-Cynthia- Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 Yes it does. Canon Sues can be very tricky to spot if in the hands of a crafty writer, but sometimes...just sometimes, they happen. They are usually the mouthpieces of the author though. Twilight is the best example of a Canon Sue because Bella is actually deliberately written so the reader could slip into her shoes. But the blathering about Edward is all Meyer. Ephraim gets really close, but hes more of a flat character (especially compared to his sister and Lyon) and everyone loves him anyway. Other than his Leeroy Jenkins style, its hard to find actual character traits in Ephraim. Seems to me that they wrote Eirika's story first and then decided it would be neat to have Ephraim in the spotlight after the fact. She could be. Daenerys from ASOIAF/Game of Thrones reminds me a little bit of Micaiah. Daenerys is a deconstruction of the Messiah/Savior/Lost Princess tropes and concepts. Her and Micaiah's arcs have a lot of similarity up until Part 4 of Micaiah's story. (thats where shit just goes out the fucking window.) Nobody to Savior, liberates areas, wins some allies, are forced to do things against their moral codes, etc. (even their hair color is the same) But unlike Dany, Micaiah gets hammered with horrible writing near the end of the story. Its rushed, badly executed, and just not pleasant. We can blame the writers for this because Micaiah's story could have been really fucking cool if more effort was put in near the end. Part 4...just...goddammit Part 4!!!! At least we don't have to see Micaiah going gaga over blue bearded mercenaries :) But yeah while I like Radiant Dawn's story, they kinda flubbed up Part 4 pretty hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy_One Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 Canon Sue's are indeed hard to spot, but they do exist. In my eyes the biggest 'mainstream' Mary Sue is Brian Griffin from Family Guy. He's shown as almost always right in everything, even claiming that God doesn't exist, despite being the one to slap some sense into Peter when God inflicted the plagues upon the family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Laufeyson Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 At least we don't have to see Micaiah going gaga over blue bearded mercenaries :) But yeah while I like Radiant Dawn's story, they kinda flubbed up Part 4 pretty hard. LOL!!!! Im glad they didnt have a Micaiah/Ike love story. That would have been the worst. RD's story is awesome until Part 4. Canon Sue's are indeed hard to spot, but they do exist. In my eyes the biggest 'mainstream' Mary Sue is Brian Griffin from Family Guy. He's shown as almost always right in everything, even claiming that God doesn't exist, despite being the one to slap some sense into Peter when God inflicted the plagues upon the family. Another example is Lestat from Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles. Dude could do no wrong and often acted as Rice's mouthpiece especially after the series jumped the shark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Banzai Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 Canon Sue's are indeed hard to spot, but they do exist. In my eyes the biggest 'mainstream' Mary Sue is Brian Griffin from Family Guy. He's shown as almost always right in everything, even claiming that God doesn't exist, despite being the one to slap some sense into Peter when God inflicted the plagues upon the family. you know nothing jon snowy_one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Laufeyson Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 I dont watch Family Guy, but havent they been toning Brian down a bit because people started hating him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skynstein Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 Yes it does. Canon Sues can be very tricky to spot if in the hands of a crafty writer, but sometimes...just sometimes, they happen. They are usually the mouthpieces of the author though. Twilight is the best example of a Canon Sue because Bella is actually deliberately written so the reader could slip into her shoes. But the blathering about Edward is all Meyer. Yeah, the whole Edward thing is the most annoying thing about Twilight. No one can possibly be this wonderful. But I'm still Team Edward because vampires (even if sparkling and vegetarian), and because Robert Pattinson actually did a good job with the character in the movies IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy_One Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 (edited) I dont watch Family Guy, but havent they been toning Brian down a bit because people started hating him? As I understand it they did. I stopped watching at 'Road to the multiverse' though as that episode was the straw that finally broke the camels back for me. I can take the anti-religious jokes, I see them all the time on the internet, but that clip, in my eyes, was just outright childish and ignorant (even if you hate Christians, why would you think removing it would result in a scientific utopia as opposed to the nordic religion taking over or something? It's not like Darwin would have been born earlier or something). Most of the straws came from the fact that Peter is such an ass though and the only character I could actually find myself rooting for on anything resembling a constant basis was Meg. I still watch American Dad (though it's gone downhill) simply cause it's characters are actually a bit likable. Steve is generally enjoyable, Stan usually at least means well, Francine is at least likable/tries, Klaus is lovable just because of how much he gets shoved to the side, and Roger is... well... both the most annoying and funniest character on the show. When they do him right, he's AMAZING! Stewie just ended up being too much of a genius to be interesting. Edit: Forgot. Hayley is actually... okay. She's still a little too right, but she does at least try to get along with her father. That's why I like the show more. In general they seem more focused on family than Family Guy. Edited October 25, 2013 by Snowy_One Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButteredToast Posted October 25, 2013 Author Share Posted October 25, 2013 As I understand it they did. I stopped watching at 'Road to the multiverse' though as that episode was the straw that finally broke the camels back for me. I can take the anti-religious jokes, I see them all the time on the internet, but that clip, in my eyes, was just outright childish and ignorant (even if you hate Christians, why would you think removing it would result in a scientific utopia as opposed to the nordic religion taking over or something? It's not like Darwin would have been born earlier or something). Thank you! This is why I resort to South Park. That show makes fun of everything and everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy_One Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 It's not that they make fun of everything and everyone, it's that they do it while actually focusing on the humor first and foremost. If they make fun of something it's because there is a joke to be made, not because of anything else. Sure, they don't always hit, and it could easily be argued that they're not even that good of a show (though I very much disagree), but to them humor comes first and foremost. There is a reason Team America is one of my favorite movies and it's because the only thing that mattered was fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NinjaMonkey Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 Cordelia, because apparently she's "Little Miss Perfect". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fala Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 Cordelia, because apparently she's "Little Miss Perfect". This. OH. MY. GAWD. Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Cynthia- Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 Non-Lord characters are usually exempt from being Sues just because they're not important enough. Importance to plot is a pretty key component in most cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJWalker Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 Cordelia, because apparently she's "Little Miss Perfect". Nope, she's just a terribly written character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Laufeyson Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 Yeah, the whole Edward thing is the most annoying thing about Twilight. No one can possibly be this wonderful. But I'm still Team Edward because vampires (even if sparkling and vegetarian), and because Robert Pattinson actually did a good job with the character in the movies IMO. I think the Twilight books would have been fun if they were more like Choose Your Own Adventure books. What if you chose the ending where Bella tells Edward to fuck off and gets with Jacob? Or if the reader could decide Bella tell everyone except her father, to fuck off and just live her damn life? The biggest crime Twilight committed isnt really Bella being the Sue as much as it took a relatively interesting take on vampires and the supernatural, but failed to do anything awesome with it. You know who's pretty much a Canon Sue in the video game world? Citan Uzuki from Xenogears. This guy...wow...this guy. If you played the game, you may know what i mean. He just...freaking knows everything ever, meddles endlessly, even to the point where it looks like hes a bad guy at one point in the game. Only ONE character ever calls him out on his shit and its extremely short lived. Funnily enough, this ended up working. Citan is still a pretty cool character despite it all, and its a load of fun to point out what a ginormous asshole he is. (link contains game spoilers) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skynstein Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 Cordelia, because apparently she's "Little Miss Perfect". There's a fatal flaw in your argument. I hope you realize it before it's too late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy_One Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 (edited) Non-Lord characters are usually exempt from being Sues just because they're not important enough. Importance to plot is a pretty key component in most cases. Indeed. In general the single most defining trait of a canon sue (in my eyes at least) is that the plot ends up revolving around them no matter what they do or to whom. They don't need special powers, they don't need to 'break' the rules, the plot just *has* to revolve around them. See, here's the problem. Jesus is the biggest 'Mary Sue' ever if you look at traits alone. He is a confusing half-blood (Half human half diety? Full deity? Fully human indwelt? Almost no one knows), his birth was literally heralded by the stars above and the arrival of three men who, despite not even knowing his name and using a feeding trough for donkeys as his crib, instantly bow down before him and shower him with wealth. He either could do no wrong or never had to fully deal with the consequences of his actions (depending on how you see the gnostic gospels). There was over twenty 'books' setting up his appearance and, despite living on it for a mere 33 years, the entirety of the Earth's existence before and after his life is defined by it. However, here is the key difference. The world doesn't revolve around Jesus or, rather, if it revolves around him it's in the same way the Earth revolves around the center of the galaxy. While Jesus is certainly important, plenty of other people exist in the Bible who have their own plots, lives, rises, falls, all without having to deal one bit with Jesus. The same can't be said for Bella. The whole reason the books exist, the whole reason the fighting in the books exist, the whole reason anything in the series even happens is because of her. At most maybe a few very minor things don't concern her, but that's 'at most'. Even in Harry Potter, Harry isn't anywhere near as big a Mary Sue since he's only *part* of the center, albet a huge one. Other characters go about and are allowed to have their lives happen without interference from Harry. In fact, He-whose-name-I-can't-spell is much closer to the *actual* Mary Sue since he not only set the plot in motion for his own desires before Harry was even born, but a lot of the world revolves around the fear of him. If Jesus was a character in FE, just a character, divine blood and everything, but just one of those guys you recruit in the final chapters who just happen to need to tag along with you, he wouldn't be a Mary Sue. If the whole reason for everything happening is him, he would be though. Edit: Actually, you know what would be interesting? A 'canon-sue' who realized that reality was warping about her to fulfill her every wish, no matter how fleeting or petty. When she has fights with friends they wind up getting hit by cars only to be revived or replacement friends to come along the moment after. When she sees something cool and even wanting it to be real in the slightest it happens, and she ends up realizing just how horrible she's making things. She can't kill herself or remove her powers, but she realizes it's her fault that entire realities have become twisted and maligned, so she cuts herself off from reality entirely by putting herself in a padded white room and the entire story is told from the viewpoint of a psychologist trying to see what's wrong with her. Edited October 26, 2013 by Snowy_One Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButteredToast Posted October 27, 2013 Author Share Posted October 27, 2013 And this is the point where we'll have to stop. I have made the mistake of asking this question, not knowing how this will blow up, and I now realize why Fox is so annoyed by this. I'm going to politely ask you guys to stop posting, and come to an agreement that the term Mary Sue can be varied in many different ways. I'm sorry that I even posted this in the first place. And I wish for it to end now. Thank you guys for the feedback. This has certainly been a lesson well learned, even if I had to learn it the hard way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balcerzak Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 Locked on request. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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