The Veteran and Aptitude Thread

[Constable Reggie]

You know it's pretty ironic that the skill's called "veteran", since no (acknowledge worthy) veteran of Fire Emblem would ever consider using this skill on anyone besides Avatar, and that's only because he starts with it.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Constable Galeforce

[Interceptor]

Why does that make the game any easier or more efficient for us?

In what way does Veteran satisfy this condition that matters to you? That's a question you'll have to ask yourself.

Meanwhile, in the portion of reality that encompasses things beside the ones that you care about personally, Veteran is incredibly useful.

[Chiki]

In what way does Veteran satisfy this condition that matters to you? That's a question you'll have to ask yourself.

Meanwhile, in the portion of reality that encompasses things beside the ones that you care about personally, Veteran is incredibly useful.

Can you break something that's already broken? You can, but introducing something that's broken into something with other things that break the game is just about pointless. A broken ruler is a broken ruler regardless of breaking it again.

Now I agree with the Avatar. But bringing up Morgan and Lucina is pointless. It just proves my point that availability is what matters for Veteran.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Olwen

[Interceptor]

Can you break something that's already broken? You can, but introducing something that's broken into something with other things that break the game is just about pointless. A broken ruler is a broken ruler regardless of breaking it again.

This is the eternal curse of analogies and metaphors; people who extend them so far that they lose sight of where they came from in the first place.

The game is not "broken" like a toy that's smashed on the ground. Veteran as a skill makes Morgan/Lucina significantly more useful than they would otherwise be. One way of determining which skill is "better", would be in the context of comparing other skills relative to this one in this situation.

Veteran beats them all.

Now I agree with the Avatar. But bringing up Morgan and Lucina is pointless.

I don't like pomegranate Chobani.

My opinion there has about as much impact on the yogurt industry, as your standard for "pointless" does in the context of this thread. You are a thread, not the weaver.

[Chiki]

The game is not "broken" like a toy that's smashed on the ground. Veteran as a skill makes Morgan/Lucina significantly more useful than they would otherwise be. One way of determining which skill is "better", would be in the context of comparing other skills relative to this one in this situation.

That was not your original claim. No one is denying that they would be significantly more useful. Let us see what you were replying to:

I think Veteran is best with units who have a lot of availability.

That does nothing to counter my claim. Just because Morgan and Lucina make good use of Veteran doesn't mean it's best on them. Just because Veteran makes Donnel more useful doesn't mean it's best on him.

The reason it isn't good on Morgan and Lucina is because by the time they arrive the game has already been trivialized. You have been avoiding this argument for a while now. Care to give me a counterargument for my claim?

A game cannot be broken like a toy, but the analogy stands. A game that has been trivialized is still trivialized even if you add more trivializing factors, in the same way that a ruler is still broken even if you break it more than once. It's just more broken, in the same way that the game is more trivialized.

I don't like pomegranate Chobani.

My opinion there has about as much impact on the yogurt industry, as your standard for "pointless" does in the context of this thread. You are a thread, not the weaver.

That doesn't mean I can't state my opinion.

[Tables]

...The reason it isn't good on Morgan and Lucina is because by the time they arrive the game has already been trivialized. You have been avoiding this argument for a while now. Care to give me a counterargument for my claim?

...

Isn't that point about when you would start getting Galeforce? So... you only get Galeforce at the point where the game has been trivialised, and therefore it's contribution after doesn't really matter. How is Galeforce good again? I do agree that the later chapters are generally easy, at least, and early ones are the hardest and what really matters in terms of difficulty and comparison.

Also, you seem to be assuming LTC is what everyone is interested in. I think it's an extremely arrogant assumption and strange leap of logic to say that - nothing in the game itself pushes low turn counts in any way - heck, if anything, it pushes towards the opposite, taking your time, focusing on survival, pairing characters up etc. Ultimately, what matters most to me in comparing skills, characters and the like is which makes things easiest: Which character out of X and Y gives me the most berth to make mistakes? Which most reduces the chance of unlucky hits/crits? Which can take the most enemies out safely? Now, I know a reasonable number of people like to set the self-imposed challenge of low turn counts, and if you do, that's fine, but don't assume everyone else is playing the same way, and don't act surprised when people disagree because they're doing what the game intended and not what you want to do. Galeforce might well be the best skill in LTC, but that doesn't mean it is for most gamers.

[Interceptor]

That does nothing to counter my claim.

Your claim was that Veteran is best on units with a lot of availability, which might be the most banal observation I've seen all day. My response was, in not so many words, that your imaginary Veteran!Cherche might be better compared to Veteran!Lucina/Morgan, which have the advantage of actually existing in the game. They benefit significantly from the skill, and that matters when you're measuring how good that a skill actually is.

You have been avoiding this argument for a while now. Care to give me a counterargument for my claim?

It deserves no response; I don't need to lower myself to fighting for crumbs on the ground when there's a loaf of bread on the table.

That doesn't mean I can't state my opinion.

Who asked you to stop? It's not against the rules to be shortsighted and/or wrong about something.

[Chiki]

Also, you seem to be assuming LTC is what everyone is interested in

You clearly haven't been reading my posts, have you? I brought up Avatar soloing and Nosferatanking in addition to Galeforce earlier. Please abandon your ill-conceived notions prior to replying to me. I suggest reading my posts beforehand.

Isn't that point about when you would start getting Galeforce? So... you only get Galeforce at the point where the game has been trivialised, and therefore it's contribution after doesn't really matter. How is Galeforce good again? I do agree that the later chapters are generally easy, at least, and early ones are the hardest and what really matters in terms of difficulty and comparison.

You're right in the context I'm discussing, which isn't LTC. It is about the game being broken.

They benefit significantly from the skill, and that matters when you're measuring how good that a skill actually is.

That's the point: it doesn't. What matters is how well the skill allows your units to affect your overall performance, which is why availability is most important.

Let's say Veteran can make Donnel broken. He probably needs the skill the most, after all. But why does that make the skill any better? Even if it makes Donnel better, it's pointless if it has no change on your overall performance.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Olwen

[Constable Reggie]

Also, you seem to be assuming LTC is what everyone is interested in.

Well, why should we factor any other style of play? LTC is the right way to play this game, so obviously we should be talking about aspects in context of ltc. Discussion in any other context is basically pointless.

Who asked you to stop? It's not against the rules to be shortsighted and/or wrong about something.

Woah man, Olwen has a phd in logic. If anyone is being shortisghted and/or wrong, it's you.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Constable Galeforce

[Chiki]

Lol reported.

[PK Gaming]

Never seen more truth compiled in a list in my life

By the way, anyone who argues that veteran is useful on anyone other than avatar is a scrub who doesn't play the game the right way (max ltc). If you did, you'd clearly see that galeforce >>> veteran

Don't you think you're taking this galeforce troll thing a little to far?

Also Interceptor, there's not much point presenting a reasoned counterargument to someone like Olwen who, who thinks his word is law. Just keep (metaphorically) walking. Obviously Galeforce is very powerful in the right hands, but to say its comparable to Veteran is laughable.

Edited May 23, 2013 by PK Gaming

[Constable Reggie]

Since when is having separate views trolling? I simply love galeforce since it helps so much in my ltc plays, don't know what's wrong with that.

Lol reported.

"Do not publicly tell people that you've reported someone or threaten to report someone. This too, will result in punishment."

"Do not make one-line posts, unless it adds something new or interesting to a discussion. In other words, do not spam."

Edited May 23, 2013 by Constable Galeforce

[Interceptor]

That's the point: it doesn't. What matters is how well the skill allows your units to affect your overall performance, which is why availability is most important.

That's your point. This is the view of the acolytes of your religion (you, yourself, and Olwen), but only a subset of Reality™, where Veteran on Lucina/Morgan (and a bunch of other characters, while we are in the neighborhood) actually does make a difference.

[Chiki]

Also Interceptor, there's not much point presenting a reasoned counterargument to someone like Olwen who, who thinks his word is law. Just keep (metaphorically) walking. Obviously Galeforce is very powerful in the right hands, but to say its comparable to Veteran is laughable.

Have you been reading my posts? I didn't even bring up Galeforce.

That's your point. This is the view of the acolytes of your religion (you, yourself, and Olwen), but only a subset of Reality™, where Veteran on Lucina/Morgan (and a bunch of other characters, while we are in the neighborhood) actually does make a difference.

Okay. Care to explain to me why Veteran is important when it has no influence on your overall performance?

Also, I had no idea about that rule. My bad.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Olwen

[Da Bear]

hey my tier list made it over to this site! '3'

hi bearclaw

Hello! I hope you're enjoying this as much as I am!

Also Galeforce is great and all but Veteran is better.

[eCut]

Olwen, don't tell people you've reported them, it's against the rules.

As for the rest of it, well, I have to read it all before making a verdict. But know that I am watching this topic so try to behave.

[Da Bear]

Olwen, don't tell people you've reported them, it's against the rules.

As for the rest of it, well, I have to read it all before making a verdict. But know that I am watching this topic so try to behave.

I'm behaving myself and watching the fireworks quite happily!

On a different note, I think you're taking this a bit far Constable... changing your name and using FftF was funny but here it's more like annoying trolling.

[Constable Reggie]

Why do you keep thinking I'm trolling? I legitimately love galeforce. It's no different from someone renaming theirselves to Sumia, or using a Cordelia avatar.

[Da Bear]

Why do you keep thinking I'm trolling? I legitimately love galeforce. It's no different from someone renaming theirselves to Sumia, or using a Cordelia avatar.

It kind of is different. The people who rename for fave characters and the like don't run into debates and insist that not using that character is pure evil and failure to use them is proof of ignorance and amateurity. (if that's actually a word...)

I get that you like Galeforce but you're just taking things too far.

[Constable Reggie]

I tend to keep most of my extremist and exaggerated attitude regarding galeforce in the fttf threads, where it's allowed. My posts in the rest of the subforums, I believe, reasonably represent my views on Awakening play and galeforce. Regarding the post that was reported, I admit that insulting Interceptor was unnecessary, but I was reasonably angry that he would say that to Olwen.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Constable Galeforce

[Meteor]

The reason it isn't good on Morgan and Lucina is because by the time they arrive the game has already been trivialized. You have been avoiding this argument for a while now. Care to give me a counterargument for my claim?

For the sake of argument, let's say the game wasn't trivialized by that point (perhaps by the player restrictions). Then if you throw Veteran into the mix, it's immediately a very strong skill.

Having too much of a good thing is not an argument against it. If every single character had Galeforce, you wouldn't say it's a bad skill just because you only need it on a couple key units in order to clear the map quickly.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Meteor

[eCut]

READ THIS POST

Oh dear lord, this is too much. I've locked the topic momentarily so that I can collect my thoughts. Since this isn't my area of expertise and because the mods who are active in this section are not on, I'm going to give it my best shot~

Firstly: Olwen, as I have said before, don't tell people you've reported them.

Secondly: Olwen, people are allowed to have different opinions than you.

Thirdly: Constable, it is not necessary to insult someone.

Fourthly: Bearclaw and Constable, your little side conversation is not necessary and is off-topic, so end it.

Fifthly: As a general thing (you know who you are), it's not necessary to report every single post. We (the staff) do not just read the reported post, we read them all, so you don't need to report post after post. (And don't respond to this in this topic -- if you want to discuss it, PM me)

Lastly: I'm unlocking this topic now but for God's sake, keep it civil and cut the crap; you can have a debate without resorting to childish means. So stop the trolling, stop the immaturity, and get back on topic. Failure to do so will result in a warning.

[Interceptor]

Okay. Care to explain to me why Veteran is important when it has no influence on your overall performance?

I wouldn't concede that it has no influence on your overall performance. But to your question, no. If it's not already evident to you that there are things unrelated to your personal metrics that are "important", this 16-bit animated GIF of a dog has scant chance of being able to sufficiently explain it prior to the heat death of the universe.

[Chiki]

I wouldn't concede that it has no influence on your overall performance. But to your question, no. If it's not already evident to you that there are things unrelated to your personal metrics that are "important", this 16-bit animated GIF of a dog has scant chance of being able to sufficiently explain it prior to the heat death of the universe.

I think you're just trying to avoid answering my question. I'm merely asking you why you think it's important. This has nothing to do with my personal beliefs. I'm simply asking you to make your argument rigorous. Why is it that Veteran matters when it makes a unit overpowered if it has no effect on overall performance?

Edited May 23, 2013 by Olwen

[Baldrick]

The assumption made by the question is invalid. If Veteran makes a unit overpowered, then it has an effect on your overall performance.