The Veteran and Aptitude Thread

[Lissa's Husband]

Galeforce, Owain is amzaing with it if it gets passed down to him, and so are other units with Galeforce.

[Chiki]

The assumption made by the question is invalid. If Veteran makes a unit overpowered, then it has an effect on your overall performance.

No, it doesn't. What if you didn't want to use the overpowered unit and wanted to save them for postgame? Or just used them to kill reinforcements?

That's just me being pedantic with words. You can say "if Veteran makes a unit overpowered, then if you use them seriously, it has an effect on your overall performance." But what difference does it make if you already have an overpowered Avatar who can just kill everything with Nosferatu? Not a single one. The presence of Veteran Morgan and Lucina makes the game no less broken.

Anyway, Interceptor himself (at least to my knowledge) seemed to think a skill's effect on overall performance was irrelevant, as he pointed out that if a skill can make a unit overpowered that speaks volumes of the skill itself, but he was side-stepping giving an explanation with personal attacks and rhetoric like he always does.

[Baldrick]

No, it doesn't. What if you didn't want to use the overpowered unit and wanted to save them for postgame? Or just used them to kill reinforcements?

If you never take advantage of the skill, of course it doesn't matter. But that's true of every skill in the game. If you only use Galeforce's second turn while killing reinforcements, what's the point of Galeforce?

But what difference does it make if you already have an overpowered Avatar who can just kill everything with Nosferatu? Not a single one. The presence of Veteran Morgan and Lucina makes the game no less broken.

What happens if there are two enemy squads that are passive on opposite sides of the map? Avatar will have to walk across the map to rout it if they're on their own.

Also, there may be situations where the enemies are too strong to solo, or Nosferatu is too inaccurate. Having a second unit to share the load would be helpful.

[RJWalker]

The two are completely incomparable. You can't just stick two different things towgether expect to compare them. You probably won't need Veteran anymore by the time you get Galeforce.

The skills have nothing in similar that could be used to compare them.

[Da Bear]

The two are completely incomparable. You can't just stick two different things towgether expect to compare them. You probably won't need Veteran anymore by the time you get Galeforce.

The skills have nothing in similar that could be used to compare them.

This is very true.

[Chiki]

If you never take advantage of the skill, of course it doesn't matter. But that's true of every skill in the game. If you only use Galeforce's second turn while killing reinforcements, what's the point of Galeforce?

I wouldn't deny that. That was just me being pedantic.

What happens if there are two enemy squads that are passive on opposite sides of the map? Avatar will have to walk across the map to rout it if they're on their own.

Also, there may be situations where the enemies are too strong to solo, or Nosferatu is too inaccurate. Having a second unit to share the load would be helpful.

There are no such situations in the main game. I soloed the whole game with just Sorcerer Avatar and a Chrom support with no effort at all. This was on Lunatic Mode.

Edited May 24, 2013 by Olwen

[HeroMystic]

The two are completely incomparable. You can't just stick two different things towgether expect to compare them. You probably won't need Veteran anymore by the time you get Galeforce.

The skills have nothing in similar that could be used to compare them.

This is why I said it depends on the context, and the argument as a whole is pretty silly. Veteran is used to gain more EXP per battle, while Galeforce is used to gain a second turn during the player phase. Are we speaking of an efficient playthrough? Postgame? Casual playthrough? All of the above? These need to be answered if this thread wants to be taken seriously (and I have my doubts this thread is supposed to be taken seriously).

[Baldrick]

There are no such situations in the main game. I soloed the whole game with just Sorcerer Avatar and a Chrom support with no effort at all. This was on Lunatic Mode.

The first scenario never comes up? I had heard the map design was bland but that's just silly

In that playthrough, Lucina and Morgan were never used, right? So they never became overpowered. Therefore, it isn't relevant to the question posed in post 49.

[Chiki]

The map design is about as bland and unmemorable as Shadow Dragon.

It is relevant because my argument is that the game can (potentially) easily be broken without them, and that it is pointless to break the game further with Lucina and Morgan. This considers all contexts, not just the one where Lucina and Morgan aren't used.

The worst chapters, which are earlygame, as you have no broken units to use, don't have Lucina and Morgan. My point is that what makes Veteran broken is availability. Because you can't break a game that's already broken by a Veteran Avatar.

Edited May 24, 2013 by Olwen

[Meteor]

you can't break a game that's already broken by a Veteran Avatar.

Umm so what? You keep repeating this, but I don't understand your point. It doesn't seem particularly relevant to your other argument that it's only a good skill on Avatar (which I responded to earlier).

[Chiki]

Consider a game that has been made trivially easy by Sorcerer Avatar, in that the enemy can't do a single thing to you throughout the entire game. With Nosferatu Avatar, you've become unbeatable. No matter what, the enemy cannot defeat you. The game has become a joke.

Now consider adding Veteran Lucina and Morgan into the mix. Does the game become any easier?

Edited May 24, 2013 by Olwen

[Meteor]

No, they wouldn't make it easier. But again, what is your point?

[Da Bear]

Umm so what? You keep repeating this, but I don't understand your point. It doesn't seem particularly relevant to your other argument that it's only a good skill on Avatar (which I responded to earlier).

"If the game is already broken there's no point breaking it again."

[Chiki]

That if the game has already been trivialized by the time Lucina and Morgan arrive, why does that mean Veteran is good because of Lucina and Morgan? Why does it make Veteran good, if Lucina and Morgan arrive when the game is already easy?

[HeroMystic]

No, they wouldn't make it easier. But again, what is your point?

The point is training Morgan and Lucina when you're already breaking the game is redundant. Therefore, Veteran as a skill isn't as valuable.

[Da Bear]

The point is training Morgan and Lucina when you're already breaking the game is redundant. Therefore, Veteran as a skill isn't as valuable.

You're forgetting that Veteran is the best way to break the game before they (Morgan and Lucina) come.

[Meteor]

Because when you're at the point where you already have sufficient firepower, the skills that provide the most overkill would be the best skills to have. But yeah, based on that scenerio where Avatar has already broken the game, the kids could have Special Dance for all we care.

Edited May 24, 2013 by Meteor

[Chiki]

Basically, my claim is that what makes Veteran so good is availability. If Veteran never existed earlygame and Morgan and Lucina came with it, I assure you it wouldn't be as broken. You could still have an army of Sorcerers to break the game.

Edited May 24, 2013 by Olwen

[Meteor]

Very true, though I suppose every skill is subject to availability to some degree. Veteran especially. It wonder how strong it would be considered if it were the lv 15 Grandmaster skill instead.

Edited May 24, 2013 by Meteor

[PuffPuff]

You could still have an army of Sorcerers to break the game.

Shadowgift too.

-----

Also Veteran>>>Galeforce

Because on any DLC/Spotpass/Lucina character, they can get Galeforce, or other skills through re-classing faster! No Veteran, no faster Galeforce/other skills.

EDIT: Just included Aptitude as that skill should also get an honorable mention. As it does make your characters better in a shorter amount of time like Veteran! >=)

Edited May 24, 2013 by ポーラ

[Interceptor]

I think you're just trying to avoid answering my question. I'm merely asking you why you think it's important.

This song is not about me.

This has nothing to do with my personal beliefs. I'm simply asking you to make your argument rigorous. Why is it that Veteran matters when it makes a unit overpowered if it has no effect on overall performance?

Consider a universe where one isn't doing an Avatar solo. There are reasons for it, but they aren't relevant to the point.

[HeroMystic]

You're forgetting that Veteran is the best way to break the game before they (Morgan and Lucina) come.

I never said Veteran isn't valuable at all, just not as valuable on Lucina/Morgan.

[Chiki]

This song is not about me.

Consider a universe where one isn't doing an Avatar solo. There are reasons for it, but they aren't relevant to the point.

No one is saying you have to do an Avatar solo. But it still doesn't change the fact Veteran Lucina and Morgan can't allow you to break the earlygame, which is undoubtedly the hardest part as your units aren't trained. Once your units are trained, however, you'll find that the midgame and lategame aren't really as important as having Veteran earlygame.

[Tables]

Regarding aptitude: As it is, the fact it's locked to one character plus his children is a serious limitation, especially as that character is so hard to level up at first. If it were available in place of Veteran, it would probably still be not quite as good. Veteran levels you up 50% faster, but that quickly tapers due to base EXP gain decreasing as level increases, after which you're probably gaining more from Aptitude than you would from Veteran by a moderate margin. But then there's two issues: 1) Veteran gets you to more skills more quickly and 2) Veteran gives you quicker bonuses in the earlygame, which is the hardest part.

[Da Bear]

Regarding aptitude: As it is, the fact it's locked to one character plus his children is a serious limitation, especially as that character is so hard to level up at first. If it were available in place of Veteran, it would probably still be not quite as good. Veteran levels you up 50% faster, but that quickly tapers due to base EXP gain decreasing as level increases, after which you're probably gaining more from Aptitude than you would from Veteran by a moderate margin. But then there's two issues: 1) Veteran gets you to more skills more quickly and 2) Veteran gives you quicker bonuses in the earlygame, which is the hardest part.

Veteran can get one more user than Aptitude. The being locked onto a small amount of units is a trivial concern.

Aptitude allows you to get the stats faster 1 Aptitude level is better than 1.5 Veteran levels. As time goes along it becomes 2 vs. 3 and so on but eventually the Veteran person is such a high level that they level at around the same rate.

They're pretty even imo.