Is DG+ really that great?

[Elieson]

For support bots I understand why it's a primary role, because that's what it is designed for. But a 10% boost to proc, that's hardly reliable.

Don't like it /10

[Shadow Mir]

TBH, I don't really think so unless you plan to go through Apotheosis. I'd just get Luna and get out of Great Knight ASAP.

[Vashiane]

For support bots I understand why it's a primary role, because that's what it is designed for. But a 10% boost to proc, that's hardly reliable.

Don't like it /10

I think the maximum Dual Guard rate (or at least, the highest I've seen) is 40% and with Dual Guard+ that increases it to 50%. A fifty 50% chance to block ALL damage without any harm to the defender is pretty swell.

That said, yes, it's usually used for Apotheosis, or if one's a bit of a completionist and wants to get a hold of as many skills as possible.

[shadowofchaos]

In all seriousness, it's not *THAT* great of a skill.

Now when you're screwing around in Apotheosis, yes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsOkHezIRno

[Anacybele]

Oh, I like Dual Guard+! It makes it sweeter when a character protects their spouse or child in battle because they'll do it more often. And it's so perfect for Frederick, since he's all about defending those he serves and cares about. This is a reason I'm really tempted to put him in Paladin for a bit so he can get Defender... lol

Edited September 16, 2013 by Anacybele

[Tables]

The thing to remember is, supporters tend to get a lot less use out of skills than a front user does.

Most proc skills can't activate

They don't care about avoid, defence (much), dodge

They can't use field skills like move +1 (without switching of course)

That close to eliminates a huge swath of otherwise good skills for supports. But some skills have the same effect on the support as the front user - All the Dual+ skills, many 'aura' type skills such as Hex, Solidarity, Charm etc.* and perhaps a few others. And because supports have an otherwise more limited set of skills, stuff like DG+ becomes a really good thing for them.

Now DG+ itself is more or less an avoid skill. It's a little different - it boosts a different kind of avoid, and it works even in the fact of Hawkeye. It is ironic in a way - many people tend to say most avoid skills are pretty crap, but then put DG+ on as many units as possible. Avoid skills are generally pretty good, and DG+ working from the back is a big point in it's favour. To give some idea of how effective it is:

Suppose you have a choice between Avoid +10 and DG+ on your front unit (for whatever reason the support is decked out with skills you don't want to remove). Let's also say your defences are high enough that you have a default 35% DG rate. Going from 35% to 45% DG means you get hit 84.6% as often. What about Avoid +10? It depends on the enemy hit, thanks to the wonders of True Hit. A little spreadsheeting reveals that if the enemy hit is 73% or above (before avoid+10) then Avoid+10 reduces hit less, while if the enemy hit is 72% or below, Avoid+10 reduces enemy hit more. To give examples of these numbers, going from 75 to 65 hit results in true hit going from 87.75% to 75.85% - meaning you get hit 86.4% as often. While going from 65 hit to 55 hit results in TH going from 75.85% to 59.95% - so you get hit 79.0% as often. And as enemy hit decreases, Avoid +10's lead grows.

Now that's just one example, and of course a really key thing to remember is that DG+ works from the back. So while it's effect might not be huge, it's generally pretty noticable, especially for a support skill.

[Interceptor]

Yes, it's great. Play Lunatic+ some time, and you'll be worshiping at the altar of Dual Guard before you know it. It's the only mechanic that can negate those disgusting Luna+ enemies, and DG+ only makes it better.

[Tables]

Yes, it's great. Play Lunatic+ some time, and you'll be worshiping at the altar of Dual Guard before you know it. It's the only mechanic that can negate those disgusting Luna+ enemies, and DG+ only makes it better.

What about avoid, or Vantage, or DS to kill them first? It's hardly the only way, and it's one of the least reliable.

[Meteor]

Avo is nullified by Hawkeye, and Vantage by Counter. DS probably won't be enough to kill without taking a counterattack.

Edited September 16, 2013 by Meteor

[Interceptor]

What about avoid, or Vantage, or DS to kill them first? It's hardly the only way, and it's one of the least reliable.

Avoid doesn't work against the nightmare Hawkeye/Luna+ combo, Vantage needs to be on the Lead unit, and DS only helps if you can go first and secure the kill. Dual Guard also doesn't rely on the Lead unit being able to counter-attack, which is actually kind of important.

DG is the shit. Gives zero effs about your circumstances, and just contributes a consistent chance to negate damage.

[Elieson]

But 10%? A 1/10 chance at a guard occurances doesn't sound like a skill of reliability, even if it's to boost from 40-50 (because it's still 10% occurances).

Am I undervaluing 10%?

[Tables]

Avoid doesn't work against the nightmare Hawkeye/Luna+ combo, Vantage needs to be on the Lead unit, and DS only helps if you can go first and secure the kill. Dual Guard also doesn't rely on the Lead unit being able to counter-attack, which is actually kind of important.

DG is the shit. Gives zero effs about your circumstances, and just contributes a consistent chance to negate damage.

Your wording was "the ONLY mechanic". All of these only work under certain situations, so what? DG only works when it activates as well, that's not exactly reliable.

Avoid works against 5/6ths of enemies with Luna+ (excluding the resetzone chapters, but you can't even have DG+ for them). Vantage needs to be on the lead, so what, it's not like we're desperately short of skill slots on a no-grind run. Not to mention getting your support partners to level 15 promoted to learn DG+, that's something I didn't even want to do on Lunatic, let alone Luna+. And even then, I never said it was a better method, just a method. And obviously DS's only work if you kill them. It's got a better proc rate than DG does though, so if I had to get hit, I'd rather chance one of them than a DG.

DG is like the Jack of All Trades. It always works, but it's often not the best tool in any given situation.

[Blademaster!]

DG is always active. Avoid isn't. DG+ effects both units in a pair and has zero reason not to be given to a support unit. That alone makes it a pretty great skill.

[Anacybele]

Yeah, I think Dual Guard+ is always active. Frederick guards Kelli for me a crapton and more than other people who are married that guard their spouses.

Edited September 16, 2013 by Anacybele

[Interceptor]

Am I undervaluing 10%?

Yes. A unit can face a lot of consecutive attacks in this game, because of Enemy Phase. Nothing else does precisely what Dual Guard does, and Support units have pretty limited options. It's an excellent skill that can be difficult to get to.

If you're playing in a Carebear mode, it may not matter (due to overpowering stats on your units), but there's a place for DG+ in this game.

Your wording was "the ONLY mechanic".

A thousand pardons for not being specific enough to satisfy your demands for pedantry. Do you understand what I was getting at now, or do I need to break out my electron microscope?

so what

The question was, "Is DG+ really that great?", and the answer is: "yes, it is". It may not be easy to get DG+, but if you have it, it's really useful in Lunatic+. There are no conditions except activation (extreme flexibility), and DG+ gives you more benefit than you can reasonably get from other sources (such as increasing DEF/RES directly).

Every other option is inferior to DG. Vantage requires that you be beaten half to death, able to attack in the first place (underrated point: enemy Longbows and Mire users huehuehue at Vantage), and able to KO the enemy before they strike. DS has the same limitations on Enemy Phase due to requiring Vantage in the first place, and on Player Phase only works if you can wipe an enemy in one volley. Aegis+ and Pavise+ make this considerably more difficult to do in many random situations.

DG doesn't give a shit about any of that. You have an X% chance to negate the damage, period. DG+ is a great skill because it gives you an S-rank activation increase, that works for both damage types, contained in one itty-bitty little skill.

DG is like the Jack of All Trades. It always works, but it's often not the best tool in any given situation.

As if there's going to be some significant number of situations where you'd want to Dual Guard less, or remove the DG+ skill for something else. Dual Guard is ~99.9% gravy (100% for non-pedants).

[Tables]

A thousand pardons for not being specific enough to satisfy your demands for pedantry. Do you understand what I was getting at now, or do I need to break out my electron microscope?

You ARE joking right now? You can't seriously think it's my fault that you said something was the only way, and when questioned, decided you meant something else? This is no better than a LOLwen vanity argument at this point.

Edited September 16, 2013 by Tables

[shadowofchaos]

Well Interceptor's answer is pretty satisfactory to me.

He himself has admitted that Lunatic+ is a hard place to obtain Dual-Guard, because Great Knight has no way to negate counter without simply unequipping your weapon.

Getting them to Level 15 is a pain under that circumstance unless you're grinding on DLC.

*BUT*, if you do happen to have learned the skill... It *IS* that good. Luna+ REALLY wrecks your face only second to counter.

Especially when they start having Hawkeye OR any hit boosting skills... and hit increased forges.

Edited September 16, 2013 by shadowofchaos

[Interceptor]

You ARE joking right now? You can't seriously think it's my fault that you said something was the only way, and when questioned, decided you meant something else? This is no better than a LOLwen vanity argument at this point.

At the time of this posting, you seem to be the only one who didn't appear to understand what my point was, and got stuck in the weeds on the particulars of something that wasn't actually relevant to the question. I just want to make sure that we've satisfied whatever OCD requirements exist in order for you to comprehend where I am coming from. Do we need to have a three-paragraph throwdown about the strange edge cases where we wouldn't WANT to Dual Guard? I can go get my calculator.

[Tables]

At the time of this posting, you seem to be the only one who didn't appear to understand what my point was, and got stuck in the weeds on the particulars of something that wasn't actually relevant to the question. I just want to make sure that we've satisfied whatever OCD requirements exist in order for you to comprehend where I am coming from. Do we need to have a three-paragraph throwdown about the strange edge cases where we wouldn't WANT to Dual Guard? I can go get my calculator.

You know what? I actually did some calculations on avoid vs. Dual Guard. I even made the unreasonable assumption that Hawkeye is a hidden skill, i.e. your avoid techniques are completely oblivious to it's existence, which obviously unfairly baggages Avoid. Guess what? Avoid skills like Avoid+10 still work better than Dual Guard does for reasonable levels of enemy hit, up until perhaps late game. I was even contemplating posting it here (I was doing it primarily for my own curiousity). But since you apparently can't form an argument without insulting people, heck, suggesting they have mental health issues, which is deeply offensive, not to mention it being less of an argument and more of a tirade on a point that nobody was even contesting which you simply felt the need to insult me during for reasons I simply can't understand, because of that, I'm not going to bother posting the numbers. I'll just keep them for personal reference.

[Elieson]

You know what? I actually did some calculations on avoid vs. Dual Guard. I even made the unreasonable assumption that Hawkeye is a hidden skill, i.e. your avoid techniques are completely oblivious to it's existence, which obviously unfairly baggages Avoid. Guess what? Avoid skills like Avoid+10 still work better than Dual Guard does for reasonable levels of enemy hit, up until perhaps late game. I was even contemplating posting it here (I was doing it primarily for my own curiousity). But since you apparently can't form an argument without insulting people, heck, suggesting they have mental health issues, which is deeply offensive, not to mention it being less of an argument and more of a tirade on a point that nobody was even contesting which you simply felt the need to insult me during for reasons I simply can't understand, because of that, I'm not going to bother posting the numbers. I'll just keep them for personal reference.

<Ignoring the upcoming Tables Vs Interceptor battle>

I assume that with lower Def values and generally lower support ranks across the board, DG+ is less effective early game and slightly more effective late game, in most cases, due to (non-Hawkeye) units having 60-90 displayed hit for a while. Avoid+10 cuts out somewhere like 15-20% of a hit chance until those values skyrocket or plummet post-valmish.

DG+ still holds 10%. Avoid+ stacks with skills like Tantivy and --Door Fighter, making it a more reliable dodge tank option for non-Apotheosis battles. My MasterSeal-less Tier-1 run relied heavily on that, due to lower Def values for virtually everyone until around ch20, (except for Donny who rams his def cap hard)

Edited September 16, 2013 by Elieson

[Interceptor]

[...] Avoid skills like Avoid+10 still work better than Dual Guard does for reasonable levels of enemy hit, up until perhaps late game.

Yes, Avoid is arguably better, except in perhaps that circumstance where Dual Guard is at its most important phase in the first place: where enemy mt has grown to the point where Luna+ is going to carve huge chunks out of your max-DEF badasses.

If my sarcasm isn't getting through here, let me know.

I was even contemplating posting it here (I was doing it primarily for my own curiousity). But since you apparently can't form an argument without insulting people [...]

I don't mean to be overly pedantic here, but surely you mean "won't"? I mean, you have no idea what I'm capable of, after all.

[...] because of that, I'm not going to bother posting the numbers. I'll just keep them for personal reference.

You're conflicted, I get it, and I wouldn't want to be the reason for information to stay hidden. In order to resolve the situation, where you want to share the information but also want to be petty, maybe you can put it into spoiler tags labeled "INTERCEPTURD DO NOT READ" and I'll promise not to click on it.

Edited September 16, 2013 by Interceptor

[Airship Canon]

Not in the late game. Early/mid game it's something of a help as it's a 10% chance to not take damage which is nice.

Dual Guards are nice and all, but...from what I've seen and done, 2 things:

1. You shouldn't be getting attacked. Outside of say, Anna and her Vantage+, the enemy should be dead before they can swing on player phase and on enemy phase, Vantage (See point 2) or being out of range kicks in.

2. Any damage you take should be on your terms. Which means not taking it is irrelevant, or in fact, detrimental.

Edited September 16, 2013 by Airship Canon

[euklyd]

Not in the late game. Early/mid game it's something of a help as it's a 10% chance to not take damage which is nice.

Dual Guards are nice and all, but...from what I've seen and done, 2 things:

1. You shouldn't be getting attacked. Outside of say, Anna and her Vantage+, the enemy should be dead before they can swing on player phase and on enemy phase, Vantage (See point 2) or being out of range kicks in.

2. Any damage you take should be on your terms. Which means not taking it is irrelevant, or in fact, detrimental.

Do you mean late-game or post-game?

Because I was under the impression that late-game is still plenty hard and you won't have control.

EDIT: Assuming L+, since that's what was being discussed earlier.

Edited September 16, 2013 by Euklyd

[Interceptor]

I think that Apotheosis has become Awakening's version of "let's compare units at max level and come to conclusions".

When you play Lunatic+, you have to deal with a lot of those busted skills for the entire game, not just a handful of Turns in a postgame map. DG+ is a breath of fresh air if you can make it happen.

[Tables]

On Luna+ late game, at least as best I understand it, you really won't have that much control. Chapter 22 onwards generally consists of 30+ enemies rushing you, all armed with double forged weapons, hit +20, and two Luna+ skills. Thanks to Counter and the like, it's hard to even run 'reliable' setups like VV tanking, even if you did have the stats for it. You're gonna have to take some hits outside of your control, and it's very likely you're going to have to take at least some risks - dodging/Dual Guarding at least one attack, killing a certain enemy with DS/crit/proc, maybe even chancing certain reinforcements not having specific skills in a really dire situation.