Playing "the game"

[CT075]

Fuck. I lost the game.

god dammit

[Steampunk]

You've both said everything I've wanted to say (with a bit of trimming lengthwise)! I agree with all this.

That actually looks much better than my original. You wouldn't be considering a job as a professional post decrapifier? Seriously, sometimes I remind myself of Foghorn Leghorn: ramblin', ah say ramblin' about thangs. THANGS that is.

Edited June 12, 2013 by Sheik

[eclipse]

Personal experiences don't represent the majority of people.

Neither do blanket statements.

[Chiki]

A blanket statement means a generalized statement, so a blanket statement is by definition representative of the majority of people. =_=. The question remains, however, whether it is true or false.

And it is true. There's a million studies on this. Why else would the hook up culture be so well studied, if it didn't exist?

Sociologist Paula England of Stanford University, whose ongoing research since 2005 has surveyed more than 17,000 students from 20 colleges and universities, reported that by senior year, 72 percent of both sexes reported having at least one hookup, with the average 9.7 for men and 7.1 for women.

http://www.campusexplorer.com/college-advice-tips/3D63C2F1/College-Hookup-Culture-Myth-or-Fact/

My claim is that most people care about hooking up than about STDs and pregnancy. 72 percent of people have hooked up at least once, therefore my claim is true.

Edited June 13, 2013 by Chiki

[eclipse]

A blanket statement means a generalized statement, so a blanket statement is by definition representative of the majority of people. =_=. The question remains, however, whether it is true or false.

And it is true. There's a million studies on this. Why else would the hook up culture be so well studied, if it didn't exist?

http://www.campusexplorer.com/college-advice-tips/3D63C2F1/College-Hookup-Culture-Myth-or-Fact/

My claim is that most people care about hooking up than about STDs and pregnancy. 72 percent of people have hooked up at least once, therefore my claim is true.

. . .and you answered my question with the very definition of a blanket statement. Think of everything you are, in terms of that which is absolutely true (let's start with gender and race). Now, think of all those things that don't apply to you. Now think further of all those things that you think don't apply to the majority of those things you know are true about yourself. I can think of quite a few racial ones, all of which would derail the topic. Regardless, using blanket statements can and will piss people off, because a blanket statement about the absolute truths of someone is bound to be false sooner or later. Trying to shove people into cubbyholes that they don't fit in tends to go badly. If you are interested in improving yourself and your interactions with others, please keep this in mind.

Now, reread the TC. Next, look at yourself. Are you happy with such shallow interactions? Why not give your input on that instead? Personal experience may not mean everything, but to the person in question, it IS their everything.

[Steampunk]

A blanket statement means a generalized statement, so a blanket statement is by definition representative of the majority of people. =_=. The question remains, however, whether it is true or false.

And it is true. There's a million studies on this. Why else would the hook up culture be so well studied, if it didn't exist?

http://www.campusexplorer.com/college-advice-tips/3D63C2F1/College-Hookup-Culture-Myth-or-Fact/

My claim is that most people care about hooking up than about STDs and pregnancy. 72 percent of people have hooked up at least once, therefore my claim is true.

You really should read that study again as that's not the only thing it says. It appears you deliberately picked that statement because it supported your claim and strategically ignored the parts of that article that said hook ups didn't appear to be any more common than actual relationships. It also mentioned a report done by the National Center for Health Statistics that said there was an increase of people ages 18-24 reporting they were still virgins. It looks quite bad if you blatantly and shamelessly ignore contradicting evidence in your own cited article.

Even if the numbers of the study are true, all it shows is the number of hook ups people have had. It doesn't cover motivations, the circumstances of those hook ups, and psychoactive substances that may affect people's judgement/reduse inhibitions...none of that. So, even if that sentence you quoted is true, it still doesn't prove your claim that people are more interested in hook ups and not concerned with more long-term consequences of sex because this study only covers rates of reported hook-ups (which this article admits is a very vague term that means different things to different people), not motivations, reasoning, or what the people were thinking when they decided to "hook up."

Here is a study on hook up culture from the American Psychological Association's website.

http://www.apa.org/monitor/2013/02/ce-corner.aspx

If you have the time, you might want to look it over. I think it does a good job of investigating the phenomenon. Make sure you have an open mind and let the evidence tell its tale though. You can't properly investigate something if you already know you've got all the answers.

Edited June 13, 2013 by Sheik

[Chiki]

. . .and you answered my question with the very definition of a blanket statement. Think of everything you are, in terms of that which is absolutely true (let's start with gender and race). Now, think of all those things that don't apply to you. Now think further of all those things that you think don't apply to the majority of those things you know are true about yourself. I can think of quite a few racial ones, all of which would derail the topic. Regardless, using blanket statements can and will piss people off, because a blanket statement about the absolute truths of someone is bound to be false sooner or later. Trying to shove people into cubbyholes that they don't fit in tends to go badly. If you are interested in improving yourself and your interactions with others, please keep this in mind.

Now, reread the TC. Next, look at yourself. Are you happy with such shallow interactions? Why not give your input on that instead? Personal experience may not mean everything, but to the person in question, it IS their everything.

It isn't a blanket statement simply for the reason that I said "most people." It's true that most African Americans are stronger than whites/Asians physically; it's true that Asian Americans do better in class than whites and African Americans.

It would be a blanket statement if I said "African Americans are stronger than whites." Then the issue that you have raised would be true.

Do I seem happy with it?

You really should read that study again as that's not the only thing it says. It appears you deliberately picked that statement because it supported your claim and strategically ignored the parts of that article that said hook ups didn't appear to be any more common than actual relationships. It also mentioned a report done by the National Center for Health Statistics that said there was an increase of people ages 18-24 reporting they were still virgins. It looks quite bad if you blatantly and shamelessly ignore contradicting evidence in your own cited article.

Even if the numbers of the study are true, all it shows is the number of hook ups people have had. It doesn't cover motivations, the circumstances of those hook ups, and psychoactive substances that may affect people's judgement/reduse inhibitions...none of that. So, even if that sentence you quoted is true, it still doesn't prove your claim that people are more interested in hook ups and not concerned with more long-term consequences of sex because this study only covers rates of reported hook-ups (which this article admits is a very vague term that means different things to different people), not motivations, reasoning, or what the people were thinking when they decided to "hook up."

Here is a study on hook up culture from the American Psychological Association's website.

http://www.apa.org/monitor/2013/02/ce-corner.aspx

If you have the time, you might want to look it over. I think it does a good job of investigating the phenomenon. Make sure you have an open mind and let the evidence tell its tale though. You can't properly investigate something if you already know you've got all the answers.

I ignored that study simply because it makes no difference if there's an increasing number of virgins. That doesn't contradict my saying "most people."

I looked at your study.

In one study, among participants who were asked to characterize the morning after a hookup, 82 percent of men and 57 percent of women were generally glad they had done it (Garcia & Reiber, 2008).

This fits in "most."

Now you might argue that they might regret it later on. But then the burden of proof is on you: if you make the claim that they regret it later on because they were worried about STDs and pregnancy then the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that, yes, they regret it for that reason.

Anyway, it's self-contradictory to be worried about gaining STDs and getting pregnant significantly after you hook up because you already know you have neither of those!

Edited June 13, 2013 by Chiki

[-Cynthia-]

http://www.campusexplorer.com/college-advice-tips/3D63C2F1/College-Hookup-Culture-Myth-or-Fact/

My claim is that most people care about hooking up than about STDs and pregnancy. 72 percent of people have hooked up at least once, therefore my claim is true.

You just seem to gloss over entirely the fact that condoms exist. Just because people hook up does not mean they are putting themselves at huge risk of STDs and pregnancy. Yes, condoms are not 100% effective and they aren't always used, but your entire argument is...disingenuous.

[Chiki]

You just seem to gloss over entirely the fact that condoms exist. Just because people hook up does not mean they are putting themselves at huge risk of STDs and pregnancy. Yes, condoms are not 100% effective and they aren't always used, but your entire argument is...disingenuous.

When people get drunk, they probably won't be thinking about a condom, or will be using it imperfectly (without holding the tip when putting it on, without grabbing the shaft while pulling out, etc.). The risk of pregnancy while hooking up during inebriation is definitely worth considering.

[eclipse]

It isn't a blanket statement simply for the reason that I said "most people." It's true that most African Americans are stronger than whites/Asians physically; it's true that Asian Americans do better in class than whites and African Americans.

It would be a blanket statement if I said "African Americans are stronger than whites." Then the issue that you have raised would be true.

Do I seem happy with it?

Your original quote:

Completely agree. People today care more about satisfying themselves, regardless of the risk of STDs and pregnancy, than about being themselves and finding someone they can be comfortable with.

I don't see a most.

As for whether or not you're happy with it? I honestly do NOT know. It would be cool if you weighed in, along with why you felt that way.

Also, bar graph without context is really jarring. Like, what was that taken from? If it's anyone who screwed, then I'd expect the no condoms option to be high, because I'd assume married couples were in that mix.

[-Cynthia-]

When people get drunk, they probably won't be thinking about a condom, or will be using it imperfectly (without holding the tip when putting it on, without grabbing the shaft while pulling out, etc.). The risk of pregnancy while hooking up during inebriation is definitely worth considering.

Why are people necessarily inebriated? You're painting everyone who has 'hookups' with extremely broad strokes that may or may not be accurate.

[Chiki]

I said most after that, in the post which you quoted:

Personal experiences don't represent the majority of people.

Why would I bring this up if I was happy with it? Hook ups sicken me, and I've never hooked up with anyone in my life and I don't intend to. And I don't manipulate girls and act like someone I'm not, that sickens me too. I don't use women like toilet paper unlike most men do nowadays.

It was from here: http://www.acha-ncha.org/data/SEXF06.html

"Perceived" is what a person thinks of others using condoms, so it isn't relevant to this debate.

Why are people necessarily inebriated? You're painting everyone who has 'hookups' with extremely broad strokes that may or may not be accurate.

I never said people are necessarily inebriated.

Also, you conveniently ignored the bar graph I presented.

Edited June 13, 2013 by Chiki

[eclipse]

The post I quoted was a statement at what you've been posting in this topic. Blanket statements aren't very helpful, in this kind of topic.

Thanks for the bar graph source, but it still doesn't tell me things like sample size and whether or not married couples (or, say, an engaged couple who isn't worried about pregnancy) are included in it. If I read things right, it's also from 2006. I'm not sure how much has changed since then (perhaps it's nothing, perhaps not).

Also:

Why would I bring this up if I was happy with it? Hook ups sicken me, and I've never hooked up with anyone in my life and I don't intend to. And I don't manipulate girls and act like someone I'm not, that sickens me too. I don't use women like toilet paper unlike most men do nowadays.

Eliminate the bold part, and I think you'd get a pretty positive reaction from this quote. There's no need to put down other people when expressing yourself! I cannot say why you'd bring anything up, which is why I asked.

[Chiki]

The post I quoted was a statement at what you've been posting in this topic.

Well, it's simply truth that most men do treat women like toilet paper.

82 percent of men and 57 percent of women were generally glad they had done it (Garcia & Reiber, 2008).

Similarly, in a study of 832 college students, 26 percent of women and 50 percent of men reported feeling positive after a hookup,

The difference is quite appalling.

Thanks for the bar graph source, but it still doesn't tell me things like sample size and whether or not married couples (or, say, an engaged couple who isn't worried about pregnancy) are included in it.

The sample size is huge--it's in the link I provided you. It was around 20000 if I recall correctly. Also, it only includes college students (which is the context of this thread). I don't think it would be correct to consider married people.

I think we need to get clear on what a blanket statement is. You are accusing me of making a generalization, but upon my using the word "most," I am not generalizing anyone. It's simply truth that most African Americans are stronger than whites, and there have been many studies showing this truth. Would you accuse these studies of generalizing African Americans? No--simply because they are not generalizing the whole population. Neither am I.

[-Cynthia-]

I never said people are necessarily inebriated.

Also, you conveniently ignored the bar graph I presented.

No, but you implied that people hooking up do so because they're drunk.

Your bar graph didn't have a source to begin with so it wasn't worth responding to. I'll note that more people either aren't having sex or always use condoms than those who did not use condoms.

A word to the wise: try not to seem so judgmental. Looking down upon people who do hook-ups is a very unattractive trait.

[Chiki]

I implied nothing. I was simply attempting to offer an explanation for the riskiness of sex.

I already gave you a source, which you once again ignored.

Also, I already linked a study which said that 72% of college students do hook up--so yes, most college students do have sex.

So it's not okay to be judgmental of men who mistreat women?

Edited June 13, 2013 by Chiki

[eclipse]

Well, it's simply truth that most men do treat women like toilet paper.

Do you realize how many people you're insulting with this statement? Using "most" to "soften" it isn't even an excuse. I really want to see if a certain someone was right about you, so here's something else to consider: DON'T BLANKET INSULT, EVEN IF IT'S YOUR OWN. This is one of those situations where you apologize and never, EVER do that again. Such sentiments are extremely hurtful, and I'm not even a guy! Do NOT think that your pride and being "right" is more important than other people's feelings - it isn't, and never will be.

The sample size is huge--it's in the link I provided you. It was around 20000 if I recall correctly. Also, it only includes college students (which is the context of this thread). I don't think it would be correct to consider married people.

I think we need to get clear on what a blanket statement is. You are accusing me of making a generalization, but upon my using the word "most," I am not generalizing anyone. It's simply truth that most African Americans are stronger than whites, and there have been many studies showing this truth. Would you accuse these studies of generalizing African Americans? No--simply because they are not generalizing the whole population. Neither am I.

I'm pretty sure married couples are a minority, in terms of college students, but they exist (along with committed relationships where the consequences of sex aren't considered enough of a big deal to warrant a condom). Since I have no idea what percentage of the sample size falls under those categories, I can't really draw any sort of meaningful conclusion from that graph.

Okay, Second Point of Improvement. By going off about blanket statements, you are telling me two things (whether you intend to or not is another matter). First, you are saying that you MUST be right, all the time. This comes across as arrogant, which is a quality I do not like in anyone. The second thing is that you're arguing for your right to pigeonhole people. This comes across as off-putting, because I get the sense that you'd rather put people in "classes" as opposed to truly getting to know them. Now, if you wish to continue this image, then keep on doing what you're doing. If you wish to improve, then consider that this sort of thread doesn't end with someone being right. If you aren't comfortable with being Just An Opinion, then debate is NOT for you.

[-Cynthia-]

Also, I already linked a study which said that 72% of college students do hook up--so yes, most college students do have sex.

So it's not okay to be judgmental of men who mistreat women?

Most college students do have sex, but your graph was rather inconclusive on their frequency of condom use. "Within the past 30 days" misses a significant portion of sexually active people- many of whom may use condoms on a regular basis.

Why are hookups men mistreating women? Women can be consenting partners in a noncommittal sexual relationship.

[ReformBlade]

You can't be yourself if you want to get a girlfriend or get laid period. If you don't play games then you won't get what you want.

Honest people are boring and they don't have any friends. Being honest will only make you predictable or a complete nutcase ( man this person is really ugly right in the face of said person). Being predictable(not using any game) is good if you want gold diggers that are only after your money/statut.

OP you don't have to feel bad about being manipulative but you don't have to go out of your way either to be manipulative.

Relationship are nothing more than games. Get too serious in them and you'll get hurt REAL BAD.

The only people that will EVER love you inconditionally in life are your family(and even then it's not always the case).

Learn to not take relationships too seriously.

Look at children : They take what they wants without giving a single fuck about everything else. Then they grow up and they have to follow rules in order to take what they wants.

I'm laughing at this. I'm an extremely blunt and honest guy. I doubt there's really much boredom among my friends (Though I wouldn't say this is inherently a good or bad thing) I hang with (aside from when I get lethargic). Know why? Because I'm engaging, caring, honest, forthright, I give a shit when other people don't, I actively support people.

You say honesty is boring and playing a game of manipulation is how to win.

In the great words of lord Dracul... For what profit is it to a man if he gains the world and loses his soul? Matthew 16:26, I believe.

But really, if you've gotta front and pretend and lead people on... like someone said before this, you're a damn good actor, since never fully realizing who you are as a person can be damning to people. So many people are looking to find who they are, and I'm willing to bet that people who find out theircalling, what they're supposed to be in life are better off than endlessly wearing a mask for the greater part of their life.

This isn't to say that masquerading as something you're not isn't fun, hell it can actually be healthy for someone from time to time. But to say it's the only way to succeed in life as a whole is... Well I think you're dead wrong, sorry.

[Chiki]

Do you realize how many people you're insulting with this statement? Using "most" to "soften" it isn't even an excuse. I really want to see if a certain someone was right about you, so here's something else to consider: DON'T BLANKET INSULT, EVEN IF IT'S YOUR OWN. This is one of those situations where you apologize and never, EVER do that again. Such sentiments are extremely hurtful, and I'm not even a guy! Do NOT think that your pride and being "right" is more important than other people's feelings - it isn't, and never will be.

I'm pretty sure married couples are a minority, in terms of college students, but they exist (along with committed relationships where the consequences of sex aren't considered enough of a big deal to warrant a condom). Since I have no idea what percentage of the sample size falls under those categories, I can't really draw any sort of meaningful conclusion from that graph.

Okay, Second Point of Improvement. By going off about blanket statements, you are telling me two things (whether you intend to or not is another matter). First, you are saying that you MUST be right, all the time. This comes across as arrogant, which is a quality I do not like in anyone. The second thing is that you're arguing for your right to pigeonhole people. This comes across as off-putting, because I get the sense that you'd rather put people in "classes" as opposed to truly getting to know them. Now, if you wish to continue this image, then keep on doing what you're doing. If you wish to improve, then consider that this sort of thread doesn't end with someone being right. If you aren't comfortable with being Just An Opinion, then debate is NOT for you.

We just talked about this. Saying most men don't care about women is not a blanket statement, because it has the word "most."

I'm looking at the data, and it's telling me that 82% of men enjoy hook ups and they feel less bad about them than women do. This is a rate far less than women. Just because the fact makes you uncomfortable doesn't mean it isn't true. If I read a study about how intellectually inferior most white people were to Asian Americans, I'd be forced to admit that it's true simply because the study says so. I'm not saying this to insult anyone--to say uncomfortable truths is necessary.

If multiple scientific studies confirm what you're saying, then what you're saying has to be true. It isn't like I enjoy the fact that most men treated women badly--but they do, unfortunately, and I'm forced to admit it because the studies prove me right. I'd love to admit I'm wrong if someone could give me a genuinely good reason as to why I'm wrong.

7 percent of college students are married. http://www.campusexplorer.com/college-advice-tips/CF0064F6/Married-College-Students/ This is a minority not even worth considering.

Most college students do have sex, but your graph was rather inconclusive on their frequency of condom use. "Within the past 30 days" misses a significant portion of sexually active people- many of whom may use condoms on a regular basis.

Why are hookups men mistreating women? Women can be consenting partners in a noncommittal sexual relationship.

If people use condoms on a regular basis, they're not going to stop within the last 30 days of asking for no reason at all.

Edited June 13, 2013 by Chiki

[eclipse]

We just talked about this. Saying most men don't care about women is not a blanket statement, because it has the word "most."

I'm looking at the data, and it's telling me that 82% of men enjoy hook ups and they feel less bad about them than women do. This is a rate far less than women. Just because the fact makes you uncomfortable doesn't mean it isn't true. If I read a study about how intellectually inferior most white people were to Asian Americans, I'd be forced to admit that it's true simply because the study says so. I'm not saying this to insult anyone--to say uncomfortable truths is necessary.

If multiple scientific studies confirm what you're saying, then what you're saying has to be true. It isn't like I enjoy the fact that most men treated women badly--but they do, unfortunately, and I'm forced to admit it because the studies prove me right.

7 percent of college students are married. http://www.campusexplorer.com/college-advice-tips/CF0064F6/Married-College-Students/ This is a minority not even worth considering.

If people use condoms on a regular basis, they're not going to stop within the last 30 days of asking for no reason at all.

Dude, did you even read the rest of that? You're putting your own pride before everything else. This is part of the reason why you're running into problems with everyone! You've got someone who looks out for you; in return, make sure that person doesn't look stupid every single time he tries to say something good on your behalf. I've tried to give you tips on what you can improve on, and instead you ignore them. Instead of relying on pure science to prove yourself right (and make you and your friend look much worse), do what you can to improve yourself. Just because science says my gender should be worse at math doesn't mean I'm gonna state it as fact whenever the subject comes up. How do we know that it's not a self-fulfilling prophecy? This goes for men, too.

I think the truth you adhere to is something that is true because it keeps getting repeated, and passed down. Do you plan on perpetuating this "truth", just so you can be right? Or are you willing to break it, and pass on what you think is right?

[Chiki]

Just because science says my gender should be worse at math doesn't mean I'm gonna state it as fact whenever the subject comes up.

This is a serious discussion forum. I'm bringing it up because this is a serious issue and the truth of the state of the world. Why shouldn't I bring it up? Just because you find it offensive? That's what "the game" is.

[eclipse]

This is a serious discussion forum. I'm bringing it up because this is a serious issue and the truth of the state of the world. Why shouldn't I bring it up? Just because you find it offensive? That's what "the game" is.

Because you step on a hell of a lot of toes when you do so, which in turn will affect how others view you outside of this thread. Remember that a lie repeated often enough becomes indistinguishable from the truth. Humans have advanced on the rights front, and I believe that we'll be able to overcome the mistreatment of women. For that to happen, the "truth" of men mistreating women needs to be changed, and you stating it as fact is a step in the wrong direction. From the people I've seen around me, I think it is possible to create a society where men and women are equally respected. You seem to think that you're part of the minority. Are you willing to let go of science and advocate what you seem to believe in?

There's ways of doing so without ticking off other people. If you're as smart as you seem to think you are, I'm sure you'll figure it out. Otherwise, I'm willing to explain it via PM.

[Chiki]

Humans have advanced on the rights front, and I believe that we'll be able to overcome the mistreatment of women.

Glad to see that you agree with me. But I can't agree that lying to people about the truth is a way to solve a problem. That has never happened in history--slavery wasn't solved simply because people lied about black people being free, women weren't given more rights simply because they lied about it, and so on. I'd really have to see evidence of your claim working.

The only way to solve a problem of a wide scope is to admit that it's there, tell others that it is, and educate people on it. AIDS in Africa won't be solved by lying about it and not giving people condoms to lessen the risk. The truth has to be said regardless of what others think. I don't really care if people dislike me simply because I'm telling them something that is true and it makes them uncomfortable. So be it.

[eclipse]

Glad to see that you agree with me. But I can't agree that lying to people about the truth is a way to solve a problem. That has never happened in history--slavery wasn't solved simply because people lied about black people being free, women weren't given more rights simply because they lied about it, and so on. I'd really have to see evidence of your claim working.

The only way to solve a problem of a wide scope is to admit that it's there, tell others that it is, and educate people on it. AIDS in Africa won't be solved by lying about it and not giving people condoms to lessen the risk. The truth has to be said regardless of what others think. I don't really care if people dislike me simply because I'm telling them something that is true and it makes them uncomfortable. So be it.

There's a difference between stating truth as truth and defending said truth, versus using the truth as a way to say "and fuck the current state of affairs". You come across as doing the former, whether you intend on doing so or not. Rather than be a truth-bot who aims for correctness, work on being someone who can use the truth to change what is "right".

I want to take you at your word, but I can't. Show me that you believe in it.