Most hated character

[Momo]

Yeah, someone said before that Ike made mistakes, when did he? He's always been a bad character and FE10 treating him like a god is just a continuation from the last game where he was oh-so perfect.

[Rehab]

He made things that would have been mistakes, but he gets away with them because he was The Right Guy in The Right Place at The Right Time. That doesn't really mean the setting endorses his having made them, though.

Every other thing he says in the initial conversations with Sanaki is cringe-worthy and not really presented as anything other than being such, it's very heavily implied "we're letting you get away with acting like this because circumstances/you can be of use to us."

It's one thing that he doesn't face a whole lot of punishment for it, yeah, but when the leader of a nation has to tell their guards to not arrest him on the spot because what he said was that tactless, it seems kinda disingenuous to me to say something like "the setting is constantly treating him as Mr. Perfect."

They may not have called him out much for how he spoke in RD, but I seem to remember that at least in part he usually didn't give anybody a reason to- I don't think he ever flew off the handle in the same way he did in PoR, I just remember him going "here's what we have to do and here's how it's going to work."

More on that Right Guy Right Place thing: I seem to remember Begnion having a possible ulterior motive for subjugating Daein, or at least vague hintings at it inbetween chapters. Not to say Sanaki was particularly duplicitous about it, but it was very politically convenient for Begnion that Ike and Princess Elincia arrived when they did- Begnion has a reason to fund and supply the takedown of what's looking like a rogue state, and they get to put somebody with no prior connection to them at the head of it, possibly minimizing public political fallout.

Later, as Soren pointed out near the end of PoR, they might've been able to secure Crimea as a puppet state as well, if Ike hadn't told Zelgius to back off (and secure Daein). So there were actually some reasons for Begnion's political machine to be okay with putting Ike at the head of this army, that weren't solely "well he seems like an honest, upright chap, and he's fighting for such an honorable cause, you know! Why not give him an army or two, we have plenty to spare!" Namely, that they could've easily assumed (and, given his outbursts and manner of conduct, might've all but known) that he was a political lightweight, and would let them do pretty much as they wished after the war was over, possibly even net them control of both territories again. And if it weren't for Soren's advice, it might not be emphasized in-game very much, but that just might have actually happened.

#SorenistherealGaryStu

I'm assuming "fe10" doesn't include "people from Daein," because I don't actually remember many of them saying they supported what he did in effectively subjugating them and leaving them to Begnion, just that he could've been much more of an asshole about it and didn't seem like too bad a guy himself, which is basically true enough. It might not be a terribly realistic example of polarized opinion, but IIRC at least it was more "well to be fair there's not much else the guy could've done" than "oh we're so grateful to have been defeated by the marvelous lord Aiku~"

Edited May 20, 2013 by Rehab

[Momo]

My problem with that scene with Sanaki is that it's really the only one you might be able to argue Ike did the "wrong" thing. One single scene does not make me think Ike is a flawed individual, it just makes me think the writers had no idea what they were doing.

As for FE10, yeah, I did mean people that weren't from Daein, but I don't think they wrote those guys particularly well either, when it came to Ike. That's more a problem with that game's writing in geneal though and not specifically because of Ike.

[The Fush]

My problem with that scene with Sanaki is that it's really the only one you might be able to argue Ike did the "wrong" thing. One single scene does not make me think Ike is a flawed individual, it just makes me think the writers had no idea what they were doing.

As for FE10, yeah, I did mean people that weren't from Daein, but I don't think they wrote those guys particularly well either, when it came to Ike. That's more a problem with that game's writing in geneal though and not specifically because of Ike.

The thing about Radiant Dawn is that because it completely disregarded support conversations in an era where Fire Emblem ushered in support conversations, it's not so much the actual writing that's the problem as is the AMOUNT of writing

The whole reason why we can learn to like certain individual, even minor, characters in the first place is because those conversations show what sort of person they are, their ideals, etc.

But no instead IS decided to not bother and just turned everyone into either Mary Sues or Lyres

[Missile]

I'm surprised, nobody mentioned Roy.

It was my main in Melee, I liked his B-move which looks badass and really powerful.

And then, I played FE6.

...

wat teh fck :

1) He's empty, even Kellam looks more charismatic and has much more presence than him. His background is random, we can easily replaced him by Ike, Marth, Pikachu or Obama.

He's a 14 years old ginger boy (who looks ugly in the box).

He commands an army because everyone is dead / sick / evil.

He kills the final boss with a badass sword.

The end.

2) He can marry 6 wives ? What ? He's so bland, him but not Ike. Even Marth looks awesome when you see Roy.

3) WORST LORD EVER. Bad stats, bad growths and he promotes on chapter 21. The half of the game is simply escort this brat on the throne because every long-range weapon will attack him.

Not funny, not interesting, not powerful. He destroys his own game.

[Momo]

The thing about Radiant Dawn is that because it completely disregarded support conversations in an era where Fire Emblem ushered in support conversations, it's not so much the actual writing that's the problem as is the AMOUNT of writing

The whole reason why we can learn to like certain individual, even minor, characters in the first place is because those conversations show what sort of person they are, their ideals, etc.

But no instead IS decided to not bother and just turned everyone into either Mary Sues or Lyres

That's an issue, but I don't think it's the main one. I had a bigger problem with groups just plain not talking to each other. There's never a time in part 4 where everyone goes "Hold on a second, so why did you declare war on us?" and it just feels like Micaiah's group got away with a lot of stuff they shouldn't have.

[NinjaMonkey]

Lena...

I never thought that I'd hate anyone more than Micaiah, but it happened.

Edited May 20, 2013 by NinjaMonkey

[shroudening]

I really didn't like Heath. His character was okay, but the green/white hair did not work out for me at all. And in comparison to Cormag, Glen, Miredy and Gale, he didn't leave much of an impression on me. I could say the same for Vaida.

[Loki Laufeyson]

I get what you mean, I was just being silly. xP

If FE10 Ike existed alone in a vacuum then I'd be more inclined to slam his character, but then I remember all that he went through in FE9. I see where you're going with this though; it's not a valid excuse for him being so dull because not everyone who has played FE10 played FE9 before it. I feel a lot of the characters that existed in FE9 got a raw deal in FE10. The lack of support conversations dug all of their personalities (or lack thereof in manysome cases) a deeper grave.

Mhmmm. But its not just FE9 guys. The new characters introduced in FE10 got the short end of the stick. The Dawn Brigade is badly done and act as satellites in Micaiah's orbit.

I actually don't think FE9 matters at all. It doesn't change the fact that the way he is in FE10 is a perfect Greek God.

Ummm...Two parts of one story, mate. It matters. Its why a lot of people forgive the bad writing in Ike's direction in RD.

The problem with RD is that its terribly written. Ass Pulls and no real character development is everywhere. Elincia is the only one who makes good on the deal. (Part 2, while seeming like a big ass big lipped alligator moment, actually acted as nice character development for Elincia.)

Vaike is one of the few characters I can't even warm up to after reading supports and the DLC convos, and I've changed my opinions about several characters this way. I wouldn't say I hate him because he hasn't really done anything that's completely against my principles, but he's the kind of person I would never be able to get along with irl.

Im very ambivalent to Vaike. He reminds me of Reyn from Xenoblade but far less likable and much more bland. He very very rarely ever gets paired up.

[Fala]

The Scrappy Lords: Chrom, Micaiah and Roy.

Chrom: He maybe a good unit with access with Aether but he's bland as fuck. I seriously don't get what you girls see in him. If anything Owain deserves your time with how passionate and loving he can be.

Micaiah: She's a Mary Sue and a shite unit while a lord character. No fucking excuse.

Roy: It's like Chrom and Micaiah's irrideemable traits had a illegitemate offspring and up to fucking eleven.

Everyone else:

Est: I hate her so damn much. Thanks to her sister Catria outclassing her in SD I killed her off in every playthrough. Man that will never get old.

Kellam: His character is annoying. Seriously, I never use him ever.

[mai]

That's an issue, but I don't think it's the main one. I had a bigger problem with groups just plain not talking to each other. There's never a time in part 4 where everyone goes "Hold on a second, so why did you declare war on us?" and it just feels like Micaiah's group got away with a lot of stuff they shouldn't have.

I agree, Part 4 is the biggest Deus ex Machina ever. The writers were going somewhere interesting with Part 3, but then it seems they wrote themselves into a corner and decided screw it, let's have the big bad goddess wake up so everyone *has* to forgive each other and cooperate.

Anyway, on topic, I remembered I really hated Pahn and Lifis when I played FE5. Lifis because he treats Saphy like she's an object, and Pahn because he's just a jerk. Also, "Lifis gang"? Seriously? "Dandelion gang" isn't much better, either.

[Murdok Dracul]

When it comes to playable characters, there's always at least one redeeming feature to everyone's personality (if they have a personality), and I really don't like hating people. Sure, Makalov's a complete dick, but Astrid sees some good in him, and their supports inform us that he does have a bit of a conscience. Tharja seems like an evil bitch at first, but if you let that put you off and proceed to ignore her, then you won't get to see that she's actually a pretty sweet and loving character. I find that people who 100% hate her are drastically overplaying her bad qualities and completely ignoring her good ones. Micaiah, Sothe, Ike...really, I just don't get it. Do people hate them just because they think it's cool to hate main characters? Because that's all I'm getting.

I don't even hate the bad guys. Maybe I think of things differently to everyone else, but when I think of villains, and how much I like or dislike them, it works opposite to the heroes. If a character is meant to be a horrible, psychopathic arsehole (Valter), then I will like that character for being such a strong villain. I guess maybe it helps that these characters die as part of the story.

[Baldrick]

If Ike made a mistake, he wasn't punished for it and nothing bad actually came of it. In fact, Elincia and Sanaki both praised him for it. And Sanaki liked him enough to permit him to become the commander of the Crimean Army.

Elincia and Sanaki praise his conviction, rather than the act itself. While Ike is ranting, Elincia all but tells him to shut up, and Sanaki lets him know the act itself was a very stupid idea. The senators call for his head, and Titania, Nasir and Soren hammer the point home. Rehab's post is recommended reading as well.

The problem is, there's no real negative consequences to Ike's "blunders". If I remember correctly, Sanaki herself even praises him for his outspokenness. Sure, Ike does a couple stupid things, but everything always turns fine for him and most of the time he even gets praised for them (and this is only in FE9; in FE10 he's always 100% perfect and in the right and everyone loves him, while pretty much every character who isn't part of the Dawn Brigade thinks poorly of Micaiah and her choices), so can you really call those flaws?

The point is, there could have been consequences. Extremely likely, given Sanaki's twisted idea of fun. Ike cannot see the future and did not know what she knew, so he could not have known Sanaki was actually a reasonable person and that his presence was convenient for her. You may be confusing flaws with tragic flaws, the latter requires there to be consequences. The former does not.

[mai]

The point is, there could have been consequences. Extremely likely, given Sanaki's twisted idea of fun. Ike cannot see the future and did not know what she knew, so he could not have known Sanaki was actually a reasonable person and that his presence was convenient for her. You may be confusing flaws with tragic flaws, the latter requires there to be consequences. The former does not.

Eeh, I guess you have a point, but still, I think it's kind of cheap for a character to have a "flaw" that has absolutely no consequences for them. Kind of a "show, don't tell" thing (but not exactly)? But that might just be me, I guess I'm kind of picky!

[-Cynthia-]

Eeh, I guess you have a point, but still, I think it's kind of cheap for a character to have a "flaw" that has absolutely no consequences for them. Kind of a "show, don't tell" thing (but not exactly)? But that might just be me, I guess I'm kind of picky!

"Sometimes I'm too outspoken when defending my friends" really seems more like an 'interview flaw' than a real one.

Edited May 21, 2013 by -Cynthia-

[Anouleth]

Elincia and Sanaki praise his conviction, rather than the act itself. While Ike is ranting, Elincia all but tells him to shut up, and Sanaki lets him know the act itself was a very stupid idea. The senators call for his head, and Titania, Nasir and Soren hammer the point home. Rehab's post is recommended reading as well.

Oh no! some people said some mean things about him! and something bad could have happened (although actually nothing bad at all happened)!

I mean, Sanaki didn't have to let it go. She could have thrown them out of court. Chapter 14 and 15 can be them taking mercenary jobs. And then they decide to investigate Tanas on their own. In Chapter 17, Ike/Elincia see Sanaki apologising to the herons and realise she's not so stuck up after all, and Sanaki sees Ike rescue Leanne and realises that he can be trusted to do the right thing, and that Elincia would make a good queen. Or something.

The point is, there could have been consequences. Extremely likely, given Sanaki's twisted idea of fun. Ike cannot see the future and did not know what she knew, so he could not have known Sanaki was actually a reasonable person and that his presence was convenient for her. You may be confusing flaws with tragic flaws, the latter requires there to be consequences. The former does not.

When Bella is absurdly clumsy in Twilight, that's supposedly a flaw. Because everyone says it is. Even though actually, nothing ever comes of it. In other words, you could have the same character, with no flaw, and the entire story would be the same. Isn't that bad writing? Isn't it monumentally shitty that the character's own flaws don't turn out to be an obstacle, or a hindrance, or in fact, relevant to literally anything ever, and only there to have something to fill in in the "flaws" section of the character sheet?

In the same way, Ike's "flaw" doesn't actually affect anything. It's as relevant to the plot of the game as the colour of his hair. Isn't that shitty writing? Aren't the flaws and nuances of the main character's personality supposed to be, I don't know, relevant? At all? Isn't that supposed to be the whole point of "character-driven" stories? Ike got chewed out for his rudeness, I guess. That's more than what happens in some stories. But it's not enough for me to be seriously convinced.

It doesn't help my attitude that this "flaw" is clearly meant to make Ike look good. And mentioned on the Mary Sue Litmus Test:

"If your character is openly defiant or disrespectful toward authority figures, is your character always justified and in the right?"

"Sometimes I'm too outspoken when defending my friends" really seems more like an 'interview flaw' than a real one.

Sometimes, I'm just a little bit too brave when standing up to corrupt, detached authority figures! Edited May 21, 2013 by Anouleth

[Baldrick]

"Sometimes I'm too outspoken when defending my friends" really seems more like an 'interview flaw' than a real one.

The Greil Mercenaries are a business, and Sanaki is essentially a rich client. Mouthing off to her is poor business sense, and if Ike didn't understand that even after being in charge for a decent amount of time, he's not just ignorant, he's completely unfit to lead the Greil Mercenaries.

Oh no! some people said some mean things about him! and something bad could have happened (although actually nothing bad at all happened)!

I mean, Sanaki didn't have to let it go. She could have thrown them out of court. Chapter 14 and 15 can be them taking mercenary jobs. And then they decide to investigate Tanas on their own. In Chapter 17, Ike/Elincia see Sanaki apologising to the herons and realise she's not so stuck up after all, and Sanaki sees Ike rescue Leanne and realises that he can be trusted to do the right thing, and that Elincia would make a good queen. Or something.

Bolded sections:

1. How does that come about? A lucky coincidence like that completely shatters my WSoD.

2. How does Sanaki get that far? She can't use her own vassals because it risks the scandal becoming public, and she just sent away a third-party that's ideal for the job.

3. How does Ike get that far? They only uncover Reyson because they can name-drop Sanaki.

And the ironic part is, for all your complaining about lack of consequences, this really isn't any better. It's just a slap on the wrist. Ike doesn't have to deal with the consequences of his actions because Begnion ends up helping them anyway.

When Bella is absurdly clumsy in Twilight, that's supposedly a flaw. Because everyone says it is. Even though actually, nothing ever comes of it. In other words, you could have the same character, with no flaw, and the entire story would be the same. Isn't that bad writing? Isn't it monumentally shitty that the character's own flaws don't turn out to be an obstacle, or a hindrance, or in fact, relevant to literally anything ever, and only there to have something to fill in in the "flaws" section of the character sheet?

In the same way, Ike's "flaw" doesn't actually affect anything. It's as relevant to the plot of the game as the colour of his hair. Isn't that shitty writing? Aren't the flaws and nuances of the main character's personality supposed to be, I don't know, relevant? At all? Isn't that supposed to be the whole point of "character-driven" stories? Ike got chewed out for his rudeness, I guess. That's more than what happens in some stories. But it's not enough for me to be seriously convinced.

A lack of tact in itself is not a genuine flaw, but in Ike's job as a business owner/PR representative for Crimea, it is. (Imagine if Bella was a surgeon.) No arguments from me that Ike is a flawed character badly written.

[Anouleth]

The Greil Mercenaries are a business, and Sanaki is essentially a rich client. Mouthing off to her is poor business sense, and if Ike didn't understand that even after being in charge for a decent amount of time, he's not just ignorant, he's completely unfit to lead the Greil Mercenaries.

Yeah, it's such an insanely disastrous decision that Elincia is immediately dismissed from the court, Titania abandons the Greil Mercenaries, Rolf becomes a heroin addict and Ike's cock turns black and falls off. Except wait, nothing happens, Ike gets a disapproving glare from Sanaki, but she can't stay mad at him because he's such a qt3.14.

Bolded sections:

1. How does that come about? A lucky coincidence like that completely shatters my WSoD.

And the other insane lucky coincidences in FE9 don't? So you're not troubled, that of all the random women in the world that Lillia could have passed on Lehran's Medallion to, she happened to be cared for by Elena, who as far as we know was the only person in the world at the time who could have carried it safely and just happened to be married to the greatest swordsman in the world, Gawain. And then, after they went on the run to Gallia, they just happened to take the heir to the Daein throne under their wing. And then, in Crimea, they just happened to bump into Elincia in the middle of nowhere. What a striking coincidence, that Elincia ended up in the company of the bearer of Lehran's Medallion, because if literally anyone else in the entire world had been the first to find her, all the events of FE9 and FE10 would have been completely impossible.

Seriously, how hard is it to make the leap from "fighting laguz slavers" and then "meeting the laguz emancipation army" to investigating the biggest laguz slaveholder in the country?

2. How does Sanaki get that far? She can't use her own vassals because it risks the scandal becoming public, and she just sent away a third-party that's ideal for the job.

That crap about "needing a third party because she can't trust her own vassals" was just a bullshit excuse for using Ike in the first place. It can be dispensed with entirely.

3. How does Ike get that far? They only uncover Reyson because they can name-drop Sanaki.

I don't see why Ike wouldn't just barge in like he does everywhere else. Maybe Tormod can have some line like "We've been planning to sneak into his mansion and bust out all his slaves for ages... but now we actually have some beorc with us, the plan can work!" They can pose as people buying slaves, hell, it worked on Leonardo DiCaprio, it should work on Oliver.

Or, y'know, something. The bit where they're "investigating" the mansion is totally pointless and lame anyway.

And the ironic part is, for all your complaining about lack of consequences, this really isn't any better. It's just a slap on the wrist. Ike doesn't have to deal with the consequences of his actions because Begnion ends up helping them anyway.

Except that in my version Sanaki doesn't just tut disapprovingly at Ike, and then trust Ike with all of her plans anyway. Ike has to actually earn her trust. Being thrown out of the Begnion court is a serious setback. Being chided is not. It's the difference between Ike's flaw actually having consequences and not having consequences.

A lack of tact in itself is not a genuine flaw, but in Ike's job as a business owner/PR representative for Crimea, it is. (Imagine if Bella was a surgeon.) No arguments from me that Ike is a flawed character badly written.

Yeah, which is why Ike is immediately promoted to being commander of the Crimean Army, with no experience! OH WAIT

[Baldrick]

Yeah, it's such an insanely disastrous decision that Elincia is immediately dismissed from the court, Titania abandons the Greil Mercenaries, Rolf becomes a heroin addict and Ike's cock turns black and falls off. Except wait, nothing happens, Ike gets a disapproving glare from Sanaki, but she can't stay mad at him because he's such a qt3.14.

You still don't get it? You must be being deliberately obtuse. Read this post carefully

And the other insane lucky coincidences in FE9 don't? So you're not troubled, that of all the random women in the world that Lillia could have passed on Lehran's Medallion to, she happened to be cared for by Elena, who as far as we know was the only person in the world at the time who could have carried it safely and just happened to be married to the greatest swordsman in the world, Gawain. And then, after they went on the run to Gallia, they just happened to take the heir to the Daein throne under their wing. And then, in Crimea, they just happened to bump into Elincia in the middle of nowhere. What a striking coincidence, that Elincia ended up in the company of the bearer of Lehran's Medallion, because if literally anyone else in the entire world had been the first to find her, all the events of FE9 and FE10 would have been completely impossible.

1. Possibly Yune was manipulating them like she did Micaiah and Mist.

2. They were the only people in Gallia who wouldn't shun Soren. We don't know how much ground Soren covered.

3. They were heading towards Melior, Elincia was fleeing from Melior. They met along the way.

Overall, less farfetched than Ike being kicked out by Sanaki, and randomly investigating the exact same person Sanaki was investigating. I guess my beef with that particular arc is that the events of the games are still possible even if it doesn't happen.

Seriously, how hard is it to make the leap from "fighting laguz slavers" and then "meeting the laguz emancipation army" to investigating the biggest laguz slaveholder in the country?

The first two only happened due to Sanaki's orders. And isn't the senator's involvement in laguz slavery explicitly not known? Even Sanaki has only unconfirmed reports.

That crap about "needing a third party because she can't trust her own vassals" was just a bullshit excuse for using Ike in the first place. It can be dispensed with entirely.

Makes sense to me. Keep the investigation unofficial, less shit hitting fan if it became public (especially considering what happens to Begnion when the senators and Sanaki are antagonists late in Part 3 FE10)

Except that in my version Sanaki doesn't just tut disapprovingly at Ike, and then trust Ike with all of her plans anyway. Ike has to actually earn her trust. Being thrown out of the Begnion court is a serious setback. Being chided is not. It's the difference between Ike's flaw actually having consequences and not having consequences.

My interpretation was that if they had failed, she would have disavowed them. The word of an empress against some no-name mercenary wouldn't even be a contest. So it wasn't so much she trusted him, just that he was an easily sacrificable pawn that was capable of doing something for her and needed something from her. Your version still bends over backwards to make sure Ike doesn't have to deal with the consequences of his actions, and besides:

For his abuse of the apostle, the penalty can be only death!

Who says they'd merely kick Ike out?

Yeah, which is why Ike is immediately promoted to being commander of the Crimean Army, with no experience! OH WAIT

Apart from all those chapters you were fighting Daein. He's no slouch as a battle commander, but apart from being charismatic and transparent, he's got little skill in being a leader in non-combat situations.

[-Cynthia-]

The Greil Mercenaries are a business, and Sanaki is essentially a rich client. Mouthing off to her is poor business sense, and if Ike didn't understand that even after being in charge for a decent amount of time, he's not just ignorant, he's completely unfit to lead the Greil Mercenaries.

I don't disagree that it's a potential flaw, but a flaw that carries no real consequences might as well not be there. Elincia praises his outspokeness, Sanaki trusts him with all her plans and makes him a General etc. It may have impacted his relationship with the senators, but they're portrayed as both unimportant and thoroughly unlikable.

[Anouleth]

You still don't get it? You must be being deliberately obtuse. Read this post carefully

"It's one thing that he doesn't face a whole lot of punishment for it, yeah, but when the leader of a nation has to tell their guards to not arrest him on the spot because what he said was that tactless, it seems kinda disingenuous to me to say something like "the setting is constantly treating him as Mr. Perfect.""

No, it's cliched gary stu bullshit. The calling out that Ike gives is 100% justified and absolutely no punishment is given. In fact, his stock actually rises in the opinion of the only person who actually matters (Sanaki).

1. Possibly Yune was manipulating them like she did Micaiah and Mist.

It was a miracle of God! PRAISE JESUS!

Um, no.

2. They were the only people in Gallia who wouldn't shun Soren. We don't know how much ground Soren covered.

Well it's a lucky thing that of all the people in Gallia Soren bumped into, he happened to bump into literally the only people in the entire country who would have helped him. Extremely lucky.

Overall, less farfetched than Ike being kicked out by Sanaki, and randomly investigating the exact same person Sanaki was investigating.

Except that Sanaki wasn't investigating Oliver anyway, because apparently she couldn't trust literally anyone in the entirety of Begnion with her suspicions, and it doesn't need to be random if Ike is in contact with laguz slavers and the laguz emancipation army. If Sanaki is investigating Oliver before Ike shows up, what does she need him for anyway?

The first two only happened due to Sanaki's orders. And isn't the senator's involvement in laguz slavery explicitly not known? Even Sanaki has only unconfirmed reports.

Maybe you forgot this, because lots of people do, and in fairness, it's hard to tell because Ike and co. are more like vigilantes than real mercenaries, but Ike and company are supposed to be mercenaries. Like, there are plenty of reasons why they might be hired to deal with bandits or slavers. It's not like if Sanaki didn't specifically order Ike to go kill Gashilama, he'd have sat in his room cleaning his nails instead.

My interpretation was that if they had failed, she would have disavowed them. The word of an empress against some no-name mercenary wouldn't even be a contest. So it wasn't so much she trusted him, just that he was an easily sacrificable pawn that was capable of doing something for her and needed something from her. Your version still bends over backwards to make sure Ike doesn't have to deal with the consequences of his actions, and besides:

Well, Elincia still needs the backing of Begnion. I'm not suggesting that the plot of FE9 should be changed entirely so that Ike and Elincia die in poverty because of his mistake, rather, that Ike's rudeness and lack of respect should cause at least one problem or obstacle and be in some way plot-relevant. Maybe it's completely crazy of me to suggest that the flaws of characters should have an impact on the story.

Who says they'd merely kick Ike out?

Uh, do you not see the difference between being somewhat lenient and merely kicking out Ike, and basically letting it pass completely with no punishment at all? Are you saying that the only two possible outcomes are Ike being instantly executed, and Sanaki doing nothing?

Apart from all those chapters you were fighting Daein.

Yeah, all, er, four of them, because Ike only becomes commander in chapter 8.

[Baldrick]

The calling out that Ike gives is 100% justified

Still tactless and unwise

and absolutely no punishment is given. In fact, his stock actually rises in the opinion of the only person who actually matters (Sanaki).

But, she considers him far from "Mr. Perfect".

It was a miracle of God! PRAISE JESUS!

I accept your concession of that point.

Well it's a lucky thing that of all the people in Gallia Soren bumped into, he happened to bump into literally the only people in the entire country who would have helped him. Extremely lucky.

Does the game ever state how long Soren was wandering around Gallia?

Except that Sanaki wasn't investigating Oliver anyway, because apparently she couldn't trust literally anyone in the entirety of Begnion with her suspicions, and it doesn't need to be random if Ike is in contact with laguz slavers and the laguz emancipation army. If Sanaki is investigating Oliver before Ike shows up, what does she need him for anyway?

The man Sanaki wants to investigate. Whatever. And Ike is not in contact with the LEA because Sanaki wasn't manipulating him.

Maybe you forgot this, because lots of people do, and in fairness, it's hard to tell because Ike and co. are more like vigilantes than real mercenaries, but Ike and company are supposed to be mercenaries. Like, there are plenty of reasons why they might be hired to deal with bandits or slavers. It's not like if Sanaki didn't specifically order Ike to go kill Gashilama, he'd have sat in his room cleaning his nails instead.

At that time, they were employed by Elincia. Would they have taken on a random job in the middle of that?

Well, Elincia still needs the backing of Begnion. I'm not suggesting that the plot of FE9 should be changed entirely so that Ike and Elincia die in poverty because of his mistake,

Why not? That'd be an appropriate punishment for the magnitude of the mistake he made.

rather, that Ike's rudeness and lack of respect should cause at least one problem or obstacle and be in some way plot-relevant. Maybe it's completely crazy of me to suggest that the flaws of characters should have an impact on the story.

I consider a flaw that receives no consequences only because the Greil Mercenaries are in a politically convenient position more legitimate than a flaw that receives a token punishment, and is instantly revoked by a series of unlikely events, leading to no real punishment.

Uh, do you not see the difference between being somewhat lenient and merely kicking out Ike, and basically letting it pass completely with no punishment at all? Are you saying that the only two possible outcomes are Ike being instantly executed, and Sanaki doing nothing?

If I was, I wouldn't bother analysing the situation where he gets kicked out. It's a possibility, and the most appropriate consequence for his actions, if the senators and Nasir are to be believed. "The fact that [ike is] still breathing is a miracle."

Yeah, all, er, four of them, because Ike only becomes commander in chapter 8.

Thank you for quantifying it. His competency as a battle commander is never in doubt, though.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Baldrick

[Anouleth]

Still tactless and unwise

Still a flaw with no consequences or impact on the story. You might as well say that Ike having mediocre base stats is a flaw in his personality.

But, she considers him far from "Mr. Perfect".

Yeah, that takes her a whole four chapters.

I accept your concession of that point.

I didn't concede anything: I just think that "Yune did it" is a remarkably bad reason for why Lillia would come into contact with specifically Elena.

Does the game ever state how long Soren was wandering around Gallia?

It doesn't state, but it doesn't matter. You could wander around America for ten years, doesn't mean you're likely to bump into any given person.

The man Sanaki wants to investigate. Whatever. And Ike is not in contact with the LEA because Sanaki wasn't manipulating him.

Right, because there is literally no other reason Ike would ever come into contact with a group of bandits.

At that time, they were employed by Elincia. Would they have taken on a random job in the middle of that?

After being thrown out of court, Elincia and Ike have basically no resources to fall back on. They decide to raise money by taking on mercenary jobs while Elincia tries to get them back into court. Easy.

Why not? That'd be an appropriate punishment for the magnitude of the mistake he made.

Well, I'm glad you agree that Ike is a flaming Gary Stu who is punished far more leniently than anyone else, and if it weren't for the rules of the universe being blatantly rewritten to accomodate him he would be a miserable failure.

I consider a flaw that receives no consequences only because the Greil Mercenaries are in a politically convenient position more legitimate than a flaw that receives a token punishment, and is instantly revoked by a series of unlikely events, leading to no real punishment.

I consider a flaw that has literally no impact on the story aside from one or two completely extraneous scenes to be less legitimate than a flaw that actually has an impact on the story. In that sense, Ike's "flaw" is actually less legitimate than Bella from Twilight's "flaw".

If I was, I wouldn't bother analysing the situation where he gets kicked out. It's a possibility, and the most appropriate consequence for his actions, if the senators and Nasir are to be believed. "The fact that [ike is] still breathing is a miracle."

Right, but it should be plainly evident that the game cannot just execute the main character halfway through for something he said. Ike is still the main character and should be able to expect a certain level of immunity from arbitrary death, but he can still suffer a setback in some other way.

[Samias]

Ike in FE9 is fine to me.

First of all, we're focusing hard on Sanaki, but at the beginning of the game Ike rushes off from the camp to confront bandits, WITHOUT TITANIA, to save Mist and Rolf. And thinking from a gameplay perspective, there is always the possibility that Ike gets Oscar, Boyd, or Rhys killed. In fact, the hostages are saved not because Ike charged in and saved them, but because Greil brought along Shinon and Gatrie to finish off the rout. Before Shinon snipes off the rest of the bandits, Ike, Titania, and everyone else is forced to drop their weapons, and only Titania knows reinforcements are coming. Basically, this is a chapter where Ike severely blunders. Of course, though Greil means to punish him, he never does because there's "too much work", but soon we find out Crimea has been decimated by Deian.

And in regards to Sanaki's bandit jobs, no one else would have hired Ike to go after the slave traders. All of Ike's previous mercenary jobs had been to tackle bandits who were threatening towns, but who would call mercenaries to save a bunch of laguz in Begnion? From Ike's perspective, Sanaki is sending him on some weird jobs that he thinks is punishment for running his mouth off. Sanaki knows everyone in Begnion tolerates the slave trade despite it being official banned, so she gets an unknowing 3rd party from a laguz-sympathizing country to uncover the truth so she can take the next step and flush out the senators who are keeping slaves. The senators probably keep tabs on Sanaki's royal guard, which prevents Sanaki from simply sending Sigrun and Tanith. But from the first moment that Ike gets sent out to tackle some bandits in the middle of nowhere, he just thinks Sanaki is messing with him.

And also, again from a gameplay perspective, there are a number of times when the Black Knight just shows up. Most players know to stay away, but there's a very real possibility that someone just sends Ike off to his death, and bam, game over. It's a little bit meta, but the game does allow you to make a very foolish decision.

[Anouleth]

Ike in FE9 is fine to me.

First of all, we're focusing hard on Sanaki, but at the beginning of the game Ike rushes off from the camp to confront bandits, WITHOUT TITANIA, to save Mist and Rolf. And thinking from a gameplay perspective, there is always the possibility that Ike gets Oscar, Boyd, or Rhys killed. In fact, the hostages are saved not because Ike charged in and saved them, but because Greil brought along Shinon and Gatrie to finish off the rout. Before Shinon snipes off the rest of the bandits, Ike, Titania, and everyone else is forced to drop their weapons, and only Titania knows reinforcements are coming. Basically, this is a chapter where Ike severely blunders. Of course, though Greil means to punish him, he never does because there's "too much work", but soon we find out Crimea has been decimated by Deian.

So Ike makes a mistake and there are no ACTUAL consequences, and nothing actually happens to him aside from, er, getting told off?

And if you're looking for another "mistake" that Ike makes, he flagrantly trespasses in Goldoa in Chapter 12. Is he punished? No. Is he let off with a warning and told to leave before he gets into worse trouble? Goldoa is not so strict as Begnion or Crimea, it seems, since Ike is actually rewarded for not doing what he's told, since he's So Goshdarned Charismatic that Kurth is immediately taken with him.

And in regards to Sanaki's bandit jobs, no one else would have hired Ike to go after the slave traders. All of Ike's previous mercenary jobs had been to tackle bandits who were threatening towns, but who would call mercenaries to save a bunch of laguz in Begnion? From Ike's perspective, Sanaki is sending him on some weird jobs that he thinks is punishment for running his mouth off. Sanaki knows everyone in Begnion tolerates the slave trade despite it being official banned, so she gets an unknowing 3rd party from a laguz-sympathizing country to uncover the truth so she can take the next step and flush out the senators who are keeping slaves. The senators probably keep tabs on Sanaki's royal guard, which prevents Sanaki from simply sending Sigrun and Tanith. But from the first moment that Ike gets sent out to tackle some bandits in the middle of nowhere, he just thinks Sanaki is messing with him.

Governments frequently set bounties on the heads of outlaws. It wouldn't be unusual at all for Ike to go after a group of slavers after hearing they have a high bounty attached to them.

In addition, Ike has a history of taking noble jobs for little or no pay. It would be entirely in his character to forgo the pay if it meant doing the right thing and saving some kidnapped laguz. No doubt, the bandits themselves have gold with them that would make for adequate compensation.

And also, again from a gameplay perspective, there are a number of times when the Black Knight just shows up. Most players know to stay away, but there's a very real possibility that someone just sends Ike off to his death, and bam, game over. It's a little bit meta, but the game does allow you to make a very foolish decision.

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. Ike is no more or less likely to do that than anyone else in his army. If it's a flaw, that he can recklessly attempt to seek vengeance against the black knight and die, then it's a flaw that all of the GMs share... which is hardly a flaw at all.