Masquerade Mafia - Universal Loss

[Nemu Kurotsuchi]

Wow, quite the speedy wagon, indeed. Now, where did I say Resolute should be lynched? I wanted to pressure someone to say something, and there was nothing else to talk about, and I didn't want him to coast on his claim. So, I wanted to start discussion by giving him something to say. Yes, it was a reaction test, why is this scummy? Presumably because I could claim that it was just a reaction test when it backfired, even if it wasn't originally, right? Avoiding this as much as possible being the reason why I crumbed it, go read my post and notice that the letters REACT are left out of various words.

Also, no, Resolute, I made no assumptions about your role. Miller is still at least partly a negative role and still an easy fakeclaim, regardless of the possibility of being combined with another role.

It's not easy for scum to claim unless they've been given either Cop or Miller as a fakeclaim. They have to know that another one doesn't exist, because only Prims setups very few setups have multiple Millers. And Orion's language of "tell me why we shouldn't lynch you for being Miller" does suggest basing the entire lynch on just the claim.

That's the same as any claim, though. And Miller isn't the most common role, so it's not that bad. People fakeclaim more common roles, so it doesn't seem like that good an argument.

Keeping my vote where it is, because I don't like the wagon on me in general, but Jugger voted after a bunch of people had already commented on the wagon building up quickly, without adding anything new or commenting on anything else except for one post without a vote, so I think he's the worst atm.

[Elieson]

In ordinance of the rules, please make all Unvote actions use #Unvote, not #unverb.

Plzkthxbye

Edited July 2, 2013 by Elieson

[Refakitty³]

You said "why shouldn't we lynch you", and if you're going to say that doesn't imply "we should lynch you", lol. Crumbing that it was a reaction test from earlier was admittedly well done, but I don't really like the whole "do something scummy on purpose to provoke reactions" thing, even if you've left a crumb from before. And besides, scum can reaction test as well (Rein, C9++). I think you did make an actual effort to use the results of your reaction test though, (as opposed to him) so I'll back off for now. ##Unvote

BTW, Miller being the same as any other claim is why we shouldn't policy lynch it any more than we would policy lynch any other role.

##Vote: Uncle Bob, due to what I (and Resolute) said earlier. He didn't take a clear stance on Orion, and despite calling out the wagon, makes no attempt to find scum there, and actually defends one of the people on it.

[Ochako Uraraka]

Orion's reaction test certainly got the ball rolling, just not in the way he expected I suppose.

[All Might]

Uncle Bob's last post rubs me the wrong way since he seems to dislike the Orion wagon, but doesn't do anything about it (where's your vote dude?) and stays pretty neutral throughout the whole post, he doesn't actually talk about his views on any of the players, just says the wagon is bad and that it formed pretty quickly.

The reason I haven't voted is because I haven't been given enough to tell me that the people on the wagon aren't just townies jumping to conclusions. Someone said that I didn't really do anything about the wagon I disliked, but I believe outing my thoughts is doing something?

Of course the hope of that statement was that people would perhaps think twice before hopping on the Orion train but it seems Jugger didn't get the memo or just didn't care as he hopped on anyway. Now THAT is a scummy vote.

##Unvote

##Vote: Jugger

Also I want other people on the Orion wagon to respond well or to hop off.

[Refakitty³]

I actually think that Jugger's vote, despite being sheepy, is less likely to be scum, because as Bob points out, several people had already called out the wagon for being fast. Jugger "not caring as he hopped on" is a towntell, not a scumtell, because scum are more wary of that than town are.

[Ochako Uraraka]

I'm not sure why you had to be certain that they weren't townies. You could've easily unvoted, so I'm not sure why you were so hesitant. And yes, you didn't do anything about the wagon. You just said it looked bad but didn't mention or vote for a single person on it, which isn't good if you were trying to diffuse the wagon.

[All Might]

Javert was totally reading this thread but decided not to post.

I actually think that Jugger's vote, despite being sheepy, is less likely to be scum, because as Bob points out, several people had already called out the wagon for being fast. Jugger "not caring as he hopped on" is a towntell, not a scumtell, because scum are more wary of that than town are.

Scum are more vigil in their efforts to stay townie, true, but that doesn't mean we should just disregard obviously scummy play because if they were scum they would be wary of doing that?

I'm not sure why you had to be certain that they weren't townies. You could've easily unvoted, so I'm not sure why you were so hesitant. And yes, you didn't do anything about the wagon. You just said it looked bad but didn't mention or vote for a single person on it, which isn't good if you were trying to diffuse the wagon.

I'm not voting for people who haven't acted suspicious in any way. If the people on the wagon were to keep their position and/or respond poorly despite what I said then I'd drop a vote down.

[Shiki Ryougi]

##Unvote ##Vote: javert

His Orion vote isn't really good; there's a lot of exaggeration over there and he's assuming Orion ignored the fact that Miller modifier with another role can exist. The post gives me vibes which say "OMG Orion you are scummy as fuck for doing that" when it was just one post and he hadn't even said much. In fact not voting that guy IMPLIED he was doing a reaction test.

I do agree with suspicions on Uncle Bob; I think his Jugger vote is somewhat lacking; at this point though I can't discern Jugger's motives; he could flip either way IMO.

[Olivier]

I imagine Jugger's theme playing everytime I post. Is that wrong?

I think the first time he voted Orion, he didn't unvote first, so he voted Orion again, but with an unvote in front of it.

I would like you to cut down the RPing a bit, Jugger. Puzzling over a post consisting of less than ten words for a minute isn't fun.

Query is true. Improper termination procedures were ordered.

Request processed. Changing settings to JUGGER.EXE...

Wow, quite the speedy wagon, indeed. Now, where did I say Resolute should be lynched? I wanted to pressure someone to say something, and there was nothing else to talk about, and I didn't want him to coast on his claim. So, I wanted to start discussion by giving him something to say. Yes, it was a reaction test, why is this scummy? Presumably because I could claim that it was just a reaction test when it backfired, even if it wasn't originally, right? Avoiding this as much as possible being the reason why I crumbed it, go read my post and notice that the letters REACT are left out of various words.

Also, no, Resolute, I made no assumptions about your role. Miller is still at least partly a negative role and still an easy fakeclaim, regardless of the possibility of being combined with another role.

That's the same as any claim, though. And Miller isn't the most common role, so it's not that bad. People fakeclaim more common roles, so it doesn't seem like that good an argument.

Keeping my vote where it is, because I don't like the wagon on me in general, but Jugger voted after a bunch of people had already commented on the wagon building up quickly, without adding anything new or commenting on anything else except for one post without a vote, so I think he's the worst atm.

Processing...The first statement is correct. A reaction gambit like that can be scummy, because programs can just backtrack on the statement to try and turn it around on others who voted to Terminate them. However, your clever way of crumbing it as a test does save you face a bit, so I'll allow you some wiggle room.

Again, the best play as Miller is to claim immediately. Even if it's a fakeclaim, it's nothing to lynch him over quite yet, so it's at most something for The Antivirus <Known to most programs as COP.EXE> to consider when choosing a program at night, and nothing more. Play is best done trying to find scummy behavior and lynching it.

##Unvote [Cancel Termination Process]

The reason I haven't voted is because I haven't been given enough to tell me that the people on the wagon aren't just townies jumping to conclusions. Someone said that I didn't really do anything about the wagon I disliked, but I believe outing my thoughts is doing something?

Of course the hope of that statement was that people would perhaps think twice before hopping on the Orion train but it seems Jugger didn't get the memo or just didn't care as he hopped on anyway. Now THAT is a scummy vote.

##Unvote

##Vote: Jugger

Also I want other people on the Orion wagon to respond well or to hop off.

RE: Previous cautionary posts were not considered when Jugger placed its Order, nor were other Termination Orders considered. A malicious program was detected, and there was plenty of good enough reason to vote over it. I do not see your problem with it, even if I was later to vote then others.

Jugger thinks Uncle Bob is hypocritical since he did not actually have anyone to vote until the wagon resolved. It seems scummy that you would wait until afterwards and jump on programs with termination orders you considered weak.

##Terminate Program: Mr. Bob

Ultimate Muscle

Posted Today, 10:33 PM

##Unvote ##Vote: javert

His Orion vote isn't really good; there's a lot of exaggeration over there and he's assuming Orion ignored the fact that Miller modifier with another role can exist. The post gives me vibes which say "OMG Orion you are scummy as fuck for doing that" when it was just one post and he hadn't even said much. In fact not voting that guy IMPLIED he was doing a reaction test.

Secondary Process: To add to this, Supreme Ruler has had very little to say. The program's Termination Orders were simple enough (and not bad), but I would like to be able to process more input from that program in the near future.

I do think the tone of this quoted input is slightly exaggerated itself, however, which makes the Termination Order seem less justified then it is, in the opinion of Jugger, and makes the post seem less sincere.

[Cú Chulainn]

##Unvote ##Vote: javert

His Orion vote isn't really good; there's a lot of exaggeration over there and he's assuming Orion ignored the fact that Miller modifier with another role can exist. The post gives me vibes which say "OMG Orion you are scummy as fuck for doing that" when it was just one post and he hadn't even said much. In fact not voting that guy IMPLIED he was doing a reaction test.

Please inform me of exactly how I exaggerated?

##Vote:Orion

The suggestion that we lynch someone because they have done town a favor and announced that their role is something that can negatively affect information roles, the ignoring of the fact that oftentimes miller is paired with something else and is rarely just vanilla miller, and then the lack of a vote on the person that you suggest gets lynched all adds up to a vote from me.

And if you say that this was all just a reaction test, I will be displeased.

Resolute, wanna explain why we shouldn't lynch you since D1 is fairly random and you have lousy role anyway?

Here is my post and Orion's post. There are three things I discuss:

1) The fact that Orion suggested that we lynch the miller.

- It was implied, at least as far as I could see, that Orion was threatening to lynch Resolute via his comment displayed above. As far as I can see, Orion said "Tell me why we shouldn't lynch you" which is implying that the town could and should lynch Resolute if he did not provide good reasoning. So my first part was not an exaggeration.

2) The fact that it seemed to me like Orion was ignoring the fact that miller is often a role modifier as opposed to a whole role

- I direct you to the "you have lousy role anyway" part of Orion's quote. How does he know that Resolute has a lousy role? For all Orion knows, Resolute could be a miller doctor or a miller vig or some other such role that is not at all a lousy role. The miller part of it is not great, but due to the fact that it can be claimed, it by itself does not make Resolute's role lousy. To me, this read like focusing solely on the fact that Resolute was miller and ignoring all other possibilities.

3) The lack of vote

- Orion didn't vote for the person he was attempting to put pressure on. No matter what his intentions were, not putting a vote down makes it worth significantly less, and if a wagon were to take off on Resolute, he could not be on it and possibly avoid getting negative attention if it were in fact a mislynch. Thus, scummy.

So, I'm not sure how there was exaggeration as you said. Next, I find Orion scummy. I do not, and I quote, believe that "'OMG Orion you are scummy as fuck for doing that'" and to connect that to my post is not only a gross misrep, but also a complete lack of understanding of the tone of my post and my views.

Finally, lack of a vote implies nothing. And either way, doing a thing that is scummy for the sake of a reaction is something that I cannot stand and do not view as something that should be done or accepted. It only serves to mess up other people's views. And as such, Orion claiming that it was a reaction test does nothing to change my view on them and I will be keeping my vote there until I see a reason to move it.

[Cú Chulainn]

Also the fact that I am shown as reading the thread does not mean I am in a position to post always. I will almost always have the thread open in my browser but will usually be doing work or more important things and not actively be paying attention to the thread.

[Refakitty³]

Being wary of jumping onto a wagon is more of a scumtell than sheeping onto one these days is. Mafia are aware of what looks bad, so it's actually scummier to be more self-aware in that way (in my opinion, anyways).

Ultimate Muscle's vote looks like a misrepresentation of Javert's vote to me. I don't particularly see how he exaggerated anything.

[Nemu Kurotsuchi]

Finally, lack of a vote implies nothing. And either way, doing a thing that is scummy for the sake of a reaction is something that I cannot stand and do not view as something that should be done or accepted. It only serves to mess up other people's views. And as such, Orion claiming that it was a reaction test does nothing to change my view on them and I will be keeping my vote there until I see a reason to move it.

There's a difference between asking someone to talk about something, and something like suggesting a NL for no good reason, then stating it was a reaction test to see who voted for them later.

I asked a question that could be considered scummy. This is not the same as just acting deliberately scummy to get votes. The only thing they have in common is both being reaction tests and both being considered scummy, and I don't think policy voting me because of putting them in the same category makes that much sense.

[Kamina]

plx cut down the roleplaying, kthx.

One early wagon later, and there's a shitton of things I don't like.

lol scum setting up mislynch ##Vote: Orion d1 isnt random

The content in this vote, and the next post, is staggering. </sarcasm>

##Vote:Orion

The suggestion that we lynch someone because they have done town a favor and announced that their role is something that can negatively affect information roles, the ignoring of the fact that oftentimes miller is paired with something else and is rarely just vanilla miller, and then the lack of a vote on the person that you suggest gets lynched all adds up to a vote from me.

And if you say that this was all just a reaction test, I will be displeased.

Why is there an assumption of what Orion will say before he has a chance to say it?

Wow, quite the speedy wagon, indeed. Now, where did I say Resolute should be lynched? I wanted to pressure someone to say something, and there was nothing else to talk about, and I didn't want him to coast on his claim. So, I wanted to start discussion by giving him something to say. Yes, it was a reaction test, why is this scummy? Presumably because I could claim that it was just a reaction test when it backfired, even if it wasn't originally, right? Avoiding this as much as possible being the reason why I crumbed it, go read my post and notice that the letters REACT are left out of various words.

Also, no, Resolute, I made no assumptions about your role. Miller is still at least partly a negative role and still an easy fakeclaim, regardless of the possibility of being combined with another role.

That's the same as any claim, though. And Miller isn't the most common role, so it's not that bad. People fakeclaim more common roles, so it doesn't seem like that good an argument.

Keeping my vote where it is, because I don't like the wagon on me in general, but Jugger voted after a bunch of people had already commented on the wagon building up quickly, without adding anything new or commenting on anything else except for one post without a vote, so I think he's the worst atm.

I don't see any response to the votes on you. In my eyes, this looks worse than your original "reaction test".

You said "why shouldn't we lynch you", and if you're going to say that doesn't imply "we should lynch you", lol. Crumbing that it was a reaction test from earlier was admittedly well done, but I don't really like the whole "do something scummy on purpose to provoke reactions" thing, even if you've left a crumb from before. And besides, scum can reaction test as well (Rein, C9++). I think you did make an actual effort to use the results of your reaction test though, (as opposed to him) so I'll back off for now. ##Unvote

BTW, Miller being the same as any other claim is why we shouldn't policy lynch it any more than we would policy lynch any other role.

##Vote: Uncle Bob, due to what I (and Resolute) said earlier. He didn't take a clear stance on Orion, and despite calling out the wagon, makes no attempt to find scum there, and actually defends one of the people on it.

I disagree with the effort put into using those results. I see no responses to the wagon. I see no analysis of the wagon. All I see is a reason to keep his vote where it is.

The reason I haven't voted is because I haven't been given enough to tell me that the people on the wagon aren't just townies jumping to conclusions. Someone said that I didn't really do anything about the wagon I disliked, but I believe outing my thoughts is doing something?

Of course the hope of that statement was that people would perhaps think twice before hopping on the Orion train but it seems Jugger didn't get the memo or just didn't care as he hopped on anyway. Now THAT is a scummy vote.

##Unvote

##Vote: Jugger

Also I want other people on the Orion wagon to respond well or to hop off.

I dislike the initial hesitation to vote someone, and the justification of his previous post. How does outing your thoughts find scum? The last sentence in this post makes me think that you're town-reading Orion. The demand in that same sentence looks really bad. Who put you in charge of what others do? This post has an amazing tone shift from the first couple of passive sentences to the rest of the post, which is aggressive.

While I don't like Orion's lack of wagon response/analysis, or Supreme Ruler's "content", Uncle Bob's quoted post is worse.

##Unvote

##Vote: Uncle Bob

[Estelle]

I am behind and will quote and make content as I go through the thread. Apologies if you have already answered any questions I ask.

On a more srious note, yay (not really), miller claim. Resolute, wanna explain why we shouldn't lynch you since D1 is fairly random and you have lousy role anyway?

Interesting. I'm sure it's been beaten to hell and back by now but lynching someone for a miller claim is quite lame. It's why we policyvig miller claims, didn't you know that?

lol scum setting up mislynch ##Vote: Orion d1 isnt random

Presumably this isn't an RVS vote; and as such I'm not particularly happy with the lack of detail in the voting reasoning; It reads like a weak attempt to start an early wagon to possibly get a mislynch by removing credibility of the attacked by just saying "lol scum doing this thing".

because you have no associative reads to go off.

Not necessarily, it depends how the town plays out the lynch. If it was a frenzied "Omg lynch the miller claim" then maybe. Otherwise, you still get reactions out of the wagon forming which means it isn't completely a waste, but still definitely suboptimal.

And Orion, if you think that lynching the Miller claim on policy is really a good idea, why aren't you voting for Resolute? Why just suggest it?

Begging the Question/Loaded Question, whichever takes your fancy (And I can't be bothered to figure it out now.). Whichever the case, I don't like this post at all.

Something about Chanserv's last post is irking me, but I'm not sure what.

Are you me in disguise? Because you're doing a good job of it.

which is why I made an exception and answered anyways, so that I could vote for Orion.

Did you ever consider waiting for the person to answer, and then getting your input in? I don't see why you needed to jump in at that specific time, just so you could get a vote in early on the wagon. What was the actual point of getting an early vote in?

I'm not particularly fond of this Orion wagon. Sure, it's not the best idea but I have seen people suggest it in the past. It also formed pretty quickly, with 4 votes in just over 10 minutes not too long after the idea was suggested.

And? What was the purpose of this part of your post? Stating facts, sure, but what does it mean?

but I believe outing my thoughts is doing something?

In relation to that post; you were mostly stating facts over actually having opinions. The only thing that was an opinion were "I'm not fond of this" in relation to the wagon itself. Everything else I quoted? Stated facts. Which aren't actually thoughts, and just pads out the post. The last part which isn't quoted was another opinion, I'll grant, but the post overall was still weak, in my opinion.

Of course the hope of that statement was that people would perhaps think twice before hopping on the Orion train but it seems Jugger didn't get the memo or just didn't care as he hopped on anyway. Now THAT is a scummy vote.

Explain the scum motive behind the wagon hopping in this instance. I want to know why exactly it looks scummy.

I actually think that Jugger's vote, despite being sheepy, is less likely to be scum, because as Bob points out, several people had already called out the wagon for being fast. Jugger "not caring as he hopped on" is a towntell, not a scumtell, because scum are more wary of that than town are.

Flawed premise. You are aware that scum can do actions like that to seem town? Take a hypothetical; say I jumped on the wagon now, now that you mentioned this. Would that make me town or not?

Now, to the fun bit. Pressure vote time.

##Unvote

##Vote: SupremeRuler

Get more opinions and clarify your exact stances. I don't like you right now.

[Rain Nijika]

So this started.

There's no difference between a mental player to alias list than a public one you post. Either might possibly alter your thinking on a player due to meta, and "take away the fun of it being an anonymous game".

##Unvote, ##Vote: Kumaneko

post plz

SOZ IM ON IT. Although this last page has had so many Walls of text that I haven't read anything really on page 5.

lol scum setting up mislynch ##Vote: Orion d1 isnt random

I saw orions post about the miller and bought it as him joking around or a reaction test type thing and I really didn't like how fast his wagon seemed to be building up. Also your posts have not been of anything except for like all joke votes and what looks like a serious vote on Orion.

##Vote: Supremeruler

I'll read page 5 in a bit.

[Refakitty³]

There's a point where you have to stop WIFOMing, or you're not going to get anything done. Scum might be aware that people might think that sheeping doesn't look self-aware, and therefore sheep, but I don't think they'd take the risk of people not thinking the way I do. And several people disagreed with me too, and found the sheeping scummy anyways. And obviously, after someone points an instance of something being a towntell as opposed to a scumtell, it's different.

Mint, if you think I'm wrong to say that Jugger's vote doesn't look that scummy, do you think that his vote is scummy?

As for the "no associative reads" thing, yeah, I mainly meant if you just do it as a frenzied thing, which was sort of the impression I got from Orion's initial post. And it ties into the "loaded" question- would you have preferred it stated in a non-question format as I did later? As I clarified earlier, I didn't like that he was cheerleading a policy Miller lynch without actually voting there himself, which is worse than pushing a policy lynch while voting there. That was what made the suggestion to lynch there bad enough for a vote, in addition to it being just a bad idea.

And no, I had no idea when Resolute was coming back. Why would I wait?

[Refakitty³]

Mint Slice, your wall of text seems to comment on what people say about things, but doesn't really comment on the things themselves.

I mentioned you not saying yourself whether or not you thought Jugger's vote was scummy. In addition to that, while you say that the policy Miller lynch is a bad idea, but you also call it "interesting", and don't actually state whether or not you think it's a scummy thing to suggest.

[Marisa Kirisame]

Looks like we're finally out of RVS.

Well then, let me drop my thoughts on the current events:

- Orion's reaction test (is that you Blitzy?) and lack of vote doesn't exactly help his case, and the lack of response to the votes on him makes it worse.

- Kumaneko hasn't posted since confirmation phase, we need more posts from you.

- I'm dying from Supreme Ruler's content overload.*detect the sarcasm

- Uncle Bob's posts doesn't particularly amuse me, but I guess I don't have to write about it seeing everything I dislike about it has been posted by someone else

For now, I'm gonna go with ##Unvote ##Vote: Supreme Ruler

And Jugger, drop the RPing *breathes*

[Olivier]

Avast! Cappn' Jugger be sailin' forth! Time to respond to thee post above, aye!

Minty, me matey, why do ye be votin' an inactive to walk tha plank when ye have all these other crew ye be greiev'n over? Who do ya then be the scummiest from all the mates ye've quoted so far, lad? Pressure votes be fine, but it seems like ye just be droppin all the suspicion ye just be lay'd dOwN! aYe`!~^$3@4421$#u;86

A malfunction has been detected in Jugger's coding. Repair program has been accessed. Jugger will be back online in several hours.

[Marisa Kirisame]

And Kumaneko has posted, I need to pay more attention.

Oh and I voted Supreme Ruler for more content which I can get something from in case someone's wondering.

[Refakitty³]

Supreme Ruler is getting unnecessary flak for what were some of the first non-RVS posts of the game. Yeah, he needs to come back and state how his opinion has changed since that initial vote, and his posts were a bit lazy, but not particularly scummy. His post saying "are you cheerleading?" is more or less the exact same thing that at least one other person said about my question asking why Orion hadn't voted Resolute, and the only actual problem that anyone has pointed out about his first post (Mint) is mostly semantic in nature.

This wagon on him is sheepy as fuck.

[Rain Nijika]

##Unvote:

That wagon is actually building up faster than I though.

Hrm.

Actually, ##Vote: Javert

I doubt scum would have tried to seriously lynch Orion for his thing but people joining in on the wagon a bit later are more likely to be scum.

Although now I need to go ISO him. SHOOT FIRST ASK QUESTIONS LATER.

[Estelle]

Mint Slice, your wall of text seems to comment on what people say about things, but doesn't really comment on the things themselves.

Um. Mind trying that again before misrepping me?

Mint, if you think I'm wrong to say that Jugger's vote doesn't look that scummy, do you think that his vote is scummy?

Making assumptions. I never implied that I was taking the contrary position, merely I'm looking for answers from the other party. Did you miss the part where I also questioned UncleBob about his choice of finding the vote scummy or did you decide to be selective?

I mentioned you not saying yourself whether or not you thought Jugger's vote was scummy. In addition to that, while you say that the policy Miller lynch is a bad idea, but you also call it "interesting", and don't actually state whether or not you think it's a scummy thing to suggest.

Interesting in the sense of "Interesting that you decide to bring this up when it's a bad idea." Learn context.

Minty, me matey, why do ye be votin' an inactive to walk tha plank when ye have all these other crew ye be greiev'n over? Who do ya then be the scummiest from all the mates ye've quoted so far, lad?

You might want to address the other people who also just voted SupremeRuler, because that's a thing. In terms of people I find scummy out of them; ChanServ, and moreso after his last posts, and SupremeRuler for being obfuscating.