Lon'qu can't do that. Um? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted May 15, 2013 Author Share Posted May 15, 2013 I thought this tier list was for absolute LTC with drafters able to use it as a guideline... We want this tier list to be as accurate a guideline for drafters as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da Bear Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 (edited) No this Morgan is a girl. Oh... I've always preferred Manakete or normal Morgan... what does this have to do with anything btw? We want this tier list to be as accurate a guideline for drafters as possible. Yes, I agree that it would be nice to do that but the main point of this tier list is LTC. Drafts are a side goal. Unless I'm missing something... Edited May 15, 2013 by bearclaw13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted May 15, 2013 Author Share Posted May 15, 2013 First post of the thread: This tier list is intended for efficiency playthroughs and drafts. I will be posting complexity ratings in an hour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkhead Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Oh... I've always preferred Manakete or normal Morgan... what does this have to do with anything btw? The Avatar has to be a male to marry Panne. If I recall, the male Avatar gets a female Morgan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da Bear Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 The Avatar has to be a male to marry Panne. If I recall, the male Avatar gets a female Morgan. Yeah, I was thinking Yarne... First post of the thread: This tier list is intended for efficiency playthroughs and drafts. I will be posting complexity ratings in an hour. Okay... Efficiency and LTC are considered different... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted May 15, 2013 Author Share Posted May 15, 2013 (edited) I'll redefine efficiency for this thread. Edited May 15, 2013 by Olwen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyron Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Why is Libra w/o rescue so much lower than libra with rescue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted May 15, 2013 Author Share Posted May 15, 2013 Rescue makes a big difference when you want to cut turns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da Bear Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 I'll redefine efficiency for this thread. I think that's best for clarity's sake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted May 15, 2013 Author Share Posted May 15, 2013 (edited) Key Terms G = Galeforce allowed; unlimited uses. WG = Galeforce not allowed at all. FR = Rescue allowed to be used an unlimited number of times. SS = If you are using this character in a draft (assuming the next best alternative is not available), and you cannot give your Avatar the Second Seal. Deity Tier Female Avatar G Turnshaver Tier Sumia G Cordelia G Male Avatar Female Avatar WG Olivia FR Frederick Anna FR Libra FR Top Tier Olivia Sully Panne SS Stahl Sumia Cordelia Lon'qu SS High Tier Miriel FR Ricken FR Lissa FR Maribelle FR Anna Chrom Nowi Mid Tier Lissa Maribelle Gaius Tiki Cherche Lon'qu Tharja Henry Low Tier Say'ri Libra Panne Vaike Miriel Gregor Ricken Kellam Bottom Tier Basilio Flavia Virion Donnel Edited May 15, 2013 by Olwen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.