Hardest FE mode (except FE13 Lunatic+)

[Chiki]

This isn't an efficiency thread.

No, Chapter 2 of Lunatic+ is always bad because of the chance that the enemy may have Luna+.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Chiki

[Junkhead]

This isn't an LTC thread. No one cares about turns here.

Being a topic you made, I highly doubted it wouldn't matter.

I'm perfectly fine with it, and I think it's a decent way of judging these things.

[Blademaster!]

No, Chapter 2 of Lunatic+ is always bad because of the chance that the enemy may have Luna+.

It really isn't if you're willing to sacrifice someone. The only reason Chp2 gave me trouble was because I tried to keep everyone alive, which caused me vastly more restarts than Frederick dying.

[Chiki]

Being a topic you made, I highly doubted it wouldn't matter.

I'm perfectly fine with it, and I think it's a decent way of judging these things.

We all know you're just trying to be annoying because you have something against me--no one brought up LTC into this thread.

It really isn't if you're willing to sacrifice someone. The only reason Chp2 gave me trouble was because I tried to keep everyone alive, which caused me vastly more restarts than Frederick dying.

Base Frederick dies in two Luna+ hits to pretty much anyone even on a mountain. It's a lot easier to sacrifice units, yes, but it's probably the hardest challenge FE has to offer regardless--and that is what this thread is about, because it's about the hardest within the context of FE regardless of how easy it is. For example, FE9 NM is harder than FE8 NM even though both are really easy.

[Junkhead]

We all know you're just trying to be annoying because you have something against me--no one brought up LTC into this thread.

Wait, me? For all I remember, I've been one of the very few actually supporting LTC ideas.

[dondon151]

Trivializations vary between games. FE5, for example, has chapters in which you can't warp skip, and so on. That's a very narrow minded way of thinking.

how can you criticize this as a narrow-minded way of thinking when i was merely taking your statement to its logical extreme? this is your narrow-minded way of thinking.

you can literally warpskip every chapter in FE5 after chapter 8x if you invest properly in saphy. the game has moderately difficult earlygame maps (though 1, 2, 3, 6, 8 are still super easy), but they don't hold a candle to FE6 HM chapters 4, 5, or 7.

Edited June 14, 2013 by dondon151

[Chiki]

how can you criticize this as a narrow-minded way of thinking when i was merely taking your statement to its logical extreme? this is your narrow-minded way of thinking.

you can literally warpskip every chapter in FE5 after chapter 8x if you invest properly in saphy. the game has moderately difficult earlygame maps (though 1, 2, 3, 6, 8 are still super easy), but they don't hold a candle to FE6 HM chapters 4, 5, or 7.

You can take it to its logical extreme, but you aren't doing it right. You can't trivialize every game right away, or trivialize it in some aspects but not in others.

Ex: FE8 starts out with Seth, but this trivializing factor only lasts until lategame? I've never tried it but I'm guessing that's how it works.

Ex: FE5 can't be trivialized until the Warp staff.

Ex: FE9 can't be trivialized until BEXP.

Ex: FE13 can be trivialized right after Prologue!

Since FE13 can be trivialized so quickly, I ranked it the easiest. Taking "my logic to its extreme," on your part, I'm afraid, didn't work.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Chiki

[dondon151]

your examples are so wrong, since i'm guessing you haven't even played most of these games before

FE8: seth easily lasts into lategame - give seth all of the bosskills and he'll reach L20 by the end of the game, no problem, and his growths are good. FE8 has a solid supporting cast of prepromotes and some knowledge of barrier spam to get staff users to A rank is necessary, but this is also "trivial."

FE5: eyvel is invincible in chapters 1-3, dagda is amazing, and finn is amazing. give the chapter 1 life ring and chapter 2 speed ring to leif, and bring only the light sword to manster. use said buffed up leif to trivialize chapters 4 - 5. chapter 6 you literally have to fight like, 3 enemy units, there's an easy way to do chapter 7, chapter 8 is easy, chapter 8x is made easier by promoted asvel. warpskip the rest of the game.

FE9: hello, titania?

even if these games are not as simple as "train unit to rape face," they are still trivial with these key points in mind.

EDIT: also i am not sure if you are claiming that these games are trivial to play efficiently or inefficiently. since you propose an inefficient way to train avatar in FE13, i'm assuming the latter. you can pretty much solo FE8 with seth and it's even easier to have leif and asvel dominate chapters 4-8x in FE5.

Edited June 14, 2013 by dondon151

[Chiki]

FE5: It's preferable not to use Eyvel and to use Leaf instead so Leaf does well in Manster. Base Leaf is not doing well in Manster.

FE9: It's a lot easier to bexp a unit and make them invincible. Titania is not invincible earlygame and she can die in Chapters 5 and 7.

FE13: You conveniently ignored this one.

Anyway, nitpicking the examples won't help your argument. They don't have to be right or wrong--the only thing that matters is that methods of trivializing can vary, and that the logic is right. One example is enough to prove that these methods can vary, and that one is FE13, because it can be trivialized after a single chapter.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Chiki

[General Horace]

with the speed ring in fe5 leaf has more than enough offence for manster, even at base or with a couple levels since the enemies are pretty terrible, not to mention there's asvel for manster, then you never have to worry about leaf again.

Edited June 14, 2013 by General Horace

[Thor Odinson]

you don't need to "pretty much" solo FE8 with Seth

I just flat out solo'd it (not counting 5x, but I gave all the exp there to Orson so it went down the drain anyway). The lords were base-promoted by endgame (hello 1/1 Eirika). He even took a major hit to speed/skill for at least a major portion of it due to carrying Eirika around and it was still easy. And then I ended up not being able to use characters that aren't Seth because they're too scrubby and takes effort. Whoops.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Thor Odinson

[dondon151]

FE5: It's preferable not to use Eyvel and to use Leaf instead so Leaf does well in Manster. Base Leaf is not doing well in Manster.

bull shit

not only did you ignore that i said to use the life ring and speed rings on leif, but this is utterly stupid. eyvel and leif are not competing for kills. leif is going to have a hell of a time killing the bosses that eyvel kills earlygame anyway.

FE9: It's a lot easier to bexp a unit and make them invincible. Titania is not invincible earlygame and she can die in Chapters 5 and 7.

if you're going to raise such a dumb objection, avatar can die in prologue of FE13 if the player is retarded

FE13: You conveniently ignored this one.

yeah dude, because i'm not going to talk very much about a game that i haven't played yet, mr. know-it-all. and here i am setting a good example!

Edited June 14, 2013 by dondon151

[Chiki]

Some tough guy language isn't helping your argument, and neither is ignoring the most important part of the post: the examples don't really matter and one example is enough to establish that trivializations can vary.

Anyway, getting back on topic now. I personally never soloed FE8 with Seth. Does he struggle lategame?

[General Horace]

the only boss he didn't orko was endgame lyon and the demon king in my efficiency run, and he could have with crits i was not willing to rig

yeah

edit: this wasn't a seth solo either, he didn't get all the statboosters, since Saleh needed energy rings for warp range, although iirc he ended up capping strength or coming close to it anyway.

Edited June 14, 2013 by General Horace

[dondon151]

Some tough guy language isn't helping your argument, and neither is ignoring the most important part of the post: the examples don't really matter and one example is enough to establish that trivializations can vary.

what was the argument again? that you can't trivialize every game right away like you can with FE13? i just showed that you can trivialize FE5, FE8, and FE9 right away. do i win this argument?

[Chiki]

what was the argument again? that you can't trivialize every game right away like you can with FE13? i just showed that you can trivialize FE5, FE8, and FE9 right away. do i win this argument?

FE13 isn't right away. It's one chapter later.

[XeKr]

How is FE13 "trivial" if the prevailing opinion is it's extremely difficult (particularly earlygame)? People usually have to be told the "solution" before they think it's really easy. Which can be said for any FE challenge.

I think most people do not come up with the +Def strategy on their own. (I didn't either. I thought +Spd was the way to go initially.). Let someone try a blind run of FE13 Lunatic and I'd imagine they'd find it quite challenging. Probably much harder than FE7, 8, 9, 10 HM.

Edited June 14, 2013 by XeKr

[Chiki]

It seems to be both of our opinions that a game is trivial when there is a method to trivialize it, regardless of the opinion of the majority. One can have different opinions on what trivial is.

[XeKr]

I think all things are trivial if you know the answer in advance. >_<

[Chiki]

Yep, it's like a math problem. The path to arriving to a solution may be hard, but solving the problem after you find the solution is quite trivial.

[General Banzai]

I haven't played FE13 or FE12, which apparently have the hardest game modes, but other than that, I'd say Thracia is the hardest, FESD H5 is second, and HHM is third.

(I also haven't played FE6 HM, because I can't bring myself to play that game a second time.)

[Blademaster!]

It's one chapter later.

Well, that's one more chapter than it takes to trivialize games like FE1, FE2, FE3, FE4, FE5, FE7(if you start straight in Eliwood mode), FE8, and FE11! You see, all those chapters let you do something called boss abuse right off the bat in the very first chapter, except FE4 and FE8 which give you Sigurd and Seth, and they break the game anyway at base, with Oifaye and Shannan probably able to do everything in FE4 part 2 easily, especially when your holsety user shows up. Regardless, to trivialize the other games, what you do is you let the boss use up all his weapon uses on the thrown, and then you leech exp from him for as long as possible. FE1, FE3(both books), and FE11 have forts in their beginning chapter (along with healers) that make it easy to have them use up all their weapon use and leech exp off of them. FE5 doesn't have forts or healers, but lets you use Leaf's light sword as a worst case if need be and also has vulneraries that heal you to full HP anyway. With proper AI manipulation, you can easily leech exp off all the enemies you face in the first chapter of FE2.

But hey! Once you reach the second chapter of FE6 and FE9, you can perform this same strategy again(I don't think you can do it with the first chapter of FE6 since the boss deals too much damage and there aren't enough vulneraries, but maybe I'm wrong?)!

FE7(if you start with Lyn or Hector), FE10, and FE12 don't let you boss abuse for a while in each of their games sadly (sadface ;_;) so it takes a bit longer to reach a chapter where you can start trivializing the game, but once you get there, you're gold!

But wow! Just look at how easily we just trivialized each FE game. Sounds like the only difficulty found in the game is the artificial difficulty of waiting for a chapter where we can boss abuse! I'm glad that if we think of the best way to manipulate the system, we can come up with such easy ways of trivializing each FE game, regardless of how much time they take to do! It's a good thing that FE13 at least removed the ability to boss abuse, but I guess Veteran ended up making up for that anyway! What a shitty franchise Fire Emblem is for making it so easy to trivialize each game. It's just like how you can go to the max level of any RPG once you leave the first town and have access to infinite monster fights. So maybe we shouldn't stop at calling Fire Emblem shit, but all RPG games in general shit because of this! What a trivially easy genre of gaming!

[Chiki]

I'm sorry, but why are you just disagreeing with everything new I say in this thread after you can't find a reply to something else?

Nothing you said just changed the fact that one FE game, FE13, is trivialized one chapter after other FE games, like 8, in which Seth shows up. That difference is what allows us to rank FE13 above 8, because one FE game is trivialized after the Prologue and one is trivialized immediately.

[Blademaster!]

I'm sorry, but why are you just disagreeing with everything new I say in this thread after you can't find a reply to something else?

Nothing you said just changed the fact that one FE game, FE13, is trivialized one chapter after other FE games, like 8, in which Seth shows up. That difference is what allows us to rank FE13 above 8, because one FE game is trivialized after the Prologue and one is trivialized immediately.

Well you see, you said FE13 is the least difficult FE because you can trivialize it from the second chapter of the game. But I just proved that you can trivialize other FE games right from the first chapter, and the only reason you can't do so in other games is because of artificial difficulty aka the proper requirements to boss abuse aren't met. What this means then is, by your definition of trivialization, we have an official ranking of what FE games are the most difficult:

FE12 = FE10(8 chapters to trivialize) > FE7 Lyn mode(7 chapters to trivialize) > FE6 = FE7(Hector) = FE9 = FE13(one chapter) > FE1 = FE2 = FE3(Both books) = FE4 = FE5 = FE7(Eliwood) = FE8 = FE11

There you have it, the official order of difficulty in Fire Emblem by your definition of trivialization.

Edited June 15, 2013 by Blademaster!

[Chiki]

When did I say that?

Well you see, you said FE13 is the least difficult FE because you can trivialize it from the second chapter of the game.

Quote me where I said this part please. It's so obviously false because I just agreed that FE8 Seth soloes the game from the start.