If FE4 was released internationally, what would be end of CH. 5's impact on gaming?

[Integrity]

I was asking about killing all the main characters.

Do you honestly think that's something that would have been aped had FE4 been localized? I don't. Like Nobody said, nobody (har har) aped FF6's VILLAIN RUINS THE WORLD (but everybody survives) even though *everybody* remembers that part of the game.

EDIT: ok nobody didn't say that he just brought it up and i put words in his mouth i'm sorry

I think it's humor and approach were definitely influential. It's a parody of the RPG genre, because it does not use a steampunk or medieval setting. And things like status' effect were being turned stoned, but rather things like loneliness. As far as classic games go, it is very well remember for its humor and parody elements as well as gameplay.

Point me to what it influenced, then. I'm drawing a total blank on all my post-SNES RPGs that sound like they were influenced by that in the slightest. I'm willing to believe you if you can steer me right.

Remember, being remembered well is not the same as having an impact. A whole bundle of people (relatively speaking) remember Morrowind, but it didn't have much of an overall impact.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Integrity

[Rehab]

Geez, you guys can be gloomy.

It's hard to tell what would've been remembered and what would've really stood out had it been released earlier, but at the very least I doubt the game would've gone completely ignored. Matchmaking-as-game-mechanic itself was a pretty unique deal for the time (still kinda is). And the strength of the twist is that it paints everything you were doing in the first half of the game in a "oh shit I am the imperialist" light, not to mention offering your main main character and the love interest to the plot gods is always going to be ballsy. I mean, there's actual politics in this game, and there's not a character whose actions are unambiguously good both in intention and affect until we get to Serlis. That has to count for something, throw the 17-year-old game a bone here.

There were also some touches like child burning, possession, and the whole "holy blood dynasties" thing that I doubt would've gone completely unnoticed and praised, assuming it wasn't censored.*

*Since we're already imagining an alternate history with this game having actually been localized, I'm choosing to imagine it's also an alternate history where NoA's censorship policy wasn't so intrusive.

I'm thinking at the very fucking least, Earthbound-tier cult classic.

i am about 95% certain that fe4 being localised wouldn't have had any impact at all because it's fire emblem

nobody cares about fire emblem

An alternate history where fire emblem got localized, especially if it included the whole series, could be totally different in this regard, though, that's the point

Edited August 28, 2013 by Rehab

[amadeuscho]

Do you honestly think that's something that would have been aped had FE4 been localized? I don't. Like Nobody said, nobody (har har) aped FF6's VILLAIN RUINS THE WORLD (but everybody survives) even though *everybody* remembers that part of the game.

EDIT: ok nobody didn't say that he just brought it up and i put words in his mouth i'm sorry

Point me to what it influenced, then. I'm drawing a total blank on all my post-SNES RPGs that sound like they were influenced by that in the slightest. I'm willing to believe you if you can steer me right.

Remember, being remembered well is not the same as having an impact. A whole bundle of people (relatively speaking) remember Morrowind, but it didn't have much of an overall impact.

Crono dies in Chrono Trigger and you don't have to revive him. Characters can die all the time in games, especially RPG's. They just can't die permanently. I don't see anything in that particular scene that would need to be censored, since they die from a magic attack.

South Park: Stick of Truth specifically mentions it as inspiration. But elements from the game do take their cue from it. The whole boy fights in a regular world is used by games like Pokemon. It is the first of the modern surrealist adventure games. Other elements include no random battles (so you can avoid them), auto-attack, and even the way you lose health when you attack.The self-aware humor can be seen in both the Mario and Luigi and the Paper Mario series. I brought up Earthbound because it's cult status was unaffected by its lack of sales. But Earthbound doesn't have a groundbreaking event like FE4.

I have to agree with Rehab. My point was I think that the end of chapter 5 (battle of belhalla) was like nothing we had seen in gaming prior, and I believe it would have been a classic moment of gaming. The game doesn't suggest that you are going to die midway through the game, so I think it would have been a complete surprise to gamers. Everything about this game's plot would have been groundbreaking. But especially the part where the game tells you essentially that you're fight against evil has been all for naught.

"And so, an era had come to pass. Grandbell's disturbance, stemming from the campaign from Isaac, led one young man into a disastrous fate. Along with many other sorrowful tales, his story was lost to the world..."

Imagine feeling that moment in 90s.

[Integrity]

I have to agree with Rehab. My point was I think that the end of chapter 5 (battle of belhalla) was like nothing we had seen in gaming prior, and I believe it would have been a classic moment of gaming.

I'm snipping your whole post to exactly this because you're missing my point. Sure, the game might make TOP TEN LISTS everywhere or be remembered as a cult classic (see: morrowind) or whatever, but do you really think it would have impact on the industry at large (or even the SRPG industry), or do you mean something else by "impact" and I've been arguing against the wrong thing for, uh, ever?

Remember, please, impact on gaming is different than impact on individual gamers, which I'm starting to suspect is what you're arguing for and isn't what I am.

[amadeuscho]

I'm snipping your whole post to exactly this because you're missing my point. Sure, the game might make TOP TEN LISTS everywhere or be remembered as a cult classic (see: morrowind) or whatever, but do you really think it would have impact on the industry at large (or even the SRPG industry), or do you mean something else by "impact" and I've been arguing against the wrong thing for, uh, ever?

Remember, please, impact on gaming is different than impact on individual gamers, which I'm starting to suspect is what you're arguing for and isn't what I am.

First of all, I'm going to post the opening line of my post:

Do you think FE4 would have had a major impact on gaming due to the events of Battle of Belhalla at the end of Chapter 5? I don't know of any game within the 16 bit and 8 bit eras that basically killed of the many of its leading protagonists (including the main one).

It's been unchanged since the beginning. So from the beginning, I've been asking particularly about the end of chapter 5. I guess people just skipped the OP and focused on the generality of the thread title, which I have changed. So I have never been saying that this game would be particular influential in the sense of other games' copying its mechanics. What I have been saying is that from a storytelling standpoint, this game broke new ground never seen in gaming before. Like when Aeris was killed in FF7, which has been very impactful to gaming. Not as a moment that everyone copies, but a key milestone of RPG's and video games of that era.

Now FF7 has had much, much more sales success than any particular Fire Emblem game. But I would argue that FF7's event succeeded as a storytelling because it transcended the game itself. Even someone who hasn't played the game can I recognize this moment as a key moment in gaming from a storytelling standpoint. Now I am arguing that the event (end of chapter 5) in Fire Emblem would have had a similar impact from a storytelling perspective. I think audience size can play a role but it is not be all end all. As far as storytelling twists go, it's a pretty big twist that would have never been attempted at this point.

I feel you can legitimately disagree with this point, as the game's lower sales would impact how many players would experience the game. But that's is why it's a discussion.

[Integrity]

So we *are* arguing two different things. That's all there is to that, then.

EDIT: Actually, on reflection, we really aren't. Here's my thing with FE4 C5:

Yeah, ROCKS FALL EVERYONE DIES and all, but just because something hasn't been done before doesn't mean that it's necessarily going to be remembered for it. Plus, FF7 made the impact it did partially because it sold massively - a niche series like FE really wouldn't be able to make that kind of a splash in Western gaming culture. I have no idea how things are in Japan on the matter, but is FE4 held up there as a milestone in storytelling?

EDIT2: By that question, I'm looking for an answer more than "it made x place on famitsu's best sfc games." I don't know what exactly I'm looking for, but that sounds ...not enoughish.

I honestly think the only way FE4 could have made any significant impact on gaming (and i'm still doubting that earthbound-grade counts as "impact") would be if FE4 took off in a way that the FE series in general never has over here, and there's no reason to suspect it would because FE4 is sort of a niche game within a niche series. Fire Emblem just isn't important. :P

Edited August 28, 2013 by Integrity

[amadeuscho]

So we *are* arguing two different things. That's all there is to that, then.

EDIT: Actually, on reflection, we really aren't. Here's my thing with FE4 C5:

Yeah, ROCKS FALL EVERYONE DIES and all, but just because something hasn't been done before doesn't mean that it's necessarily going to be remembered for it. Plus, FF7 made the impact it did partially because it sold massively - a niche series like FE really wouldn't be able to make that kind of a splash in Western gaming culture. I have no idea how things are in Japan on the matter, but is FE4 held up there as a milestone in storytelling?

EDIT2: By that question, I'm looking for an answer more than "it made x place on famitsu's best sfc games." I don't know what exactly I'm looking for, but that sounds ...not enoughish.

I honestly think the only way FE4 could have made any significant impact on gaming (and i'm still doubting that earthbound-grade counts as "impact") would be if FE4 took off in a way that the FE series in general never has over here, and there's no reason to suspect it would because FE4 is sort of a niche game within a niche series. Fire Emblem just isn't important. :P

Yeah, I think the lack of it being important does speak against what I'm saying. I think the US overall if more reflexive and more nostalgia reliant. Japan from what I can tell isn't as introspective. I look at it more from the perspective from film storytelling and how certain twists are well known despite not being the most widely accepted films.

I don't have an answer for that.

I started the thread to ask the question and I think you have given a great answer.

[General Banzai]

No impact whatsoever, it's a wimpy plot twist made worse by the non-dimensional aspect of the Gen 1 characters which comes smack dab in the center of a benign and pointless plot in a generally boring game

[Guy Starwind]

I think if FE4 would had been released originally outside Japan it would have a bigger impact. Now maybe if they didn't mention generation 2 at all it might have a larger impact but anyone who has played FE13 knows the game has a generation 2.

[Refa]

No no no, the *first* release being bad tends to discourage future releases. That's a MASSIVE difference from one bad release.

To be fair, I'm pretty sure the first Dragon Quest was a legendary flop, got so bad that they had to literally give copies away for free with subscriptions to Nintendo Power. And Final Fantasy 1 wasn't much better.

That being said, I think if Nintendo was to release an FE game back in the day, they'd be better off starting with FE3.

[Othin]

okay so

if it was released in japan and didn't influence the games made in japan

why would it have influenced the games made outside of japan if it was released outside of japan

[Rehab]

There's no absolute proof that it would've influenced western audiences, but it's not like there haven't been occasions where western audiences ended up flipping more shit over a game made in Japan than did Japanese audiences.

[spoiler=Grumble, grumble]/Given prompt to *~imagine~* how things might've ended up being different for the series in an alternate universe:

"Everything would have been exactly the same."

"[Maybe even worse.]"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43GChXc6RVY

You guys are no fun

[Nobody]

I wonder how they would take the sibling incest out of the game when it's SO central to the plot

[amadeuscho]

I posit that the reaction would have been different because of the approach of games in the media. Nintendo of Japan had no problems with violence or other offensive material that NoA later censored. So the reaction would have been different as a result because the expectations American audiences had for games due to this censorship. Additionally, the US is more reflexive in how they examine gaming as far as I can tell. Games and events in games can grow in stature in gaming media due to this approach.

I keeping bringing up the Death of Aeris as a significant moment for gamers being the comparison. As far as narrative storytelling in video games goes, its the closest thing to FE4's twist. There was no other game at the time where all your lead characters were basically killed halfway through the game. Just imagine the average American gamer's reaction when playing the game. Now imagine how Nintendo Power might magnify that.

[Ϲharlie]

I suspect it would have went the way of Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen. That is to say it would probably have been released to little to no fanfare, but would later command really high prices on the used market due to (possibly perceived) rarity.