Dragon Apocalypse How?

[Jotari]

Okay I've just finished FE7 and the ending has left me a little confused. Why are the dragons coming from the other side of the gate such a big problem? These are the refugee dragons who didn't want to fight the humans during the Scouring. They're the peaceful bunch who managed to get along with the humans on the other side of the gate. Ninian and Nils say life is fine over there. Why would they suddenly want to destroy everyone in Elbe? Beyond that how would they be able to bring about the end of the world? Nils says the air is different where they come from and that Ninian won't last long staying with Eliwood. Surely the same holds true for the other dragons coming through the gate. Wouldn't they expend all their energy rather quickly taking huge dragon forms and attacking people?

Even if these dragons were hostile and able to live in the world, which I don't see why they would be, why would it be such a huge threat anyway? Granted a second scouring would be a horrible event but Athos says the world will be in ashes in a month. I don't know if anyone ever told him but the humans did a really good job of fighting the dragons the first time round even without the legendary weapons. The dragons were loosing the war before they resorted to cloning (a secret weapon these dragons wouldn't have). Things would be bad but the world wouldn't end in a month.

Did I miss some kind of plot point that indicates these dragons are different in someway? Ninian said they were the same as her at the end. I know having a dragon fits a little better as a final boss than a wizard but I don't see why the dragons should be hostile given their background or why it is treated as such a hugely big deal. Nergal wanted to steal the dragon's quintessence to get more powerful which makes much more sense as a threat so the dragon apocalypse was never really what anyone was trying to achieve yet for some reason it's treated as the end of humanity should it come to pass. Can't help but make me think the dragons were just stopping by to say hello and grab their two children before old genocidal maniacs Athos and Bramimond started shooting magic at them and convincing everyone they were evil.

Am I missing things or overreacting to this in some way?

Edited July 30, 2013 by Jotari

[VincentASM]

I'm just guessing here, but I figured mankind became complacent a thousand years after the Scouring and wouldn't be properly equipped to battle dragons.

When the Scouring broken out, man and dragons lived together, so man knew dragons existed and how to deal with them.

As for the fire dragons, I think they were vengeful dragons that existed during the Scouring. I don't have the scrolling text to reference what Ninian and Nils said, in case they contradict my idea. I do know in the Japanese version, the Fire Dragon is called "Ancient Fire Dragon".

[Jotari]

I'm just guessing here, but I figured mankind became complacent a thousand years after the Scouring and wouldn't be properly equipped to battle dragons.

When the Scouring broken out, man and dragons lived together, so man knew dragons existed and how to deal with them.

As for the fire dragons, I think they were vengeful dragons that existed during the Scouring. I don't have the scrolling text to reference what Ninian and Nils said, in case they contradict my idea. I do know in the Japanese version, the Fire Dragon is called "Ancient Fire Dragon".

Well if they were vengeful dragons then how many of them where there? Was it just those three (or four I suppose, one dies half way through the game during the first opening)? If so they would have caused quite a bit of damage but nothing world ending. Was it most of the dragon species? If so what turned them from pacifists to vengeful warriors in the intervening years? They apparently got along well enough with the humans on the other side. Were Nils and Ninian the only good dragons on the other side of the gate? It's treated as such a huge deal that dragons crossing over are bad when the two that actually did cross over are pretty nice people.

[Irysa]

Nils:

…… OK, I'll tell you. I want you all to know about me and Ninian. A millenium ago… Man chased dragonkind from the land, exiled us. We had no place to go… not on this world. So we used the Dragon's Gate to flee into another world. When we passed through this chasm in space and time, many of us were lost. Still, we endured the journey. We found humans there, too, but they were few in number. We had a few skirmishes, but at last, we found a home. We were stable there, happy, even. But some thought back on our former home, and when we did, his voice reached out to us. Ninian was a medium in the other world, an oracle of sorts. She sat at the Dragon Shrine. She held much power. We were in prayer at the shrine when it happened… We heard a voice calling to us from the Dragon's Gate. It was the voice of an old friend…… We knew we weren't supposed to open the gate and return to this world. We had no idea that the owner of that voice was Nergal…

"A few skirmishes" with "few in number" humans doesn't really sound like coexistance so much as either those humans got wiped out, or else fled and didn't bother the dragons again. I don't really see the world beyond Dragon's Gate being implied to be Arcadia all over again.

Also, bear in mind that Ninian and Nils are half dragon, which probably means they have less abhorrence to humans in general. Jahn from Binding Blade, another surviving Fire Dragon seemed to holds humans with a great deal of disdain, regardless of working with Bern or not.

Also, whilst it's true that Manakete don't have the strength to maintain Dragon form at all time in Elibe, bear in mind that Ninian and Nils had their quintessence drained and that is stated to be the main reason why they had to take human form.

Nils:

But something unexpected happened. When we opened the Dragon's Gate and traveled here again, we had lost almost all of our strength… The quintessence left within us was less even than that of an average human. In order to sustain ourselves, in order to breathe the air of this world, we took human form. We placed our energies within a dragonstone. But our dragonstone was taken…stolen. Nergal hoped to use it as a tool to summon other dragons. …Until we escaped. We couldn't let our foolishness condemn our friends. Disguised as a dancer and a bard, we fled and wandered from country to country. That's when we first met Lady Lyndis, one year ago.

However....

Jahn:

"When the order of nature collapsed, we Dragons took a fatal blow. The forces of nature weakened, and it became difficult for us to retain our original Dragon form. Therefore, we decided to seal our powers in gemstones and take human form instead."

Roy:

"Those must be the Dragon Stones..."

Jahn:

"Yes. We were rendered utterly powerless against the humans. We were just as weak, no, even weaker than the humans in their pathetic form. The humans took advantage of our handicap and started attacking the Dragons that had taken human form."

Roy:

"Why did you choose the human form?"

Jahn:

"In the new order of nature, the human was the form that required the least amount of energy to transform into. The Eight Heroes mercilessly crushed us, helpless in our human form. I, too, suffered a deep wound."

These seem to contradict each other a little, so maybe the Japanese text would be better suited here. Jahn implies that the Ending Winter's rebalance meant Dragons had problems maintaining form in Elibe, whilst Nils seems to imply that without their power being drained, they'd be fine. Ninian before Eliwood kills her seems to do fine in maintaining her form for a lengthly period of time. Perhaps the effects of The Ending Winter had lessened, much like the power of the legendary weapons? Jahn might have been incapable because of being crippled and slowly healing for thousands of years, and War Dragons/Manakete were obviously weaker. Wheras the Fire Dragons from beyond the Gate may have had plenty of power to wreck havoc on Elibe.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Irysa

[Jotari]

Bear in mind Yahn was not one of the pacifist dragons. He was among the dragons who took Idoun and destroyed her soul in order to keep fighting. It's entirely in character for him to be bitter and resentful of humans (even though he claims he's not but totally is). These are the dragons who didn't want to fight humans and would rather run away. For some reason they turned from pacifists to blood thirsty warmongers in the time gap. Maybe the new home they found wasn't nearly as nice as Elibe despite what Nils says.

In regards to the conflicting point about their ability to maintain form, Yhan's been in a temple for a thousand years and Nils has been in a different world (and at the time of the scouring he was an even younger child than he is now). One of them could easily be misinformed in some way. Yahn does say he has fully healed though so he sould have a reasonable idea of how long he can keep his form in the present day. How did Ninian manage to maintain dragon form so long with her quintessence stolen? Did Nergal give it back in order to open the door? Did she steal her stone back? I've only ever played it once and all I remember was Nergal basically mocking and provoking her until she transformed. If she didn't get her quintessence or dragonstone back than that point is weird either way.

[Paper Jam]

Ninian wasn't in dragon form for that long. From what I understand, it went something like this:

-Nergal captures Ninian

-Athos teleports Hector to Armads' Cavern, and Eliwood to Durandal's Cavern

-Ninian transforms into a dragon rather than submit to Nergal's will

-Hector and Eliwood defeat the guardians of Armads and Durandal

-Ninian, in dragon form, accosts Eliwood; Eliwood uses Durandal to attack her.

So unless you're suggesting that it took a long time to defeat the guardians of Armads and Durandal, it couldn't have taken very long for Ninian to reach Eliwood, and she didn't spend very much time in dragon form.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Paper Jam

[Jotari]

Wouldn't she have had to cross the sea to get there from the Dread Isle?

[Irysa]

Ninian would have had to fly halfway across the continent if I'm remembering correctly...thats pretty far, but probably not a "long time" for a creature like a Dragon, but that still has to be a reasonable amount of energy.

Bear in mind Yahn was not one of the pacifist dragons. He was among the dragons who took Idoun and destroyed her soul in order to keep fighting. It's entirely in character for him to be bitter and resentful of humans (even though he claims he's not but totally is). These are the dragons who didn't want to fight humans and would rather run away. For some reason they turned from pacifists to blood thirsty warmongers in the time gap. Maybe the new home they found wasn't nearly as nice as Elibe despite what Nils says.

In regards to the conflicting point about their ability to maintain form, Yhan's been in a temple for a thousand years and Nils has been in a different world (and at the time of the scouring he was an even younger child than he is now). One of them could easily be misinformed in some way. Yahn does say he has fully healed though so he sould have a reasonable idea of how long he can keep his form in the present day. How did Ninian manage to maintain dragon form so long with her quintessence stolen? Did Nergal give it back in order to open the door? Did she steal her stone back? I've only ever played it once and all I remember was Nergal basically mocking and provoking her until she transformed. If she didn't get her quintessence or dragonstone back than that point is weird either way.

I dont remember it anywhere saying that the dragons who fled were "pacifists". They ran because the humans were bloody well slaughtering them, only Arcadia seems to have peaceful dragon human relations. Read what Nils said again, they DID fight with humans past the gate. I still think the fact its merely a "few" with regards to humans and skirmishes makes it sound more in favour of dragons than not.

[VincentASM]

I figured Ninian could retain her form for so long because she was provoked into a berserk state, like the Archanean dragons. In Archnanea you could remain as a dragon at the cost of your mind.

Now that I think about it, maybe the three Fire Dragons were kind of like that too.