The Foreseer Paradox

[Myke]

In the Chapter 6 opening, Lucina announces that she is about to save Chrom's life and proceeds to dispatch an assassin.

If Chrom was meant to die there, along with Emmeryn, then he never goes on to marry and Lucina is never born - meaning she can't come back to save him. So uh... that's a thing.

Sorry if this is old news to everyone :~

[algae]

She later goes on to say that the assassin would only have gravely wounded him, which would have set off the chain of events that eventually killed him.

Edited May 26, 2013 by Alg

[Myke]

oh okay

[Klokinator]

Well isn't that a nice writers copout.

[shadowofchaos]

It's also changed from the localization. Because you know, lip synch movements.

"You there hiding in the bushes, I know you're there. Come out."

*slash*

"Do you believe me now?" (About the future stuff)

Edited May 26, 2013 by shadowofchaos

[Armaada J]

Well, think about it.Is "Im about to save you from an injury you'll probably recover from" or "Im gonna save your life" more convincing?

[Robinigo]

The whole future children paradox bothers me. Child lives through terrible future to return to past, assures terrible future never happens, child never grows up to live through perilous future and never comes back through time. Child disappears from existance? Wouldn't that create a looping paradox? Because then the past re-screws up because the child never shows up and it goes on forever. I'm not a temporal physicist, I won't pretend this post made any sense.

[Acacia Sgt]

It really depends on what time theory you subscribe to. Or just discard trying to find logic when it comes to time traveling...

[Robinigo]

It really depends on what time theory you subscribe to. Or just discard trying to find logic when it comes to time traveling...

I've given up, but that doesn't mean it doesn't rub me the wrong way

[Rewjeo]

The whole future children paradox bothers me. Child lives through terrible future to return to past, assures terrible future never happens, child never grows up to live through perilous future and never comes back through time. Child disappears from existance? Wouldn't that create a looping paradox? Because then the past re-screws up because the child never shows up and it goes on forever. I'm not a temporal physicist, I won't pretend this post made any sense.

They aren't actually traveling through time. They're traveling through otherwise identical universes. The multiverse theory is pretty unarguably true within this game when you look at all the DLC stuff.

[Acacia Sgt]

They aren't actually traveling through time. They're traveling through otherwise identical universes. The multiverse theory is pretty unarguably true within this game when you look at all the DLC stuff.

No, they are traveling through time. Otherwise, the whole "The Avatar can permanently kill off Grima" wouldn't work if it turned out it was only a dimensional counterpart.

[FeFish]

if Lucy is like 1 when the valm thing starts then how does she have any memories of Chrom?

[Myke]

The whole future children paradox bothers me. Child lives through terrible future to return to past, assures terrible future never happens, child never grows up to live through perilous future and never comes back through time. Child disappears from existance?

I don't think it works like that. Those events still happened in the past for the children: it doesn't unhappen for them. In essence, their timeline is the real one, and the universe just reverted to an earlier state at the point they jumped with time continuing to flow forwards normally. Both futures exist, one after the other.

No, they are traveling through time. Otherwise, the whole "The Avatar can permanently kill off Grima" wouldn't work if it turned out it was only a dimensional counterpart.

Actually, it's stated somewhere that Grima followed Lucina back and tried to possess Robin before he was ready, which causes the amnesia. Unless this process destroyed that particular incarnation of Grima, I think this means there was two of them. Which means they have a sequel hook :T

[MarioKirby]

I've found that the time-travel shenanigans in this game are a lot like the ending of Ocarina of Time and its effect on the Zelda timeline.

In Ocarina of Time, Link ends up sealing away Ganondorf at the end of the game; he then is sent back in time by Zelda. After traveling back to before he and Zelda meet, he uses his knowledge of what will happen to help Zelda expose Ganondorf's façade, setting up the backstory for Twilight Princess. This creates a branch in time at the point where the past events were changed, as opposed to the new events overriding the original.

In this game, the children go back in time to try and change the screwed future that they were a part of. They still retain their memories of this future, however, which is how they're able to identify what needs to be changed to prevent their future from playing back out again. In doing so, they create a branch in time at the point where the past was changed, which, like above, don't override the events that transpired in the original flow of time.

tl;dr, see below:

,-----------------------------------------------------------------(They go back in time...)----------------------------------------------------------------------,

v |

----(Point where past was or wasn't altered)-------------- Original future where Gimle took over. The children (save for Morgan) still remember this. -'

\

\

\------------ Second future where Chrom doesn't die, Gimle is defeated.

(Sorry for huge post.)

[Robinigo]

They aren't actually traveling through time. They're traveling through otherwise identical universes. The multiverse theory is pretty unarguably true within this game when you look at all the DLC stuff.

That explains a lot, I don't buy the DLC

[Acacia Sgt]

Actually, it's stated somewhere that Grima followed Lucina back and tried to possess Robin before he was ready, which causes the amnesia. Unless this process destroyed that particular incarnation of Grima, I think this means there was two of them. Which means they have a sequel hook :T

No, both are present and account for. During the final chapter we fight on top of present!Grima in it's true form, while fighting against future!Grima who is using the body of the future!Avatar. Whatever happens to one happened to the other, regardless of what ending you went for.

[Renne]

if Lucy is like 1 when the valm thing starts then how does she have any memories of Chrom?

Why shouldn't she? Lucina and the other children were way older when they traveled back in time....

The whole future children paradox bothers me. Child lives through terrible future to return to past, assures terrible future never happens, child never grows up to live through perilous future and never comes back through time. Child disappears from existance? Wouldn't that create a looping paradox? Because then the past re-screws up because the child never shows up and it goes on forever. I'm not a temporal physicist, I won't pretend this post made any sense.

I don't think it works like that. Those events still happened in the past for the children: it doesn't unhappen for them. In essence, their timeline is the real one, and the universe just reverted to an earlier state at the point they jumped with time continuing to flow forwards normally. Both futures exist, one after the other.

I think the bolded part explains it. Just because they traveled back in time doesn't mean they're undoing anything... and the parents learn about what happens now so the children's future (of despair) doesn't happen.

Time travel is serious business.

[shadykid]

if Lucy is like 1 when the valm thing starts then how does she have any memories of Chrom?

the original war took longer cause the Plegians weren't pansies that quit after Emmeryn's death

[Skarthe]

No, both are present and account for. During the final chapter we fight on top of present!Grima in it's true form, while fighting against future!Grima who is using the body of the future!Avatar. Whatever happens to one happened to the other, regardless of what ending you went for.

This. Because Grima's Awakening failed in the player's timeline due to the Avatar's and Basilio's interference, future!Grima had to use his own life force to resurrect present!Grima. This tied them together, such that when one (future!Grima, vulnerable due to being form-locked into future!Avatar's body) is killed, the other (present!Grima, otherwise almost invulnerable) dies as well.

And yeah, shadykid is correct about Lucina's memories. The war with Plegia lasted longer in the kids' timeline; Emmeryn's assassination meant that she couldn't sacrifice herself to bring the war to a close, causing it to drag on quite a bit longer and for other events to develop more slowly. The kids' (mostly Lucina's) presence in the player's timeline causes events to happen much more quickly.

[Anacybele]

I think that the time traveling in Awakening works like it does in Dragon Ball Z (an anime). In DBZ, Trunks went back in time to reverse the events that happened in his future, the ones that led to the deaths of everyone save him and his mother, Bulma. However, it was later realized that even though Trunks's interference DID change things a lot, it did not affect his timeline at all. Thus, a new, alternate timeline was created instead by his hand.

What I'm saying is that I think Lucina's going back in time did the same thing. It created a new timeline and an entirely different future while her own time remained unchanged. Heck, now that I think about it, I wouldn't be surprised if Awakening's plot was based partly on DBZ. They both DO originate in Japan and FE is anime-styled.

[Armaada J]

I'm guessing none of you watched the Android/Cell Saga of Dragon Ball Z. Bssically, there is a time travel story similar to this, and there are many parralel universes created as a result (4 to be exact) So the kid's bad future and Chrom's good timeline probably splt off into separate universes. Also, the whole "kids can't go back to their timeline" seemed badly done and thrown in there.

[Aquakat]

I'm guessing none of you watched the Android/Cell Saga of Dragon Ball Z. Bssically, there is a time travel story similar to this, and there are many parralel universes created as a result (4 to be exact) So the kid's bad future and Chrom's good timeline probably splt off into separate universes. Also, the whole "kids can't go back to their timeline" seemed badly done and thrown in there.

I assumed on this one that either a) they couldn't find the ritual on this one to return to their home (didn't Trunks still have his time machine? It's been a long while) or b) they just DIDN'T want to go back (and I don't blame them in the slightest).

[Acacia Sgt]

I agree. Even if they could go back, there is not much of a point. I think it was stated somewhere they were pretty much the only non-Risen left over there or at least among the very few left. Heck, even Minerva was stated to be the last of it's kind. Even if they could eliminate every single Risen in that timeline humanity will die out in a generation or two down the road.

Besides, we can't say this is the same situation as DB's Cell saga. Could they even go back to that timeline if they traveled back to the future instead of the new one they created? Trunks could since that's how DB's writers decided to handle the time traveling, but FE's writers were probably thinking something else.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Acacia Sgt

[algae]

They've also set up their kind of time travel as being very imprecise, so it's probably not 'can't get back' as much as 'can get back, but shouldn't try without divine intervention'.

[Anacybele]

I'm guessing none of you watched the Android/Cell Saga of Dragon Ball Z.

Uh, I JUST brought this up in the post before yours, so obviously, I DID watch it. >_>

Edited May 27, 2013 by Anacybele