If everyone in the cast didn't have a gimmick....

[Constable Reggie]

You're seriously going to stick to that claim?

Well, I at least can admire your determination if nothing else

Edited September 20, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[Phoenix Wright]

If FE13 is a satire, then the writers at IS do not do satire well. At all.

@Viewtiful:

Your [poor] summaries of the plots speak nothing of the characterization and storytelling within the games. The basic plot of most RPGs are simple; the real magic from RPGs is how well the game plays and how well the story is told. FE did 47.5% of this right in retrospect/multiple plays, and 57.3% right on one's first run through. If characterization and the story don't matter (for those naysayers that say IS and other companies don't need/shouldn't focus on it), why do RPGs even exist? An RPG without an epic or deep (but small-scale) story and piss-poor characters makes for an extremely boring RPG.

FE13's characters are some of the most boring characters I've ever encountered in any form of media.

Edited September 20, 2013 by Phoenix Wright

[Realm Traveller]

I can't stand Kellam and Sumia. They're WAY too overdone.

[amadeuscho]

it wasnt a personal attack

who gives a shit if its cliche if its well-done

tell me anything you like, any story, even goddam shakespeare, and i can summarize it in a sentence that makes it seem trivial and silly

stripping a story down like that in order to attack it means absolutely nothing

whats important is the story itself, and all facets of it, which isnt just "is my biased one-sentence explanation cliched" but an entire range of things including execution writing characters tone theme symbolism suspense tension conflict depth etc etc etc

eirikas a better written lord than most lords in FE, certainly better than Sigurd Lyn Micaiah and Lief (lief's fucking game is "how many times can lief fuck up and then get told he fucked up by his million advisors" <- oh look i can do the one sentence trivialization as well, because guess what really lief's story is brilliant)

Pussiest isn't a term you should use, especially toward a female (not me, the person preceding me). Even if my words were cowardly or wimpy, there are better words you can use besides pussiest. Like wimpiest. Pussy in the way that you used it has a negative connotation, so that's why I perceived. I was simply playing off the old adage "it's just a game." Which is why I said literally. Didn't mean for it to shut off conversation or anything cowardly.

My point was that it was cliche. And that FE9 and 10 are significantly better. So I'm glad we agree. I like FE7 and FE8's story, but I'm admitting that certain elements are cliche.

I would argue that people are overlooking certain aspects of FE13. FE13 has all those elements. I meant that Eirika is the most unintelligent and naive lord I've ever played as. I can't stand her leadership or when she says naive things in the game. Especially since it appears to me to have been done in order to contrast it with Ephraim's intelligence/brilliance.

I too can generalize the shit out of someone and say that the fe13 hype is distorting your view of the game.

Even if we ignore the fact that you didn't even get Fe7's plot summary right, if all you can judge from fe7/8's story is their summarizable plots, then honestly, you've missed the point. The plots in those two games are the backdrops for the characters, and that's what makes them so compelling. Focusing on Brammimond somehow reviving Ninian is irrelevant; what's important is the closure of the character of Ninian. Likewise, only saying that Lyon is corrupted by dark stones is disingenuous at best. The corruption exists to characterize Lyon and his complex relationship with Ephraim/Eirika, and the repercussions of that relationship.

What importance does Emmeryn's death hold when you kill Gangrel just two chapters later and immediately go right to the next arc with no real time to contemplate her death's impact? What does Emmeryn's bonus chapter do for her character besides give more of the blatant fanservice this game is infamous for? She wasn't brought back in order to bring closure to her character, or anything similarly important, she was brought back so people could have her as their waifu.

Also banzai your assertion that Awakening is some kind of satire of the Fe formula is fucking hilarious, and not for the reasons you'd think

I wasn't particular talking about anyone, not especially you. Thought you didn't want to discuss things with me anymore. I'm glad we can continue our conversation.

I just pointed out to cliched aspect of the storylines. Didn't summarize the whole plot. Hence it's one sentence or two. Ninian's character didn't need closure necessarily. It depends on what you wanted Ninian's character to achieve. It would be more tragic had she tied, because Eliwood struck her down without thinking. Ninian's return is worse than Emmeryn's in a way, since she is clearly established as dead by Eliwood's hand. So it's much cheaper to bring her back. Emmeryn's death followed the old comic book role: no body = chance she's alive.

It's very clear that the use of dark stones corrupted Lyon in some way. If I remember correctedly, when he tell Eirika and Ephraim that it was him all along, his portrait still portrays that he might be under control. It's a mixture of influence, but mind control and dark powers are highly cliche.

There are two whole chapters dedicated to dealing with the death were long chapters for the game. Two chapters can vary in time, as seen by FE4's short amount of chapters. The combination of music, script, and level design displayed the importance of Emmeryn's death to Chrom. Emmeryn's death triggers the second half of the story, as Chrom takes up the position as Exault. Emmeryn's death is more akin to the death of previous lords' fathers like Eliwood or Marth, in which it serves the role of allowing the main lord to take control of the throne.

I don't have an problem with bonus chapters. I don't consider them canon so that's something we will have to disagree on. I think bringing back characters is fine because it feels like a separate part of the story, and it's optional. I guess my big thing is I don't have a problem with fanservice in games, especially if its not in the main plot. The spotpass chapters could have easily been made DLC, but IS made them free. If I didn't like one, I just don't download it for a playthrough. I don't particular enjoy Gangrel joining the team.

Didn't say that Awakening was a satire. Specifically referred to event tiles and quote. Didn't say they were satire. Said they were inserted for pure fun, just like Tales' corny skits.

If FE13 is a satire, then the writers at IS do not do satire well. At all.

@Viewtiful:

Your [poor] summaries of the plots speak nothing of the characterization and storytelling within the games. The basic plot of most RPGs are simple; the real magic from RPGs is how well the game plays and how well the story is told. FE did 47.5% of this right in retrospect/multiple plays, and 57.3% right on one's first run through. If characterization and the story don't matter (for those naysayers that say IS and other companies don't need/shouldn't focus on it), why do RPGs even exist? An RPG without an epic or deep (but small-scale) story and piss-poor characters makes for an extremely boring RPG.

FE13's characters are some of the most boring characters I've ever encountered in any form of media.

Just pointing out some of the cliche's and the inferiority of FE7's and FE8's plot to FE9 and FE10's. I always think gameplay comes first, and then story. They should be developed at the same time, but one should be a priority over the other. Because it's a game. I think a great story is also needed, but I also think FE13 has a great story. I would agree that an RPG that you described would be boring.

There is great characterization in Fire Emblem Awakening. I don't think I can change your mind about that.

I think another problem is that we need to recognize different tastes that we all have. For example, one of the most annoying complaint I hear is that the game has too many anime influences/cliches. I think that has more to do with someone's opinion about anime rather than the game. I can't change your opinion about anime, or the fact that saying that generalizes anime broadly.

I thought that they were pretty well done cliches, and this may have just been gameplay, but I way preferred FE7 to FE13. I still feel that Emmeryn's "death" means nothing as she was about to get to killed anyway. Ninian was manipulated by Nergal and forced to attack Eliwood. Her death had a much bigger impact on me than Emmeryn's. Emmeryn was also a pretty flat character, and stubborn by the fact that she went back to Ylisstol in chapter seven.

I respect your opinions, and I can see how you can not like Ninian's death.

Thanks for understanding my point. They were cliches, pure and simple. I agree that Ninian's death had a bigger impact on me, (I was also ten years younger at the time. Emmeryn's choice was to take the decision out of Chrom's hands. Because despite no matter what option you choose, she still protects you as an older sister, and puts your well being above her life. It's the ultimate final act of love from a sister. So there is no surprise in Emmeryn's death, but there is great meaning behind it for me.

Ninian's death was such a surprise because I believe at the time I had no idea she could turn into a dragon. And that was very well done.

I am of two minds. On one level, I believe that on a story level, her return was poorly handled. I would have preferred to die by her hands. On the other hand, the Eliwood vs Ninian as dragon aspect works best if Ninian and Eliwood are at a support. I feel that Ninian is the canon wife (not trying to argue about this) due to this aspect of the story, and thus I understand why IS had to bring her back for the purpose of Roy being born. I would have preferred for their to be a time skip within the story that would allow Ninian to give birth to Roy prior to her death, and for that to be explained in a slightly longer Roy X Ninian ending.

[General Banzai]

fun fact: "pussy" when referring to a coward or wimp derives from the old english "pursy", meaning fat and short-breathed, rather than the derogatory word for the female genitalia

on top of that, I used the word "pussest", NOT pussiest, which as I told you in your PM to me was intentional, and that usage of the word implies the base is "puss", meaning kittycat, not "pussy".

also dont fucking white knight for people who didnt ask for it

[Phoenix Wright]

Just pointing out some of the cliche's and the inferiority of FE7's and FE8's plot to FE9 and FE10's. I always think gameplay comes first, and then story. They should be developed at the same time, but one should be a priority over the other. Because it's a game. I think a great story is also needed, but I also think FE13 has a great story. I would agree that an RPG that you described would be boring.

There is great characterization in Fire Emblem Awakening. I don't think I can change your mind about that.

I think another problem is that we need to recognize different tastes that we all have. For example, one of the most annoying complaint I hear is that the game has too many anime influences/cliches. I think that has more to do with someone's opinion about anime rather than the game. I can't change your opinion about anime, or the fact that saying that generalizes anime broadly.

every basis for every fire emblem is incredibly cliche and terrible. the storytelling is the unique/greatness factor here, then.

contained in the spoiler below are my thoughts on the characters, one by one, in order of how they're seen here.

boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, good, boring, meh, meh, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, boring, meh, meh, awful, cool, boring, meh, creepy, meh, boring, cool, weird, meh, boring, BASILIO, FLAVIA, meh

children: boring, boring, meh, meh, okay, boring, boring, awful, BATMAN (kinda), boring, boring, boring, boring

i think an overwhelming majority of characters are poorly written and to be 100% honest, i don't really see how one could perceive most of those characters i deemed boring as anything but (i will admit a few are debatable). whenever i play this game nowadays, i skip all dialogue unless i feel like taking a nap.

the lack of effort put into characterization is deep. deeper than the story, even.

Edited September 20, 2013 by Phoenix Wright

[Constable Reggie]

I wasn't particular talking about anyone, not especially you. Thought you didn't want to discuss things with me anymore. I'm glad we can continue our conversation.

That was regarding character and story-to-gameplay quality comparisons. But, looking at your response, it seems you're still at the same level regarding any story aspect whatsoever. I was being facetious when I mentioned the generalization thing, but it's starting to look pretty spot on for you specifically.

Oh and saying gameplay always > story just because its a game is extremely shallow reasoning. That's like saying visuals are always more important than story in movies.

Didn't say that Awakening was a satire. Specifically referred to event tiles and quote. Didn't say they were satire. Said they were inserted for pure fun, just like Tales' corny skits

The satire bit wasn't even directed to you. It clearly mentions banzai

Edited September 20, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[Junkhead]

I'm not very observant, and I am rather easy to impress in many things, like "bad" movies, or in this case- Writing.

What is it that you guys expect of a game? It's not to say a game can't have good writing, but...I feel that you could be asking a bit too much, and happen to get a little out of hand referring to characters as "gimmicks" many, many times...

And like I said, I'm not a person that reads books, so I don't really know very well what's "good" and what isn't.

[Constable Reggie]

I expected this game to at least have some semblance of the level of story quality from 7-9

[Junkhead]

Oh, let me clarify...I'm talking about characters here. Unless you meant that for characters, as well. I actually agree on that, if that were the case...I liked the supports from FE7-9. In FE13, a few I've read just seem too short. Must be looking in the wrong places.

[Party Moth]

Just pointing out some of the cliche's and the inferiority of FE7's and FE8's plot to FE9 and FE10's. I always think gameplay comes first, and then story. They should be developed at the same time, but one should be a priority over the other. Because it's a game. I think a great story is also needed, but I also think FE13 has a great story. I would agree that an RPG that you described would be boring.

There is great characterization in Fire Emblem Awakening. I don't think I can change your mind about that.

I think another problem is that we need to recognize different tastes that we all have. For example, one of the most annoying complaint I hear is that the game has too many anime influences/cliches. I think that has more to do with someone's opinion about anime rather than the game. I can't change your opinion about anime, or the fact that saying that generalizes anime broadly.

And there is a reason why anime is rarely taken seriously as a form of art. FE13 does not take nods from anime that is good.

If you're going to put a heavy focus on story in a video game, it must take priority and go the full extra mile if it is to be taken seriously. The problem is that FE13 tries to be a story without understanding what makes a story work. The game wants to employ ideas of human morality and introduces yes-or-no choices to the player, but squanders it all with fake choices and a lack of human empathy for anyone who isn't on your side of the army. What's insidious is that it pretends to be so without any understanding of why these elements were employed and used in FE9.

And that's what FE13 is, really. An attempt to emulate storytelling aspects of previous games, all meshed into one. It's fanservice to the ultimate level. Without the storyline to back it up, all the game can do storywise is employ deep characterization. Which it doesn't.

I mentioned earlier that "If you took away every characters' gimmicks, they'd be completely bland." While there are a few who would not be as deeply affected, it all boils down to the fact that most of these characters were written as gimmicks first, characters second. It feels cheap and cliched in a way FE7 or FE8 never did. As others have noted, I can point to characters from previous games and understand why they worked and the current ones did not. Validar does not hold the menace of Gharnef. Grima does not hold the inherent injustice felt by Medeus. Chrom's actions threaten to invalidate him as the protagonist without any instory justification whereas the actions of characters such as Hector and Micaiah deserve reprimand and allow for critical self-evaluation.

These failings are why everything in this game depends on the characterization. And when you have living breathing stereotypes all over the place who depend on dialogue quirks and labels such as "tsundere" and "yandere" to be enjoyed, you're taking the wrong aspects of what makes characterization work.

I'm not very observant, and I am rather easy to impress in many things, like "bad" movies, or in this case- Writing.

What is it that you guys expect of a game? It's not to say a game can't have good writing, but...I feel that you could be asking a bit too much, and happen to get a little out of hand referring to characters as "gimmicks" many, many times...

And like I said, I'm not a person that reads books, so I don't really know very well what's "good" and what isn't.

Is it really that much to ask for a plot that makes sense?

[Phoenix Wright]

I'm not very observant, and I am rather easy to impress in many things, like "bad" movies, or in this case- Writing.

What is it that you guys expect of a game? It's not to say a game can't have good writing, but...I feel that you could be asking a bit too much, and happen to get a little out of hand referring to characters as "gimmicks" many, many times...

And like I said, I'm not a person that reads books, so I don't really know very well what's "good" and what isn't.

i've stated many times before that i'm not asking for top-level, TLoU/MGS/other AAA title work here. Just something that won't literally put me to sleep (like FE13 can and has). FE7 is acceptable. that new translation patch for FE6 seems to be acceptable. FE13? unacceptable.

for characters? similarly, FE7 is acceptable. but all that i ask for in a character is some depth. i don't want tropes, gimmicks, or what have you, to easily define a character. many, many, many characters in FE13 can be described in one word with remarkable accuracy. that's BAD characterization. and again, i've conceded time and time again that this may mean cutting the amount of characters in a cast. 25-30 is very reasonable.

Edited September 20, 2013 by Phoenix Wright

[Constable Reggie]

Oh, let me clarify...I'm talking about characters here. Unless you meant that for characters, as well. I actually agree on that, if that were the case...I liked the supports from FE7-9. In FE13, a few I've read just seem too short. Must be looking in the wrong places.

When I say story I include everything that's relevant to a narrative, ie characters, support convos, etc alongside the plot. So yeah, I find everything storywise in 13 to be lacking, not only just the plot

Edited September 20, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[Junkhead]

i've stated many times before that i'm not asking for top-level, TLoU/MGS/other AAA title work here. Just something that won't literally put me to sleep (like FE13 can and has). FE7 is acceptable. that new translation patch for FE6 seems to be acceptable. FE13? unacceptable.

for characters? similarly, FE7 is acceptable. but all that i ask for in a character is some depth. i don't want tropes, gimmicks, or what have you, to easily define a character. many, many, many characters in FE13 can be described in one word with remarkable accuracy. that's BAD characterization. and again, i've conceded time and time again that this may mean cutting the amount of characters in a cast. 25-30 is very reasonable.

That's...reasonable.

What is TLoU and AAA (Ace Attourney?), by the way? Also, another game with a great story I recommend, is Legacy of Kain series. That thing is just...wow.

When I say story I include everything that's relevant to a narrative, ie characters, support convos, etc alongside the plot. So yeah, I find everything storywise in 13 to be lacking, not only just the plot

Ah.

You said that LIBRA was among the best written characters (along with Virion & Gregor), I want to read why you think so. Probably Virion at that, too.

[RJWalker]

If you took away the gimmick, there would be nothing left but a name and face.

[Phoenix Wright]

That's...reasonable.

What is TLoU and AAA (Ace Attourney?), by the way? Also, another game with a great story I recommend, is Legacy of Kain series. That thing is just...wow.

Ah.

You said that LIBRA was among the best written characters (along with Virion & Gregor), I want to read why you think so. Probably Virion at that, too.

TLoU is one of my favorite games of all time--The Last of Us, created and developed by...NAUGHTY DOG. What I meant by "other AAA titles" is just that: blockbuster, huge hits. Think GTA V here ($265 million investment or something like that). But yeah, the Ace Attorney series is also expertly written. That's kinda what the game has going for it. It's more of a visual novel, like Heavy Rain, than a traditional video game. Court sessions wouldn't be half as fun in that game if the writing were poor. LoK is also fantastic, I agree. The game itself is a little difficult to get back to, as it certainly didn't age well, but the story is quite gripping, even now in my opinion.

Edited September 20, 2013 by Phoenix Wright

[Loki Laufeyson]

You're seriously going to stick to that claim?

Well, I at least can admire your determination if nothing else

Lol yeah.

s it really that much to ask for a plot that makes sense?

Apparently. :/

Lots of games dont know how to balance good plot with good gameplay. Like Xenogears. That game is a solid wall of plot and its a very fucking good plot. But the gameplay itself actually suffers. (a lot of that had to due with that Meddling Square!!) The battle system is fun but outside of that, not so much. (i still love that game though) Characterization in Xenogears is really good for its core cast, but some guys get the shaft. (again see that Meddling Square. I hate you, FFVIII!)

I dont expect a Xenogears style plot in FE. (pffff lol no) But i expect something like FE9 once in awhile. FE13s plot is hella stupid for reasons people already pointed out. Only a handful of characters are deeper than their gimmicks. While, still, most of the cast is pretty enjoyable, i can really see why people have a beef with the writing.

[General Banzai]

And like I said, I'm not a person that reads books, so I don't really know very well what's "good" and what isn't.

books aren't inherently better stories than video games or movies or other media

people think they are somehow more "intelligent" but that's not true at all

also you guys in general demonstrate an entirely one-dimensional outlook on what storytelling is and should be, as seen from the mentions of Phoenix Wright and MGS as examples of "good" storytelling in games

Pikmin 2 has a far better story than either of those examples

I'm even starting to believe Thracia 776 has the best story in the FE series, or it at least would be if not for Veld

Edited September 20, 2013 by General Banzai

[Junkhead]

Yeah it's commonly made seem that way. I get the impression that people who have better arguing points and eloquence read more. Alot more.

Edited September 20, 2013 by bearclaw95

[General Banzai]

Yeah it's commonly made seem that way. I get the impression that people who have better arguing points and eloquence read more. Alot more.

i read more than anyone else in this thread, it hasn't helped me

[Junkhead]

But how do you know you've read more than most/all of us?

[General Banzai]

But how do you know you've read more than most/all of us?

I read at least 50 pages of a book every day without missing a day for fun, on top of the reading I do as an english major, and I have held to this regimen for three years

This reading includes shakespeare, homer, aeschylus, milton, faulkner, hemingway, t.s. eliot, orwell, vonnegut, pynchon, joyce, sophocles, euripides, conrad, cervantes, yeats, coleridge, wordsworth, mark z. danielewski, philip k dick, kafka, ellison, emerson, thoreau, nathaniel hawthorne, melville, borges, roberto bolano, stephen king, cormac mccarthy, kazuo ishiguro, henrik ibsen, virgil, ovid, the entire king james bible, jane austen, charles dickens, robert browning, fyodor dostoyevsky, anton chekhov (the namesake of chekhov's gun), ralph wright, salinger, camus, bradbury, graham greene, nabokov, arthur miller, sartre, steinbeck, tolkein, oscar wilde, as well as literary theorists such as roland barthes and joseph campbell

that's maybe 25% of the authors I've read

I'm also older than most people here and as such have more reading experience in general

Oh I also write, I've written 7 novels in the last 5 years

[amadeuscho]

fun fact: "pussy" when referring to a coward or wimp derives from the old english "pursy", meaning fat and short-breathed, rather than the derogatory word for the female genitalia

on top of that, I used the word "pussest", NOT pussiest, which as I told you in your PM to me was intentional, and that usage of the word implies the base is "puss", meaning kittycat, not "pussy".

also dont fucking white knight for people who didnt ask for it

I've never heard the word pussest. To my knowledge it's not a word. Puss is a noun and therefore cannot be added as an -est, and be grammatically correct. So I'm the kittycatiest? That sounds like a distinct honor. Thanks for the compliment.

Unless being a kittycat is meant to be insult of put down. In which case, I don't think it really works. It only works if you mean something else by kitty cat. And not a feline (maybe coward?).

I just state what I think. It appears that this in fact is what you meant, so I retract my previous statement. But I don't think pussest is a word, hence my confusion about what word you were trying to say.

also you guys in general demonstrate an entirely one-dimensional outlook on what storytelling is and should be, as seen from the mentions of Phoenix Wright and MGS as examples of "good" storytelling in games

Pikmin 2 has a far better story than either of those examples

I'm even starting to believe Thracia 776 has the best story in the FE series, or it at least would be if not for Veld

I, however, completely agree with you on this point. Which is funny, because the Ace Attorney series uses many of the same devices as employed by this game (huge anime influence, cliche characters, etc).

I think people fail to realize that with games, gameplay is an element of storytelling. It's the means by which much of the story moves, and often many things of consequence within that confine. You can no more separate gameplay from story than you can separate the visual from films.

The best American comic book of all time is Amazing Spider-Man 33. It doesn't have in depth characters other than the standard Peter Parker characterizations. But the art and plot meld together perfectly to the point where the panels grow in size as if to match the importance of Peter Parkers actions.

My point is what I am describing to you does not make sense in any other medium. The same can be said for games and the means by which it tells a story.

And there is a reason why anime is rarely taken seriously as a form of art. FE13 does not take nods from anime that is good.

Anime is just a term for Japanese animation. It's just a means of telling a story. I have not heard anyone serious say anime is not a form of art. If they have, they haven't been watching the right anime. Watch Cowboy Bebop. Watch Akira. Watch Spirited Away. Watch Berserk. The same can be said for its manga counterparts, in which many anime derive from as source material. Read Berserk. Read Ghost in the Shell. Read Blade of the Immortal And if you say manga isn't art, it's derived from its American counterparts. Which are most definitely art. They are in fact the epitome of art. Both manga and American comic books are art because they quite literally drawn; but also can have sweeping storytelling within the confines of its panels and pages. If you took the lowest common denominator of television, let's say "Two Broke Girls," and used to broadly describe all sitcoms as poor, then you would end up considering shows like "Louie," "30 Rock," and "Community" not as "art." Anime is just a means by which certain artists choose to tell a story.

If you're going to put a heavy focus on story in a video game, it must take priority and go the full extra mile if it is to be taken seriously. The problem is that FE13 tries to be a story without understanding what makes a story work. The game wants to employ ideas of human morality and introduces yes-or-no choices to the player, but squanders it all with fake choices and a lack of human empathy for anyone who isn't on your side of the army. What's insidious is that it pretends to be so without any understanding of why these elements were employed and used in FE9.

FE13 never attempts to make the yes or no choices seem if they have any consequence, that is to say, that the plot is actually affected by your decision. So you're inferring this employment of human morality.

And that's what FE13 is, really. An attempt to emulate storytelling aspects of previous games, all meshed into one. It's fanservice to the ultimate level. Without the storyline to back it up, all the game can do storywise is employ deep characterization. Which it doesn't.

I mentioned earlier that "If you took away every characters' gimmicks, they'd be completely bland." While there are a few who would not be as deeply affected, it all boils down to the fact that most of these characters were written as gimmicks first, characters second. It feels cheap and cliched in a way FE7 or FE8 never did. As others have noted, I can point to characters from previous games and understand why they worked and the current ones did not. Validar does not hold the menace of Gharnef. Grima does not hold the inherent injustice felt by Medeus. Chrom's actions threaten to invalidate him as the protagonist without any instory justification whereas the actions of characters such as Hector and Micaiah deserve reprimand and allow for critical self-evaluation.

There are expectations you have about the roles that each of the key characters in FE game have to fulfill that aren't necessary in other types of games, even within the RPG genre. Why would you compare these different characters. And I completely don't understand your point about Chrom. Are you saying that the game doesn't make him the protagonist anymore and yet a) within gameplay, he is necessary for the story to progress. he is the definition of the main protagonist b) fail to recognize that the avatar is present as a main character just as much throughout the game so there is no reason to think the game isn't focusing on the main protagonist c) the possibility of multiple protagonists within game (shocker). In fact, I recall Micaiah playing not too big a role in comparison to Ike in part 4.

These failings are why everything in this game depends on the characterization. And when you have living breathing stereotypes all over the place who depend on dialogue quirks and labels such as "tsundere" and "yandere" to be enjoyed, you're taking the wrong aspects of what makes characterization work.

Is it really that much to ask for a plot that makes sense?

It's lovely that everyone finds it fitting to switch around stereotypes and gimmicks despite being two different things. There is plenty of characterization within the game within the full range of supports. Labels such as tsundere and yandere mean absolutely nothing if you don't watch anime or don't hate anime stereotypes. Especially if you don't speak japanese.

The plot makes sense. I don't get what you're talking about. Where are the big gaping plotholes. Even if the game's characterization was terrible, the game's actual plot make perfect sense.

every basis for every fire emblem is incredibly cliche and terrible. the storytelling is the unique/greatness factor here, then.

contained in the spoiler below are my thoughts on the characters, one by one, in order of how they're seen here.

the lack of effort put into characterization is deep. deeper than the story, even.

as long as we agree on that point. Crossed out the part I disagree with. Every Fire Emblem has cliche elements.

As I've pointed out gameplay is an aspect of storytelling. I think we just disagree on what makes good characterization. I can't keep repeating my points, although I appreciate the fact you took the time to write boring a bunch of times. and here I though I was going to get thoughtful analysis.

Oh and saying gameplay always > story just because its a game is extremely shallow reasoning. That's like saying visuals are always more important than story in movies.

With games, gameplay is an element of storytelling. It's the means by which much of the story moves, and often many things of consequence within that confine. I did say a great story was necessary, so your visuals point doesn't make much sense. If Final Fantasy VI was a crappy game, no one would be able to get through to its wonderful story. That's why great gameplay should always come first.

And the visuals do matter to film. Reading or even hearing a film's plot is much different than seeing the actual film. I can't say a film has a good storytelling if I never watch it. Poor acting and transitioning can take a great script and turn it into a bad film. Film is visual medium. It needs good visual storytelling in order to be good.

The satire bit wasn't even directed to you. It clearly mentions banzai

Ok cool.

What is it that you guys expect of a game? It's not to say a game can't have good writing, but...I feel that you could be asking a bit too much, and happen to get a little out of hand referring to characters as "gimmicks" many, many times...

This.

Edited September 21, 2013 by Viewtiful_J

[Phoenix Wright]

also you guys in general demonstrate an entirely one-dimensional outlook on what storytelling is and should be, as seen from the mentions of Phoenix Wright and MGS as examples of "good" storytelling in games

Please, don't hesitate to elaborate. Also, explain how I'm being "one-dimensional." There's bad bits to MGS's strategy in how it tells its story (exposition dumps), but as a whole, I think it's well-done.

@viewtiful: there's no way i'm going to give detailed analyses of characters i think are boring in my spare time.

Additionally, the difference between AA and FE, amongst many, is that those characters are seen for 1 case and are well-written, as opposed to seeing them for the entire game and then some with borderline terrible writing. I don't like everything about the franchise, but it is certainly a good example in my opinion.

ps. I never mentioned anything about my feelings towards the anime influences. I realize it's a general statement, but seeing as I'm the only one that's mentioned AA as an example, I can't help but feel it's a personalized argument towards me.

Edited September 21, 2013 by Phoenix Wright

[General Banzai]

I've never heard the word pussest. To my knowledge it's not a word. Puss is a noun and therefore cannot be added as an -est, and be grammatically correct.

like i care

Please, don't hesitate to elaborate. Also, explain how I'm being "one-dimensional."

those games pursue story in ways that are divorced from gameplay (phoenix wright less so, but only because it's hardly a game to begin with). If your medium is a video game, you should use the specific things you can do in a game to tell that story in a way that is different than how you would tell it in a book or movie

see my earlier comment about thracia having the best story in the series. Why? Because that game's gameplay tells the story as much as the story itself does. Fatigue, capturing, and even the inability to change formations at the beginning of chapters all create the impression of a harried, ragtag army constantly on the run and constantly in trouble. The game's oppressive and unfair difficulty places the player in the position of Lief, the naive and unknowledgeable leader who is constantly scolded by his advisors for doing the wrong thing. Meanwhile the story elements contribute to the gameplay as well, so that Lief's large group of bickering advisors (most clearly exemplified in August v Dorias) try to force their own ideas and views about strategy onto Lief/the player, and thus affect how the player plays the game. [we see this latter point in most, if not all, games in the series, but it occurs most notably here and in PoR]

video games are the ultimate expression of postmodernism, in which the reader/player does actual battle with the creator of art in the form of their creations. every game is in essence a puzzle which the player must solve in order to prevail over the puzzlemaker. this basic tension is at the heart of every game and is in and of itself a more compelling story than shakespeare

and yet many creators are content to obscure this tension through armies of cutscenes that are entirely removed from the actual content of the game

Edited September 21, 2013 by General Banzai