Masquerade Mafia - Universal Loss

[Estelle]

and even then it still might not make sense

buzz me later if it doesn't make sense, I have to go now

[Marisa Kirisame]

Supreme Ruler, while Orion did vote, it was on RVS. And while Orion did say why he sustained his vote, Jugger has responded here and Orion made another post here and basically forgot about his Jugger vote. My first post might be a bit confusing.

And Uncle Bob's post doesn't amuse me because of his passive - aggressive switch. "You stole other people's opinions Vader!" I told you it has been posted before.

And before I forget, ##Unvote ##Vote:Orion

Orion seems worse at the moment. And can somebody post Votals cause I'm not doing it.

[No Elimination]

England should also give more opinions, I think.

I like waffles.

And speaking of waffles, Ultimate Muscle needs to be more decisive about his thoughts on Jugger and Uncle Bob. I cannot even seem to figure out which of the two he thinks could "flip either way" in his statement. :P

Orion's gone and made himself look silly with that reaction test, but I'm not seeing him as either scum or town from that alone. Doesn't everyone do reaction tests nowadays anyway?

Mint Slice, you need a cookie. :P

[Kamina]

Tone aside (if you're half as good as you're projecting, you'll find the middle ground between one-line shit post statements and overly wordy), here's what I don't like in Supreme Ruler's last post dump:

"Scum setting up a mislynch" is a valid reasoning to me, and using more words than is necessary seems like mental masturbation.

Explain things like we're idiots, because I sure as hell can't see what's going on in your brain. Besides the fact that you think Resolute is not a good lynch target.

Anyone who's voted me for "content pressure" has effectively made their vote useless in some vainglorious expectation that their vote is what prompts this wall. It isn't; I simply had nothing much to analyse at the time.

Yet you posted a long-ass explanation of why you voted for Orion earlier.

You've called the votes on you lazy and scummy; do you think any of them is worth lynching? You seem capable of dissecting a single post, so why not those who voted you?

Darth Vader: Why? How? Given the current voting trend, that seems like a really easy vote switch, and I want to see the logic behind it.

[Ochako Uraraka]

Hey, I'm back.

3) The lack of vote
- Orion didn't vote for the person he was attempting to put pressure on. No matter what his intentions were, not putting a vote down makes it worth significantly less, and if a wagon were to take off on Resolute, he could not be on it and possibly avoid getting negative attention if it were in fact a mislynch. Thus, scummy.

So, I'm not sure how there was exaggeration as you said. Next, I find Orion scummy. I do not, and I quote, believe that "'OMG Orion you are scummy as fuck for doing that'" and to connect that to my post is not only a gross misrep, but also a complete lack of understanding of the tone of my post and my views.

Finally, lack of a vote implies nothing. And either way, doing a thing that is scummy for the sake of a reaction is something that I cannot stand and do not view as something that should be done or accepted. It only serves to mess up other people's views. And as such, Orion claiming that it was a reaction test does nothing to change my view on them and I will be keeping my vote there until I see a reason to move it.

I'm not really happy with this, since he actually gave a reason for his lack of vote, and you just handwaved it. I get that you don't like people doing reaction tests, but he backed himself up with it pretty well, and it got us out of RVS so I feel like you're just looking at Orion's action in a vacuum, rather considering that it's had a pretty positive impact on the game.

Being wary of jumping onto a wagon is more of a scumtell than sheeping onto one these days is. Mafia are aware of what looks bad, so it's actually scummier to be more self-aware in that way (in my opinion, anyways).

We really shouldn't get into wifom at this stage.

I don't see any response to the votes on you. In my eyes, this looks worse than your original "reaction test".


I disagree with the effort put into using those results. I see no responses to the wagon. I see no analysis of the wagon. All I see is a reason to keep his vote where it is.

Are you criticizing him for keeping his vote in the same place as it was in RVS, when he had good reason to do it? That doesn't sound right to me.

Not particularly fond of Mint for spending an entire post talking about ChanServ and Bob, before voting for Ruler because of one post.

Vader's post here is pretty weak too, since it can basically be summed up as:
-Orion's reaction test was bad
-Hey inactive dude, get in here (weirdly he chooses to give this as much relevance as his actual read related stuff)
-SupremeRuler doesn't have a lot of content
-Bob is mafuia but I don't want to sheep other people's reasoning

And Kumaneko has posted, I need to pay more attention.
Oh and I voted Supreme Ruler for more content which I can get something from in case someone's wondering.

Why are you prodding people or not having much content at this stage? Activity blew up after the guy left, and it'd only been 24 hours or so (at the time of your vote) so I think him not having content is excusable. In fact, it sounds less like you're scumreading him, and just like you want him to post more.

I doubt scum would have tried to seriously lynch Orion for his thing but people joining in on the wagon a bit later are more likely to be scum.

Although now I need to go ISO him. SHOOT FIRST ASK QUESTIONS LATER.

This is bad. Like, really bad. Basically he's voting based on the assumption that somebody on the Orion wagon is scum, but hasn't really read up on Javert's content at all. So basically he's just blindly voting, and has an easy excuse to votehop or stay on the wagon, depending on which is favorable to him.

That makes two bad jumps on me though. I'll make sure to make a note of that in my QT.

hi manix

ChanServ, can you please let the next not-you person who gets a vote defend themselves?

I could probably get behind this. You said earlier in the game that you didn't like answering questions for other people, and defending them is pretty similar. If someone's voting for another player, they want that player's responses, not yours.

England's one post here isn't very good because it ignores the majority of the thread and just chooses to pick out two things.

Supreme's "building failsafes" thing is actually a pretty good point.

Snike needs to put my ISOs in the first post ._.

Pedit: England's last post doesn't really say anything readwise, other than that Muscle is waffling.

##Unvote

##Vote: Darth Vader

I've already said what I dislike about him, plus his last post sounds... kind of detached I guess? I mean he votes for Orion and says stuff about him in it, but I don't really feel like he suspects him that much. This probably doesn't make much sense, but meh.

[Marisa Kirisame]

@Fluttershy: Here the first first point, and the explanation can be found here the first paragraph is about Orion

[Olivier]

Jugger has run a scan and deleted some malicious files running. Resume normal activity.

As for me "flailing" and bringing up Jugger when it wasn't relevant, can you clarify your point then? My understanding was that you were saying it was scummy for me to defend Jugger's sheepy vote while calling out the SR votes as being scummy sheepy. I might have misinterpreted though.

I don't see what's unclear about SR's vote for Orion either or how he's hiding his intentions in any way. I'll let him explain himself, but I don't see anything scummy there.

So I seem to hear my name come up a lot here. Could you remind us what your actual stance on me is, since it seems relevant.

Yo! I return!

SupremeRuler seems a bit fishy to me! He was quick to label Orion as scum over his suggestion about lynching Resolute, and to call out ChanServ on cheerleading a Resolute vote. Methinks he's never heard of a reaction test before. :P I shall be keeping my eye on him!

Kumaneko! Most uncool! Why is Javert so much worse than the other people who were on Orion's wagon? Care to explain to me why you feel that the later people on that wagon are more likely to be scum than the earlier votes?

##Unvote

##Vote: Kumaneko

Good vote, bad post. Another bad "SupremeRuler is scum over his one-line post" post is getting dumb, especially since you people are only mentioning him on the wagon when it had like 3 other people initially. To be honest, I don't think any of those votes were bad, because there was solid reason to put down the votes at the time.

There is a massive lot of text walls that I don't want to read but I guess I'll have to.

[Estelle]

I have a thoughts quicktopic, so take that

Hi, I'm back.

Not particularly fond of Mint for spending an entire post talking about ChanServ and Bob, before voting for Ruler because of one post.

I already explained this a little earlier; and was evident through posts when I decided to yolo it onto ChanServ because it was a better case at the time. If you're going to mention this, can you at least look a little further and give the overall opinion on that?

[Estelle]

At this point i'm not even trying to hide my identity, so.

also England you are superobvious, unless ur roleplaying the person I think you are in which case screw you

[C. C.]

yeah but let's go for a ride here; you could have had any real reason behind what you were saying and you could have tailored a later response to fit it. it's not exactly what i'd call a definite stance, imo

There's only so many ways even I, the SupremeRuler, could spin "scum is setting up mislynch".

You're right about moving beyond pressure voting, but I still hate pressure voting. I'm only glad you decided to scumhunt instead of pressure vote. Really, I'm glad.

Darth post. I'm going to talk about that at the end. Possibly break up into two posts.

(if you're half as good as you're projecting, you'll find the middle ground between one-line shit post statements and overly wordy)

I only roleplay a SupremeRuler. If only I was one one tenth as good of a SupremeRuler in real!

Yes, I posted a long explanation of why I voted Orion. Yet it's naive to think I would not have provided this unless voted. Whether anyone votes me or not has no bearing on whether I will respond seriously to requests to clarify. The answer to, "Is anyone voting me worth lynching?" will come shortly. The short of it is: Yes. The long of it is: Orion took precedence, but things have changed.

Explain things like we're idiots,

I'll be happy to! To dumb it down to levels even an idiot should understand: Orion's request for "explain why we shouldn't lynch you" can't be answered well. Either it forces Resolute to make promises about his conduct/roleclaim ("I'll catch all scums/I'm a cop") or the more logical, "No one's posted seriously yet, lynching anyone is a crapshoot". Meaning, we might as well lynch Miller over all else. HOWEVER, the chief problem here is that in the latter case, he can proceed to vote Resolute and sit on that. In the former case, he can vote Resolute later based on not following through with his promises/set up an easy nightkill on a powerrole.

BASICALLY, idorted down even more: Question has no good answer, all answers lead to death.

Swapping vote to Darth in the next post plus explanation, breaking up for maximum ease of reading.

[Estelle]

ps: my character is the best, go home everyone.

okay done shitposting, maybe actual possibly content if I don't sleep or something in a bit

[Nemu Kurotsuchi]

- Orion's reaction test (is that you Blitzy?) and lack of vote doesn't exactly help his case, and the lack of response to the votes on him makes it worse.

Mind quoting what I should reply to, specifically?

also my grammar is totally better than Blitzy's

My top suspect at the moment. I can understand why a townie would want to make a reaction test, but when somebody makes an elaborate breadcrumb only to spend all of one paragraph evaluating the actual reaction, it screams mafia trying to look productive by faking a town tell. I'm far from impressed by him popping up afterwards to continue defending himself but ignore the influx of content after his last post, as it shows his lack of interest in anything other than the fact that he made a Reaction Test and townies make Reaction Tests and hot damn everyone look at this man right now he is a townie making a Reaction Test. For all his hot air there's no scumhunting.

Yes, I put a disproportionate amount of effort into those two posts, but is this really scummy? I achieved my primary objective, which was to make people say stuff, and the crumb succeeding in apparently making people believe it was meant as a reaction test at the absolute least, I don't think this was that bad.

And then what about the Orion wagon? Was that also "sheepy as fuck" or is it okay becaus eyou were on it? Don't be daft.

Actually, I have a better idea again.

##Unvote

##Vote: ChanServ

His last posts have been making my opinion of him worse and worse.

Anything else you wanna explain about why they're making your opinion worse?

RE: Previous cautionary posts were not considered when Jugger placed its Order, nor were other Termination Orders considered. A malicious program was detected, and there was plenty of good enough reason to vote over it. I do not see your problem with it, even if I was later to vote then others.

Jugger thinks Uncle Bob is hypocritical since he did not actually have anyone to vote until the wagon resolved. It seems scummy that you would wait until afterwards and jump on programs with termination orders you considered weak.I do think the tone of this quoted input is slightly exaggerated itself, however, which makes the Termination Order seem less justified then it is, in the opinion of Jugger, and makes the post seem less sincere.

I can't tell if this is "I skimmed/didn't read the other posts on the Orion wagon" or "I didn't sheep those guys, this was my own decision" or "Other people's votes shouldn't matter to townies so I ignored that stuff on purpose" or something else entirely. Clarify that and I'll respond to this.

[C. C.]

BOOM! Welcome to SupremeRuler's Guide to Why Darth Vader is Scummy.

Before we start: In my opinion as Supreme Ruler, pressure votes are only ever useful if done to people who resist requests from players, and who behave in scummy ways.

Using that definition, feast your eyes here: Click!

This is a Darth Vader post. It contains three opinions on two people, and a vote. That vote is later explained to be for "more content", fitting it into the idea of pressure voting.

BOLD ASSERTION: Darth Vader thought my conduct was scummy enough to warrant pressuring me for content. He did this because he thought getting content from me trumped any other scum read. Ergo, I was his top priority. (Remember this, referring back to it at the end.)

I commence haemorrhaging words here, providing enough content to at least analyse somewhat. The first Darth post after that comes here, displaying he read my posts and responded to them. He even brings up a good point about Orion.

Then he blatantly disregards any analysing of my content to attack Orion who "seems worse now". Worse meaning there's someone who seemed worse before, and BOLD ASSERTION displays my thoughts on that perfectly.

Get to the point you verbose fuck.

Right, right. Basically, Darth Vader not only committed the sin of pressure voting uselessly to appear like he's doing shit, he's also disregarding any analysis of content and quantify whether he does or does not think I'm scum at all. He never says I'm scummy to begin with and we can only assume from how he thinks I'm top priority to vote.

That he explains it's to get "more content" and then thereafter not say anything about my content despite replying to my beef with him displays an absolute disregard for the actual result of any pressure or prodding.

It's real funny; Darth acts like a right good Townie by emulating activity and decisive action (be it poorly from where I stand), but he does so in a red shirt.

And that's terrible.

##Unvote

##Vote: Darth Vader

tl;dr Darth Vader's done some scummy shit so let's lynch him

[Nemu Kurotsuchi]

HOWEVER, the chief problem here is that in the latter case, he can proceed to vote Resolute and sit on that. In the former case, he can vote Resolute later based on not following through with his promises/set up an easy nightkill on a powerrole

Lynching people when they do nothing later in the game, whether or not they've promised to be useful, is not unreasonable. The rest of your points are...valid, though I think it should be reasonably clear that I didn't expect to get away nearly so easily with voting Resolute over his claim, or even his reaction unless it was absolutely awful bad, based on my crumbing the reaction test, so it's not like using that post to set up a Resolute vote would make that much sense.

[Estelle]

Anything else you wanna explain about why they're making your opinion worse?

nothing much I haven't already said in thread. pending a second readover because i'm lazy

[C. C.]

Lynching people when they do nothing later in the game, whether or not they've promised to be useful, is not unreasonable. The rest of your points are...valid, though I think it should be reasonably clear that I didn't expect to get away nearly so easily with voting Resolute over his claim, or even his reaction unless it was absolutely awful bad, based on my crumbing the reaction test, so it's not like using that post to set up a Resolute vote would make that much sense.

Let's pretend no one suspects you're scum for a moment.

Who is scum and why? If Jugger is scum, do any of his latest posts make you think otherwise, or strengthen this belief?

[Marisa Kirisame]

@Supreme Ruler The thing you call pressure vote is my way of getting a read on everyone. I can't get a read without content and I want reads as early as possible, hence my vote. It's not exactly scumhunting but it provides resources to do so. I'll read you when I'll read you, but without any content how am I supposed to do that?

@Orion Respond to this if you'd be so kind.

[Shiki Ryougi]

My apologies, I was out of time when i made my last post. I'll try to say more stuff this time around

Please inform me of exactly how I exaggerated?

Here is my post and Orion's post. There are three things I discuss:

1) The fact that Orion suggested that we lynch the miller.

- It was implied, at least as far as I could see, that Orion was threatening to lynch Resolute via his comment displayed above. As far as I can see, Orion said "Tell me why we shouldn't lynch you" which is implying that the town could and should lynch Resolute if he did not provide good reasoning. So my first part was not an exaggeration.

2) The fact that it seemed to me like Orion was ignoring the fact that miller is often a role modifier as opposed to a whole role

- I direct you to the "you have lousy role anyway" part of Orion's quote. How does he know that Resolute has a lousy role? For all Orion knows, Resolute could be a miller doctor or a miller vig or some other such role that is not at all a lousy role. The miller part of it is not great, but due to the fact that it can be claimed, it by itself does not make Resolute's role lousy. To me, this read like focusing solely on the fact that Resolute was miller and ignoring all other possibilities.

3) The lack of vote

- Orion didn't vote for the person he was attempting to put pressure on. No matter what his intentions were, not putting a vote down makes it worth significantly less, and if a wagon were to take off on Resolute, he could not be on it and possibly avoid getting negative attention if it were in fact a mislynch. Thus, scummy.

So, I'm not sure how there was exaggeration as you said. Next, I find Orion scummy. I do not, and I quote, believe that "'OMG Orion you are scummy as fuck for doing that'" and to connect that to my post is not only a gross misrep, but also a complete lack of understanding of the tone of my post and my views.

Finally, lack of a vote implies nothing. And either way, doing a thing that is scummy for the sake of a reaction is something that I cannot stand and do not view as something that should be done or accepted. It only serves to mess up other people's views. And as such, Orion claiming that it was a reaction test does nothing to change my view on them and I will be keeping my vote there until I see a reason to move it.

1) 'Could' =/= 'Should' , and 'could' was very much implied in their post. Also, just because someone suggests something which is not popular among players does not mean they're scum.

2) I'll give you this point; even though I think one's definition of lousy would be different; Orion has now replied saying they didn't make any assumption about Resolute's role, which I think you may have missed. Thoughts on that?(its post ##76)

3) That's actually a misrep on your part; If a miller got lynched and Orion wasn't on it it'd first be dumbtown's fault; second they'd look misreable if they weren't part of the players voting for the Miller, and that'd be bad for them as scum. From your point three I'm assuming you mean people will lynch Resolute solely for being miller. Don't you think this scenario is exaggerated?

And finally I interpreted your post where you voted Orion as a bit too aggressive even if you disliked his actions. Perhpaps "omg you're scummy as fuck" would be an exaggeration on my part, but I did sense a tone of aggression in your post, which I consider unusual early on in the game.

[Elieson]

FYI I posted ISO's in my first post (the one right under the OP) for your use.

[Shiki Ryougi]

Other points to note:

- I think Kumaneko's vote on Javert is horrible; Why do you think Javert is scum out of the later Orion-wagoners?

-As far as Orion goes, I don't think they deserve this much flak for their initial actions, however they haven't contributed to scumhunting since; can't say I find it to be pro-town. The Jugger vote is weak(I disagree with the couple of votes on Jugger, they look too easy)
- England, I don't see how my last post waffled? Jugger's actions at that point could've been done by either alignment; that isn't waffling- that's a null read on my part.

-ffffff makes a pretty good point about Orion: the effort ration of crumbing a reaction test to making the reaction test effective is low to say the least.

I like Supreme Ruler's case on Darth Vader. ##Unvote ##Vote: Darth Vader

There's literally nothing in his ISO that I can say is actual contribution... apart from that point about Orion.

-The first actual 'content post' is nothing but one line summaries. Hell, you even handwave Orion's earlier post, saying they lacked response to their wagon, when in fact they did respond earlier. Whether you found this satisfactory is a different issue, but it seems to me like you didn't have a proper read of the thread at the time of that post. Assuming you did read well though, What did you mean by Orion's lack of response?

[Marisa Kirisame]

I'm bad at skimming. I like mafia, but more than 6 pages a day is killing me.

[Shiki Ryougi]

That and vote-switch from SR to Orion is questionable considering SR was on Orion earlier. Actually, what made you vote SR over Orion earlier? That'd be a better questioning; apart from Orion apparently ignoring Jugger they hadn't done anything else, so has your opinion of SR changed?

[Marisa Kirisame]

@Supreme Ruler The thing you call pressure vote is my way of getting a read on everyone. I can't get a read without content and I want reads as early as possible, hence my vote. It's not exactly scumhunting but it provides resources to do so. I'll read you when I'll read you, but without any content how am I supposed to do that?

@Orion Respond to this if you'd be so kind.

I never said Supreme Ruler is scummy to begin with.

[Cú Chulainn]

At the end of the day you've another vote on ya
And that's all you can say for the life of the scummy
It's a struggle, it's a war
And there's nothing that anyone's changing
One more day, voting around, what is it for?
One day less to be living.

is absolute REACTION TESTS BAD mentality doesn't consider why a reaction test might be scummy and that reaction to Kumaneko was just horrible. But at least he's looking for scum, unlike the guy he's voting.

Doing something scummy to get a reaction isn't the same thing as all reaction tests. Some reaction tests are fine. Some are less so. What Orion did was one of those less so examples. Doing something that you know people will likely find scummy to get reactions is bad no matter how you dress it up because it will screw with people's reads. As for my reaction, why is it horrible? There was a vote with literally nothing backing it up. I see no reason to treat it seriously until there's something that's backing it up.

As for my QT, I don't usually keep one, trying something new out this game. I'm using it to try and help keep my thoughts organized and keep updated reads.

I'm not really happy with this, since he actually gave a reason for his lack of vote, and you just handwaved it. I get that you don't like people doing reaction tests, but he backed himself up with it pretty well, and it got us out of RVS so I feel like you're just looking at Orion's action in a vacuum, rather considering that it's had a pretty positive impact on the game.

Difference here is distinguishing between my reasoning when I made the post I was quoting and when I made the post you quoted. I was explaining my reasoning behind my original post at which point Orion had not explained his reasons for a lack of a vote. As for the positive impact, sure, there's been some good from it. Note that I'm not voting him solely for the reaction test anymore. I found him scummy for what he's done, and the things he has done have done little to change my opinion of him because he's given me no reason to view him as town.

1) 'Could' =/= 'Should' , and 'could' was very much implied in their post. Also, just because someone suggests something which is not popular among players does not mean they're scum.

2) I'll give you this point; even though I think one's definition of lousy would be different; Orion has now replied saying they didn't make any assumption about Resolute's role, which I think you may have missed. Thoughts on that?(its post ##76)

3) That's actually a misrep on your part; If a miller got lynched and Orion wasn't on it it'd first be dumbtown's fault; second they'd look misreable if they weren't part of the players voting for the Miller, and that'd be bad for them as scum. From your point three I'm assuming you mean people will lynch Resolute solely for being miller. Don't you think this scenario is exaggerated?

And finally I interpreted your post where you voted Orion as a bit too aggressive even if you disliked his actions. Perhpaps "omg you're scummy as fuck" would be an exaggeration on my part, but I did sense a tone of aggression in your post, which I consider unusual early on in the game.

1) You read could, I read should.

2) I point you to my above point where I said that I was defending my post at that point in time since you were attacking that post.

3) That was the suggestion. That Resolute should give a reason for why we shouldn't lynch him for his role. So yes, I was working off that scenario since that was the one suggested by the person I'm attacking. Unsure which word you're trying to have in place of "misreable" but either way, you have my point in there. If Orion prodded a bandwagon into starting without actually hopping onto it himself, it would look like town's fault. So he could get a mislynch and escape with very little of the blame. So no, I don't think exaggeration is the right word to describe my post at all.

As for the last bit, why shouldn't I be aggressive? Will being passive find us town? Yes I was being aggressive. I wanted to get a response to my vote on someone I found scummy. Passively placing a vote down with little to no reasoning backing it up doesn't put the pressure on needed to get a reaction (look at Kuman's vote on me if you want an example of that).

dammit Manix, now I need to find someone else to RP

[Marisa Kirisame]

@Javert: Mind adding actual quotes that you're responding to?