Anti-rape clothing

[Loki Laufeyson]

I don't think that's necessarily blaming the victim so much as acknowledging that there are factors that you can control, however small, which play a part in whether you become a victim.

I suppose it would be akin to the oft-repeated contrarian point to this, which is along the lines of "you shouldn't wear moneybags when walking around crime-ridden neighborhoods." It is not precisely analogous, but I think the point is valid. I subscribe to a guy on Youtube that has some nice science vids, he had a bit of a series discussing this and one of them may be pertinent:

This is actually the problem with social justice crusaders in general. (what the video is addressing.)

[FionordeQuester]

This is actually the problem with social justice crusaders in general. (what the video is addressing.)

Lots of heart, but not a ton of brains?

[Loki Laufeyson]

Lots of heart, but not a ton of brains?

Yes. Logic and common sense tends to go out the window when social justice is going on. There is rarely a middle ground and double standards are thrown around like confetti. Its kinda depressing.

[FionordeQuester]

Yes. Logic and common sense tends to go out the window when social justice is going on. There is rarely a middle ground and double standards are thrown around like confetti. Its kinda depressing.

In a way, it's kind of to be expected, considering just how complicated issues like this are. You don't have the time, inclination, or perhaps even the ability to truly get informed of everything...yet you want to help, so you just go along on a bandwagon, even if the ideas people are feeding you aren't particularly well thought out.

Edited November 14, 2013 by FionordeQuester

[Paulina]

and imho it's pretty shitty to blame rape on the victim by saying "hey maybe if you didn't dress like a whore you wouldn't have gotten raped!"

+1. Hulk Paulina smash rape culture.

Regarding the product, while I was pretty skeptical at first, I thought the product design seemed pretty original. It seemed like they put quite a bit of thought into it. My biggest concern is violence against the victim when the attacker can't get the underwear off.

That being said, the biggest step toward "rape prevention" is widespread social campaigns like Vancouver did back in 2011. Rape and sexual assault allegedly dropped 10% in that city after the campaign was implemented.

(For my part, I wanna order a shirt that says "Don't teach my daughter rape prevention" on the front, and on the back, "Teach your son not to rape." Then be the sober killjoy at drunken college parties, woo!)

[Esau of Isaac]

Except rape barely ever has any correlation to what the victim is wearing, at all. Did you miss the part where it was stated that rape is most often not perpetrated by strangers but by acquaintances instead.

Edit: I understand where the video is coming from, really, but I don't think what you said quite applies in this case.

No I didn't. I am well aware and considered adding an addendum but in the interest of following with the assumption that this clothing is relevant in the first place I responded with what I thought was suitable. I believe we are supposed to be concentrating on the cases in which rape occurs beyond those most common, i.e. dating scenes.

Though Thunderf00t did comment beyond clothing and also upon attitude, arguing that a woman who seems more vulnerable and/or fearful is more likely to be attacked compared to one that seems prepared to defend herself.

[FionordeQuester]

Though Thunderf00t did comment beyond clothing and also upon attitude, arguing that a woman who seems more vulnerable and/or fearful is more likely to be attacked compared to one that seems prepared to defend herself.

That is the truth. Predators don't tend to like it when they get wounded trying to catch their prey. Instead, they look for easier targets.

Edited November 14, 2013 by FionordeQuester

[Rehab]

I'm not sure that these articles of clothing are much related to body language, though, as IIRC at least some of them can be worn as undershirts.

There are certain situational types of rapists that this would have little affect on, sure, like somebody using blackmail/social coercion, or straight-up unambiguous physical threats, or everyone's nightmare rapist image who would devote an adrenaline rush to ripping somebody's clothes off, but not all rapes go down like that. A person who just starts trying to feel up and kiss somebody without being asked, or a drunken/high makeout in danger of going too far? Not totally ___proof, but I think it's reasonable to say it might be successful in serving as an obstacle to something like that. I couldn't say for sure until the thing hits the market and we have something resembling results to look at, but I think it comes off as at least an interesting idea.

I also think it's no substitute for "teaching guys not to rape," (and I basically mean trying to change the culture surrounding the issues of sex and consent (and the opinions people have of that culture) there, for the record, not just telling people "don't be a dickwolf"), but I don't see a huge problem offering it as a problem, myself. If they were to market it like "[LADIES,] YOU NEED TO OWN THIS PRODUCT TO LAY ANY CLAIM TO BASIC HUMAN DIGNITY, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER IT SEES ACTION IN, AND/OR SUCCEEDS AT, ITS INTENDED PURPOSE," or something, then yeah, that'd be dirty on multiple levels, but when I saw the pitch a couple days ago, it seemed to me like it was coming from a relatively conscientious/understanding perspective, RE fear of harassment/sexual assault. Did you guys hear something in it that made you think otherwise?

With regard to the Thunderf00t video (man, I remember when that guy didn't talk about feminism, like, at all. I miss that), his points on body language and whatever aren't totally devoid of merit or anything, but I get this kind of weasely discomfort when he starts talking about "thinking like an adult" and "being responsible for what is within one's control."

The idea that somebody can do things to help possibly prevent somebody else doing something awful and unjust and very likely likely traumatizing to them? Okay, I guess that's something that might be good to take note of.

The insinuation that the former shares any "responsibility" (that is, that they could be said to be even a little bit accountable) for that awful unjust traumatizing thing being done to them by another person (without whom nothing could have happened)?

I'm sort of curious how he got into that conversation in the first place, having not watched the former video yet.

[Steampunk]

It's like someone tried to make chastity belts chic and failed hard. Points for effort but not much else.

[Paulina]

If they were to market it like "[LADIES,] YOU NEED TO OWN THIS PRODUCT TO LAY ANY CLAIM TO BASIC HUMAN DIGNITY, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER IT SEES ACTION IN, AND/OR SUCCEEDS AT, ITS INTENDED PURPOSE," or something, then yeah, that'd be dirty on multiple levels, but when I saw the pitch a couple days ago, it seemed to me like it was coming from a relatively conscientious/understanding perspective, RE fear of harassment/sexual assault. Did you guys hear something in it that made you think otherwise?

The CAPS part made me chuckle. X) Yeah, I get you Rehab. I thought they marketed it with a very empathetic, conscientious tone too. I didn't hear anything in the video that made me think otherwise. It was just my inner cynic going "Eeeh, not sure this is a step in the right direction..."

[Esau of Isaac]

With regard to the Thunderf00t video (man, I remember when that guy didn't talk about feminism, like, at all. I miss that), his points on body language and whatever aren't totally devoid of merit or anything, but I get this kind of weasely discomfort when he starts talking about "thinking like an adult" and "being responsible for what is within one's control."

I would agree to some degree, at least with regard to how it is presented it seems as though he does overplay the control to which a person is assumed to have in the situation. I can't say whether that's bad wording on his part or a different valuation, but I still feel it's a welcome idea to keep in mind.

The idea that somebody can do things to help possibly prevent somebody else doing something awful and unjust and very likely likely traumatizing to them? Okay, I guess that's something that might be good to take note of.

The insinuation that the former shares any "responsibility" (that is, that they could be said to be even a little bit accountable) for that awful unjust traumatizing thing being done to them by another person (without whom nothing could have happened)?

I'm sort of curious how he got into that conversation in the first place, having not watched the former video yet.

The former video explained mostly what this one did, basically. It was less a video in his defense and more one concentrating on the arguments. He's been harassed personally and in RL on account of these, it's happened before with religious radicalists when he made similar critical videos but social justice warriors are more the rage these days and far more tech savvy.