Thoughts on Rightful King?

[Nobody]

25 skill requires Chrom and Avatar to have gained around 36 skill between then. That's around 70 levels total, probably about 40 for Avatar and 30 for Chrom (Veteran). How is that entirely reasonable while Galeforce to Morgan (requiring about 40 levels to Avatar) is unthinkable? Even if you aren't passing down Galeforce, you aren't passing down Ignis. Morgan starts as a Tactician and can promote to get it pretty quickly, passing it down is kind of a waste.

Either way, your conclusion isn't following from the premise. Firstly Ignis is pretty meh at a low level. Even assuming your numbers are right, Ignis is going to be adding about... 6-7 damage for a base Morgan (est. 13-14 magic for the amount of levelling you implied). If you're using magic it's more like 9 extra damage (18 strength), but that's still very unimpressive. It's sometimes going to be enough to get kills sure, but often it won't make a difference, since you would have killed anyway, or you won't kill still as a result. And RfK is effectively working as 40% of that. Adding 10% sounds nice, but it's adding 10% to something that doesn't do much. And that's the big issue, you can't just say "10% extra is pretty good" when it's 10% of not much. Later on, Ignis gets better, but as it does, activation rate goes up, making RfK's contribution to the rate become less and less notable, while better skills become available to replace it.

I didn't realize that they needed that much skill to give morgan 25. My point is even more valid then, since his skill will be actually lower.

And as you said, getting a activation skill on morgan doesn't take a lot of time, so even if you pass galeforce, RFK will be useful. Also, I always make morgan a hero, with 30% activation sol, he will be a great tank, being able to handle many enemies at once. It's not RFK fault that ignis suck.

Edited July 10, 2013 by Nobody

[XeKr]

Basically yeah, statistically the effects are small. Where Rightful King has the most effect, activation rates are low and inherently unreliable. For higher activation rates, it has diminishing returns and matters less and less.

But because of circumstance, it does tend to help out (as Morgan will likely pick up some proc skills, whether Ignis/Sol/Luna/Vengeance/Armsthrift).

Probably overhyped, but it's a nice small boost to reliability. And there are niche Streetpass uses.

[Mighty Kamina]

Rightful King is alright in the main game, and is useful for a Pavise + Aegis Lucina or just for Chrom in general, but there are a lot better skills for postgame.

[Airship Canon]

Solid filler skill. Enough said.

Quantified:

40 Skl if paired with Lethality

20 Skl if paired with Aether/Astra

10 Skl if paired with Ignis/Luna/Sol/Pavise/Aegis

5 Skl if paired with Vengeance

10 Lck if paired with Miracle

5 Lck if paired with Armsthrift

Its best use is with 2 or more Activations.

[BlueFire]

RfK is useful in the maingame and StreetPass which the OP didn't list. Maingame you don't have more reliable activation rates in the first place. In StreetPass, Lethality Lucina and Inigo love RfK.

edit: fixed - thanks, Airship

Edited July 11, 2013 by BlueFire

[Airship Canon]

RfK is useful in the maingame and StreetPass which the OP didn't list. Maingame you don't have more reliable activation rates in the first place. In StreetPass, Lethality Lucina and Owain love RfK.

Ummm.... I think you mean Inigo there.

[Meteor]

main game: great especially on Chrom/Lucina. it's not like you are starved for skill slots.

post game: bland because there are stronger, more reliable, more accessible skills out there. Probably still useful for non-Avatar!Lucina builds.

[HK Motendra]

All i'm going to say is, skills like Astra and Aether's activation rate is skill/2 (and Lethality's being skill/4) and with Rightful King, some of that fraction of skill is restored. Also, if you happen to have a brave weapon equipped, the chance of activation raises even more, to the point where, you'll almost always activate any attack skill (with the latter skills named, not having a near absolute activation, but still potent)

[HeoandReo]

It's not a great skill in the long run, but it's pretty cool for some niche builds; Rightful King Longbow Lethality, Tanky Sumia!Lucina with Pavise/Aegis/Aether/RK, Miracle trolling with Brady/Lucina/Morgan, etc. It's nice that most of the characters who get it usually get enough to really abuse it with.

Edited July 11, 2013 by HeoandReo

[dondon151]

15% Sol? Which characters exactly are getting Sol, Rightful King and only 15 skill? Even then, I disagree with that being very nice. 15% Sol is not very good. 10% extra Sol is worse than not very good by a margin of 33%. That's... entirely unimpressive. It's something, but I'd prefer most things in it's place there. And when you take a more reasonable skill, say, 25 skill, it's 40% of your Sol activation rate. Uhh, yeah.

it's really all about how you spin the numbers.

say that RK brings you from a 90% activation rate to a 100% activation rate. you're infinitely less likely to not activate the skill!

[Tables]

it's really all about how you spin the numbers.

say that RK brings you from a 90% activation rate to a 100% activation rate. you're infinitely less likely to not activate the skill!

Which is still barely better than a 90% activation rate. You can twist numbers, but it won't change facts.

[Bronnichiwa]

I have RK on a Morgan with Pavise and Ignis.

It doesn't make a difference usually, but on Apotheosis it's really noticeable. It really helps in those situations where Nosferatanking might not be enough if Sorcerer!Morgan accrues damage too quickly.

[HK Motendra]

I have RK on a Morgan with Pavise and Ignis.

It doesn't make a difference usually, but on Apotheosis it's really noticeable. It really helps in those situations where Nosferatanking might not be enough if Sorcerer!Morgan accrues damage too quickly.

If your Nosferatanking, it'd be best to have vengeance to regain all that health you lost, while killing your opponent at the same time (though Aversa's Night would be more effective)

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

main game: great especially on Chrom/Lucina. it's not like you are starved for skill slots.

From my experience with this game, I don't actually get Rightful King in a span of 5 PT, 3 of which used Chrom as a main unit in a long term

[Bronnichiwa]

If your Nosferatanking, it'd be best to have vengeance to regain all that health you lost, while killing your opponent at the same time (though Aversa's Night would be more effective)

He does have Vengeance, and a forged Aversa's night. The Pavise/RK combo is just to help mitigate damage on the first place so he doesn't die in a few turns.

[Interceptor]

Which is still barely better than a 90% activation rate. You can twist numbers, but it won't change facts.

I wouldn't say "barely better". If we're talking about Armsthrift here, that's the difference between 200 uses of a 20-use weapon before breakage, and literally infinite uses. Makes a difference if you dunked 20k gold on a forge.

[Tables]

I wouldn't say "barely better". If we're talking about Armsthrift here, that's the difference between 200 uses of a 20-use weapon before breakage, and literally infinite uses. Makes a difference if you dunked 20k gold on a forge.

200 uses is enough time to last dozens of maps. 20K is about one minute of Golden Gaffe (and before you say no DLC, when and why are you getting 45 luck and then doing 10 more maps otherwise?). Useful skill slot, or 1 minute per 15-20 maps?

[Interceptor]

200 uses is enough time to last dozens of maps.

Infinite uses is enough to last infinity maps. Rightful King also works on the lead-up. For example, it's the difference between 200 vs. 100 uses at the same level of LCK.

Being able to use a powerful forge without worrying about having to replace it, allows you to be more aggressive with expenditures. It's not a point up to dispute.

20K is about one minute of Golden Gaffe (and before you say no DLC, when and why are you getting 45 luck and then doing 10 more maps otherwise?). Useful skill slot, or 1 minute per 15-20 maps?

You can't assume buyable DLC in a complete analysis of the skill, since it won't always be available. Also, LCK comes from more than just bases; for example, Morgan can reasonably be assumed to get around +7-8 from a Pair-up with his father, and securing a Rally LCK bot for him is about as difficult as falling out of bed. It's not that hard to have Morgan rocking base LCK in the 20's by the end of his joining chapter.

But since you're arguing in the weeds now, I assume you're conceding the basic point. Rightful King does make a difference here, especially since Sol is coming too.

Edited July 11, 2013 by Interceptor

[Tables]

That... was one of the least well written arguments I've ever seen you make, Interceptor. I'm kind of disappointed.

Infinite uses is enough to last infinity maps. Rightful King also works on the lead-up. For example, it's the difference between 200 vs. 100 uses at the same level of LCK.

Being able to use a powerful forge without worrying about having to replace it, allows you to be more aggressive with expenditures. It's not a point up to dispute.

You seem to have missed the basic point. Infinite maps means nothing. Nobody is intending to play infinite maps. 90% armsthrift activations are obviously less useful than 100%, but it's not a significant difference. It means replacing forges every 15-20 maps, which is pretty insignificant. And that assumes you're even using forges that regularly - I know I hardly need to on my Lunatic file, because everything dies just fine to unforged weapons.

You can't assume buyable DLC in a complete analysis of the skill, since it won't always be available. Also, LCK comes from more than just bases; for example, Morgan can reasonably be assumed to get around +7-8 from a Pair-up with his father, and securing a Rally LCK bot for him is about as difficult as falling out of bed. It's not that hard to have Morgan rocking base LCK in the 20's by the end of his joining chapter.

You seem to have completely changed the argument, to the point I don't know what you're talking about any more. You said 100% Armsthrift is much better than 90%. I said 90% armsthrift from 45 luck is almost as good. You're now talking about why one specific character getting past that luck isn't difficult? That seems more like an argument in favour of RK being not useful here.

But since you're arguing in the weeds now

Irony.

I assume you're conceding the basic point.

I could say the same to you, given that you've done far more of that, but I won't, since such an argument would be insulting and invalid.

Rightful King does make a difference here, especially since Sol is coming too.

A difference? Well obviously. A big difference? Not at all.

[PuffPuff]

What's the problem with Armsthrift/Sol, exactly? Morgan as a child of Chrom/Avatar is going to get Rightful King, whatever Avatar passes down, and start as a Tactician with C Sword/Tome rank. Reclass into a Mercenary, and Veteran kills give you a level per kill until like 7-8 or something. Once you are ready to promote (i.e., not necessarily at level 20, since if Chrom is trained he'll be capping stats before that), become a Hero and get Sol within 4 levels.

Bang. +10% Sol activation, and effectively +5 LCK worth of oomph for Armsthrift. Morgan is a self-healing monster that can use expensive forges or strong legendaries without smashing them. Undeniably Rightful King makes this better.

I never knew that Rightful King could stack with Armsthrift.

And MU/Lucina/Morgan/spotpass/dlc characters are the best units in the game. They all can get Veteran and can get any skill (except Lucina) in the game.

Edited July 11, 2013 by 綾波

[Interceptor]

That... was one of the least well written arguments I've ever seen you make, Interceptor. I'm kind of disappointed.

Consider the possibility that it's because this is not an important topic that's worth spending effort on. You asked if there were real uses for Rightful King. There are.

You seem to have missed the basic point.

Rather, I think that you missed the point. There are plenty of considerations when it comes to Armsthrift. For example, we're not easily "replacing" a legendary weapon that broke. Also, forges are only overkill in the situation where the only thing we're measuring is a ORKO against vanilla stats: what about the benefits of a OHKO (such as for effective mt weapons), or as an answer to Counter/Pavise+/Aegis+? Naturally, this doesn't even get into what will happen with Sol, a frequent partner here.

You're now talking about why one specific character getting past that luck isn't difficult? That seems more like an argument in favour of RK being not useful here.

There are only four units at most who are even going to have this skill in any given playthrough, three realistically, so a specific example isn't really something hilariously inappropriate here. RK is helpful in this situation because we're pretty much always wanting Armsthrift to activate more often, but avenues for that are limited.

A difference? Well obviously. A big difference? Not at all.

Semantics, the last refuge. Is this now a debate on your personal definition of what constitutes a "big" difference? We're doing no better than a LOLwen vanity thread at that point.

[j00]

Considering you'd rather want Charm or DS+ instead of RK it seems like you think they'd do better as a supportbot. I'm not sure what kind of playstyle you're arguing for here.

I at least don't consider Rightful King less useful than Charm. Even if 5+ hit/avoid is a "subtle" difference, 10%+ skill proc is a lot more useful the time you'd get any of Chrom's sons, and as other has argued, in the maingame, if you have skill at around 25 going from 1/4 proc to 1/3 is not something to scoff at. Sure, it gets less useful later and there will be better skills to replace them, but the same can be said for Charm and DS+.

For postgame and other stuff it's generally not that useful, but as you said, there are clever set-ups for people who wants to use it, like Lethality + RK in spotpass and so on.

It's for more niche purposes at this point, but since you're saying you'd rather want Charm and DS+, can you explain what makes them more useful than RK, and in what kind of play? DS+ is also adding a 10% to a proc, and the same arguments for it being useful for low numbers and diminishing returns can be made here, and for Spotpass builds DS+ is completely useless.

I do agree that I'd rather have Aether though.

[dondon151]

Which is still barely better than a 90% activation rate. You can twist numbers, but it won't change facts.

no, maybe you didn't read my post. it is infinitely better if you compare the failure rates.

[Tables]

no, maybe you didn't read my post. it is infinitely better if you compare the failure rates.

Maybe you didn't read mine. Infinitely less likely to fail =/= infinitely better. It doesn't mean anything.

[Interceptor]

Considering you'd rather want Charm or DS+ instead of RK it seems like you think they'd do better as a supportbot. I'm not sure what kind of playstyle you're arguing for here.

The basic hilarity here is that Chrom is usually a really good support bot for his son, which ends up giving you Charm and DS+ (both skills that work from the Support slot) on that unit pairing anyway. Everything else other than Aether is going to be available on the son's reclass options, and while Aether is pretty good, it's also pretty inconsistent without Rightful King access.