NFL 2013-2014 Season!

[Lord Raven]

Just because I can name five players better doesn't make him not a franchise. It's the fact that if I were to suddenly dethrone Ozzie Newsome/John Harbaugh and become the GM/HC of the Ravens, I would feel comfortable knowing I don't at all need to go out and find a replacement QB ever, because Flacco will do everything I will need him to do as a GM. I don't care if any of the Top 5 I've listed up there are in FA nor do I care if any of the freak rookies are in FA, I would not go after them at all. That's what the mentality is behind a franchise player.

And it's hard as fuck to be a Top 5 QB in this era. It's hard to make an accurate Top 10 list after Brady/Brees/Rodgers/Peyton, because it's always up in the air between Stafford/Ryan/Flacco/Romo/Eli/RG3/Wilson/Luck/Kaepernick/Newton/Roethlisberger/Rivers (with Dalton, Schaub, Palmer and Smith as serviceable starters) in the modern NFL. The mentality is that if you have one of the Top 16 in the league, then you stick with him and don't bother with anyone else. It doesn't matter if even one of the other Top 16 goes into FA, you already have stability at the position so why bother? That's a franchise QB. Not one of these bullshit Top 5 lists that are meaningless outside of occasional interesting debate. It doesn't help that the QBs of today are so talented that it's always a "boom or bust" mentality with any new QB that enters the league regardless of any progress made. All #17 means is that you're not incredible.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Lord Raven

[Randa]

So if you had to completely rebuild a franchise Flacco would be your choice. I don't agree with that. I think we disagree on what a franchise quarterback is.

[Lord Raven]

I never said anything of the sort. I said I'd keep him, not I'd go out of my way to get him. Your definition of franchise is "elite", mine is "reliable and effective." Flacco is the latter.

Flacco is a huge emphasis on the Ravens' plans going forward. There wasn't any WR talent to be had or available (and the defense is crippled so we need to build that far before an offense), so obviously they couldn't do that much despite trading Boldin out of necessity. They kept the O-line intact outside of Birk however, they kept the RBs (Vonta Leach will be missed but won't be necessary going forward), the TEs he's grown an affinity to throwing to (they were RFAs mind you, but they decided to keep Pitta almost immediately), they kept many of his other receivers and they kept the coordinator that he has had a better rapport with over the years. Future draft and FA plans will revolve around getting Flacco what he needs to keep on going. On top of that, the names to associate with the modern day Ravens are: Joe Flacco, Haloti Ngata, Terrell Suggs and Ray Rice. That screams franchise player/quarterback to me, because he's one of the first people you will think of when you think of the Ravens, and he's not a player that will be leaving anytime soon.

EDIT: Marshall Yanda and Torrey Smith, too

EDIT 2: and he got rid of that unibrow and mustache

Edited July 17, 2013 by Lord Raven

[Helios]

I think you guys are being way to quick to judge ponder. He isn't an elite quarterback but he's the next tier down. He's basically a poor man's Flacco. He has about the same abilities and comes much cheaper. The difference between the two was the weapons around them. Ponder's first year he had nothing around him. Two years ago the defense had some secondary problems and his primary receiver didn't want to be there. Last year he showed potential, but with his best receiver being injured and the rest of the squad being less than amazing it was hard to expect much from them. And we can't forget the fact that AP had 348 carries last year. This means the sample size to base our judgement off of is rather small. Defenses will most likely do as the packers did in the wild card game and say screw the pass game just try to shut down Peterson. This means that they will face a lot of 4-3 looks with a linebacker either blitzing or one on Rudolph. This allows playmakers like Jennings and Patterson to have one on ones on the outside. We will still see a lot of AP running, but this will most likely be the year in which a balanced offense can show us what sort of a player ponder is.

Except no, Flacco and Ponder are completely different styles of QB. Ponder has arguably the weakest arm in the NFL, and relies on smarts and accuracy to make plays. Only his accuracy (though it's improved) still isn't that great. For him to be successful, he needs a playbook centered around possession receivers and short throws, and NEEDS a run game to open up the play action and those passes (hence why AP rushed so much last year). On the flip side, Flacco has a cannon for an arm, improving pocket presence, and a great deep ball touch. He obviously benefits from better weapons, but if Ponder was in the same situation as Flacco he wouldn't be as successful as Flacco is (but I don't think you're trying to say that Ponder is as good as Flacco). Like I said before though, Ponder needs to step up this year. He has better weapons now, and he's in his third year as a QB in the NFL. It's make or break.

Flacco's definitely not a franchise QB. He's ranked lower than Big Ben on the most recent QB ranking list and Ben is near the middle. I read this in a magazine. I think Aaron Rodgers was number 1 followed by Pey-Pey and uh... Dang it, I forget who was next. Pey-Pey should be number 1 though, if you ask me. This guy is a beast!

(Pey-Pey is Eli's nickname for Peyton, btw. I find it so cute! XD)

I think Ben is number 12 or something while Flacco is a couple places down from him. But imo, Ben ought to be a little higher, perhaps number 8. He might not be real fast, but this guy can take a ton of hits and keep playing. He's named the toughest QB in the league and has a cannon for an arm.

Just because Flacco isn't at Big Ben's level yet doesn't mean that he's not a franchise QB. Flacco's a franchise QB. Ben's practically an elite (if not an elite) QB in the league and has 2 rings. I'll respond to the rest of this later cuz I'm heading out.

[Randa]

Ponder's stats.

CMP ATT YDS CMP% AVG TD LNG INT FUM QBR RAT

300 483 2,935 62.1 6.08 18 65 12 7 53.8 81.2

Flacco's stat

CMP ATT YDS CMP% AVG TD LNG INT FUM QBR RAT

317 531 3,817 59.7 7.19 22 61 10 9 46.8 87.7

You would actually be surprised with how the two match up when put right next to each other. On fifty more attempts Flacco had 17 more completions and 900 more yards. The yards can be consider based on the weapons or the play book. The one stat that jumps out at me is the touchdown to interception ratio. 18:12 and 22:10. Neither is high but ponders is pretty bad. But given the weapons and inexperience I can accept it. Flacco averages a yard more per play. Flacco fumbled more but that is pretty pointless. The major thing i want to point is that the long for ponder who has a weaker arm has a longer touchdown. The biggest that jumps out at me with Flacco is the completion percentage. For comparison it ranks 19th in the league quarterbacks. Ponder is 13th. To validate the above point of arm strength. Ponder ranks 31st in y/a. Flacco is 13th. They seem pretty even with the exception of y/a.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Randa

[Anacybele]

Whoa, whoa, simmer down there, Lord Raven. I never said Flacco wasn't YOUR franchise QB. Certainly he's the best the Ravens have had in awhile. The Steelers also have a similar situation. Ben is the best they've had since Bradshaw back in the seventies. But Flacco doesn't come anywhere near people like Rodgers, Pey-Pey, Brady, or Brees.

Also, I disagree that Flacco performed better than Ben last season just because Ben got hurt and he didn't. Ben getting hurt wasn't his fault. If we should compare them, we need to ignore the games Ben missed and look at his performances in the games that he DID play in. But I'm not going to get into such a debate with you, because it would be pointless and endless. We're both a little biased against our teams and starting QBs. We'd never come to an agreement. xP

Edited July 17, 2013 by Anacybele

[Lord Raven]

The bulk stats don't tell nearly everything (I am not going into it now). The weight of the world was against our offense, which is why the numbers seem low and are often misleading. He played some absolutely monster games in the regular season (go watch the Cowboys, Redskins, Patriots, Eagles, Bengals, Giants and the Raiders games to get a feel for what I'm talking about - and yes, not all of these were wins). Ponder hasn't had any of those monster games.

Whoa, whoa, simmer down there, Lord Raven. I never said Flacco wasn't YOUR franchise QB. Certainly he's the best the Ravens have had in awhile. The Steelers also have a similar situation. Ben is the best they've had since Bradshaw back in the seventies. But Flacco doesn't come anywhere near people like Rodgers, Pey-Pey, Brady, or Brees.

Best Ravens have had ever* Steve McNair didn't count because he was there for 1.5 seasons. Steelers also weren't used to years and years of failure in terms of QBs, either, considering they actually hit the Super Bowl twice since then.

You're right, he doesn't come to their level. But the point is that you said he's not a franchise quarterback. But he is, because he is the Ravens franchise quarterback.

Also, I disagree that Flacco performed better than Ben last season just because Ben got hurt and he didn't. Ben getting hurt wasn't his fault. If we should compare them, we need to ignore the games Ben missed and look at his performances in the games that he DID play in. But I'm not going to get into such a debate with you, because it would be pointless and endless. We're both a little biased against our teams and starting QBs. We'd never come to an agreement. xP

If you can't play consistently then it's really hard to shoe you in for a consistently better if you evaluate an entire season. Amendola and Gronk are players that may not have had great seasons (well maybe Gronk cause he was around for like 10 games) but are definitely very good players. It doesn't matter if it's his fault or not (although he does hold on to the ball too long), a player who is not healthy cannot play or contribute and cannot have a good season as a result. Nobody is calling Manning one of the best QBs of 2011 despite the injury not being his fault!

Edited July 17, 2013 by Lord Raven

[Randa]

I am still protesting the pats game. That was wide left.

[Lord Raven]

Yeah go put up the picket signs and tell the nfl to revoke our 4-seed and make us a 6-seed while making NE the 1-seed and whatever else and tell us to replay the entire playoffs, tell me how that goes

My opinion: the refs, as bad as they were, were looking upwards and clearly saw it. We have nothing else to base it off of and the cameras didn't give us a good view of whether or not it went in. I'm not complaining, at any rate, because there were so many dumb calls in that game.

[Randa]

That was an awful game. Still better than most early season games.

[Anacybele]

Uh, the difference between Ben and Pey-Pey is that the latter didn't play AT ALL in 2011, whereas Ben only missed out on a few games when he was hurt.

And if you guys want a truly shitty call, try the last play of Packers vs Seahawks from last year. That shit was clearly an INTERCEPTION and Green Bay should've had the win. There was no way it was a Seahawks TD.

[Phoenix Wright]

Uh, the difference between Ben and Pey-Pey is that the latter didn't play AT ALL in 2011, whereas Ben only missed out on a few games when he was hurt.

And if you guys want a truly shitty call, try the last play of Packers vs Seahawks from last year. That shit was clearly an INTERCEPTION and Green Bay should've had the win. There was no way it was a Seahawks TD.

That game sucked because of the refs. It was almost as disappointing as the previous Superbowl (I will argue 'till the end of time that that should have been a Niners victory).

[Lord Raven]

lmao 49ers didn't deserve that victory, were we watching the same Super Bowl? Are you talking about that whole Jimmy Smith/Crabtree nonsense? That ball was not catchable, it's not pass interference if you can't catch the ball. It went pretty decent out of bounds. Niners were to some extent bailed out by the power outage, a bunch of dropped passes that should not have been, a Ray Rice fumble, and many other luck factors that went in favor in the second half, so don't go pulling any "what ifs." Kaepernick and the 49ers defense played like shit in the first half and they couldn't pull through till the end. That game was fierce btw, I enjoyed watching it despite the ending.

Fail Mary could go either way, I think it's been argued to hell and back it goes both ways. My issue was the OPI (Golden Tate pushed a guy to jump up and catch the ball), because it was simultaneous possession as it was going down. Outside of the OPI it's in favor of either side.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Lord Raven

[Randa]

I still can't tell who had the ball . But when was the last time a ref called OPI especially on the last play.

[Phoenix Wright]

lmao 49ers didn't deserve that victory, were we watching the same Super Bowl? Are you talking about that whole Jimmy Smith/Crabtree nonsense? That ball was not catchable, it's not pass interference if you can't catch the ball. It went pretty decent out of bounds. Niners were to some extent bailed out by the power outage, a bunch of dropped passes that should not have been, a Ray Rice fumble, and many other luck factors that went in favor in the second half, so don't go pulling any "what ifs." Kaepernick and the 49ers defense played like shit in the first half and they couldn't pull through till the end. That game was fierce btw, I enjoyed watching it despite the ending.

He could have caught that, I think. But that drive was the problem to me, not that particular play in the drive.

When they got to 1st and goal with Gore, they should have finished with Gore. He could've done it. I don't want Kaep to roll out and pass, run in, or do anything but hand the ball to Gore.

Also, I don't like Kaep. Reminds me of my quarterback when I was playing (I also happen to not enjoy him very much either).

The first half was disappointing in that the Niners played like shit, the second half was disappointing in that the Niners didn't win. I'd agree that the game was pretty fierce though, after the outage.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Phoenix Wright

[Lord Raven]

Mutual holding could've easily gone in favor of both of them. At worst it was canceling penalties, and at the very worst - you've seen what the Ravens can do with around 2 minutes left. Flacco is *very* good at the two minute drill especially with a few timeouts. As easily as you can blame the final drive we can blame random drops and fumbles on our offense too

It was an entertaining Super Bowl in the second half and kept Ravens tradition alive by giving me something close to a heart attack

Edited July 18, 2013 by Lord Raven

[Helios]

Just because I can name five players better doesn't make him not a franchise. It's the fact that if I were to suddenly dethrone Ozzie Newsome/John Harbaugh and become the GM/HC of the Ravens, I would feel comfortable knowing I don't at all need to go out and find a replacement QB ever, because Flacco will do everything I will need him to do as a GM. I don't care if any of the Top 5 I've listed up there are in FA nor do I care if any of the freak rookies are in FA, I would not go after them at all. That's what the mentality is behind a franchise player.

And it's hard as fuck to be a Top 5 QB in this era. It's hard to make an accurate Top 10 list after Brady/Brees/Rodgers/Peyton, because it's always up in the air between Stafford/Ryan/Flacco/Romo/Eli/RG3/Wilson/Luck/Kaepernick/Newton/Roethlisberger/Rivers (with Dalton, Schaub, Palmer and Smith as serviceable starters) in the modern NFL. The mentality is that if you have one of the Top 16 in the league, then you stick with him and don't bother with anyone else. It doesn't matter if even one of the other Top 16 goes into FA, you already have stability at the position so why bother? That's a franchise QB. Not one of these bullshit Top 5 lists that are meaningless outside of occasional interesting debate. It doesn't help that the QBs of today are so talented that it's always a "boom or bust" mentality with any new QB that enters the league regardless of any progress made. All #17 means is that you're not incredible.

This is the best way to put it. A franchise QB doesn't need to be an elite QB, he just needs to be a solid QB that can let you feel comfortable at the position for years to come. Flacco, Ryan, Stafford, Cam Newton, and the rookie phenoms from this year fit in that category despite not being elite.

Brady and Peyton are first ballot Hall of Famers, and Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees are two of the better QBs in NFL history. Even guys like Big Ben and Eli, who've won two rings, aren't even in their category.

Ponder's stats.

CMP ATT YDS CMP% AVG TD LNG INT FUM QBR RAT

300 483 2,935 62.1 6.08 18 65 12 7 53.8 81.2

Flacco's stat

CMP ATT YDS CMP% AVG TD LNG INT FUM QBR RAT

317 531 3,817 59.7 7.19 22 61 10 9 46.8 87.7

You would actually be surprised with how the two match up when put right next to each other. On fifty more attempts Flacco had 17 more completions and 900 more yards. The yards can be consider based on the weapons or the play book. The one stat that jumps out at me is the touchdown to interception ratio. 18:12 and 22:10. Neither is high but ponders is pretty bad. But given the weapons and inexperience I can accept it. Flacco averages a yard more per play. Flacco fumbled more but that is pretty pointless. The major thing i want to point is that the long for ponder who has a weaker arm has a longer touchdown. The biggest that jumps out at me with Flacco is the completion percentage. For comparison it ranks 19th in the league quarterbacks. Ponder is 13th. To validate the above point of arm strength. Ponder ranks 31st in y/a. Flacco is 13th. They seem pretty even with the exception of y/a.

Well I said they were different STYLES of QB, but you're right about the similar production. They play in different types of offenses though like I said before (Ponder relies on AP's running game for the play action to open up and short passes, whereas Flacco throws intermediate passes until the bomb to Torrey Smith opens up). Flacco's hype comes from his ELITE postseason numbers this year (15-1 TD:Interception ratio). Also, wrt to Ponder's longer TD throw, that was a post route to Jarius Wright that was a good throw, but not 65 yards. Half those yards came after Wright had actually caught the ball. Now think of guys like Flacco who seriously can throw the ball 60+ yards (think of the postseason game against the Broncos). If you look online, most of the experts will agree that Ponder has a weak arm.

TL;DR: Stats are great, but they're not the whole story. Watch some of the games and it'll help your opinions on players.

And if you guys want a truly shitty call, try the last play of Packers vs Seahawks from last year. That shit was clearly an INTERCEPTION and Green Bay should've had the win. There was no way it was a Seahawks TD.

Oh man that play...I couldn't stop laughing when they called it a touchdown. Twitter was especially hilarious that night.

He could have caught that, I think. But that drive was the problem to me, not that particular play in the drive.

When they got to 1st and goal with Gore, they should have finished with Gore. He could've done it. I don't want Kaep to roll out and pass, run in, or do anything but hand the ball to Gore.

Also, I don't like Kaep. Reminds me of my quarterback when I was playing (I also happen to not enjoy him very much either).

The first half was disappointing in that the Niners played like shit, the second half was disappointing in that the Niners didn't win. I'd agree that the game was pretty fierce though, after the outage.

I actually like Kaepernick, but you're right that they should have finished with Gore. I was thinking the same thing at the time. I think that if Kaepernick improves his accuracy (because he definitely has the arm) and decision making, he'll be an elite QB with that speed.

[Lord Raven]

Here's an interesting question; out of the 4 starters that emerged gracefully this year, who would you rather take? Wilson, Kaepernick, Luck, or RG3?

I'd take Wilson, I'll expand on this later.

[Phoenix Wright]

Definitely Luck. Been a fan of him since the Stanford days.

[Helios]

I'd go with Luck too. He might not be as fast as the other three, but he's the most surefire out of the 4 with the potential to be the next Peyton Manning. He's got arm strength, accuracy, footwork, pocket presence and some underrated athleticism. RGIII, as much as I love him, is a huge risk because of his play style. Same with Kaepernick. Wilson is improving but I think Luck's ceiling is higher than his.

[Lord Raven]

My thing about Wilson is just some of the stuff he does with his feet is mind-blowing. Many instances of him just waltzing around behind the LOS and avoiding getting tackled and waiting on a receiver to get open. He works hard as hell too and he's smart as hell. Wilson just barely won out over Luck in my head though just because we have the workings of a Peyton Manning - except he's a miracle in the works (his name is fairly symbolic in my honest opinion) on top of being a dangerous QB. But both of them will be as dominant as Brady/Manning when the time comes and RG3 will be in there too.

[Randa]

Luck. Wilson is an interesting guy who has huge potential and will be a very good quarterback going forward, but I think luck's ceiling is higher. I could see him being the last great gunslinger. RG3 scares me because of what happened to the last electrifying QB in Washington and he's had acl surgery twice. I don't know how long he can last at this rate.

[Lord Raven]

To be fair, some of his injury was because he was tackled by Haloti Ngata

You do not want to be tackled by Haloti Ngata

[Helios]

I'd be happy if my team had any of those 4 guys. I'm content with Stafford as our franchise QB though. He's got the arm and leadership qualities a team like the Lions need to get back into the playoffs.

I started a fantasy football thread (so we don't derail this one) so if you wanna play or talk fantasy, please post in there.

[Anacybele]

RG3, no question. He totally rocks! The best rookie QB I'd ever seen. o.o