So how and which support skills work exactly?

[Interceptor]

DSup+ isn't even good in the main game though.

That's cool man, that's cool. You'll want to tell it to the guy who says that DS+ was good, though; I'm just the guy who said that he liked it.

Firstly there's it's limitations on use - at the back it only affects the person at the front, at the front it only affects yourself and the person at the front in adjacent pairs.

It's actually even more limiting than that, since DS+ doesn't help the people who already have Support partners. Only the standard bonuses apply in the case where DS+ is on the Lead unit, and there's an adjacent Pair.

Secondly hit still rarely matters, dodge still rarely matters, 5 avoid and 5 crit is kind of alright but considering how often it's not affecting more than one person, is pretty meh.

It depends on the circumstances. I like it because I'm playing modes where the stats actually matter, it gives you an edge, and Valkyrie is a good class just in its own right. It also allows you to put two people together who don't actually support. For example, if I need Miriel to operate independently from her spouse and child, but want some support bonuses and a little extra SPD, I can throw Say'ri on her and be good to go.

suboptimal skill

Dual Support+ is very frequently competing with either an empty slot, or a less useful skill like +2 [something]. This is one of those things that's technically true, but are whocares.jpg in reality.

And of course, the limitation to Valkries hardly helps matters, since that means pretty much only Maribelle can get to obtain and use the skill for any reasonable amount of time.

This is a little bit hyperbolic. Three of the four basic Troubadours (Lissa, Maribelle, Miriel) can get there in reasonable time (lulz at Cherche, though I've never tried it in truth), and it can also be passed to children. One of my bigger regrets in my L+ run was not being able to give DS+ to Laurent, who absolutely could have used it. C'est la vie.

[Tables]

Yeah, fair, I agree with most of what you're saying, except really this:

This is a little bit hyperbolic. Three of the four basic Troubadours (Lissa, Maribelle, Miriel) can get there in reasonable time (lulz at Cherche, though I've never tried it in truth), and it can also be passed to children. One of my bigger regrets in my L+ run was not being able to give DS+ to Laurent, who absolutely could have used it. C'est la vie.

And, well, I guess it depends on how willing you are to forego those character's better options, and use valuable resources (early SSs)

For Lissa, going through another staff using class is pretty slow and annoying, so reclassing to Troubadour isn't really something you want to do. There's some options which are okay (10 Cleric > 10 Troubadour > Valkrie or X Cleric > 15 Sage > Valkrie) but they each have things about them which personally put me off wanting to do them (in the former case, it's using an early second seal into a class whose stafflocked. In the latter, it's the direct opportunity cost of not going Dark Flier as well as the issue I said anyway - you're hitting 15 Valkrie pretty late in the game).

For Miriel, there's kind of similar issues: She has Sorcerer access, which is really powerful, but even if you don't care about that, reclassing to a staff locked class is still kind of annoying and otherwise you need to get to level 10 in a promoted class (and probably 15, for the skill), which is annoying.

Cherche, I guess can at least go straight into Troubadour if you have a spare SS. I've got no idea how viable that is.

Perhaps there's a sensible path through to Valkrie that I'm missing that'll get you to DSup before you start getting towards lategame (say, by around chapter 16-18ish)?

[WrathN'Resolve]

I always send cherche through wylord, then valkyrie, get the skill, switch back to wylord (retains mods from before she switched) as to make Gerome's bases passable, finally getting gerome (I'm gonna start getting vaike! gerome and zerk) further accentuates Gerome's massive potential as a physical support, because as a galeforceless unit unable to wvv, nostank, and has the highest strength cap, it's almost criminal to not give him the only way to completely avoid pavise+ and make him do full damage on the backseat with

ds+, Axefaire, aggressor, deliverer, (LB) move +1 (I won't need pass, When near enemies, he won't be in front, and will be used exclusively to scale the map.

Miriel doesn't pass anything down anything important to laurent (at least the way I use him), as if his dad is gregor, than he'll get wvv, armsthrift, and lb(filler)

i reccomend this by being supported by dark flier henry!cynthia with dualguard+, Ds+(lb), anathema, galeforce, Tomefaire

Lissa will pass down galeforce, but as THE SECOND BEST PARENT UNIT (cordelia), she gets GF, Ds+, tomefaire, lb, and a filler.....bond?

all opinions, and I have clinical ocd, so I like to keep things tidy.

Edited November 23, 2013 by WrathN'Resolve

[Interceptor]

[...] reclassing to Troubadour isn't really something you want to do.

Fascinating; I thought that I wanted to reclass to Troubadour so that I could get DS+ on Miriel or Lissa, but I guess I don't? This whole time, I thought that I could do whatever I desired. Is my whole life a lie?

Perhaps there's a sensible path through to Valkrie that I'm missing that'll get you to DSup before you start getting towards lategame (say, by around chapter 16-18ish)?

What's "sensible"? I think it's sensible to break healing staves over my knee repeatedly in earlygame Lunatic+ in an attempt to get people set up for the rest of the game. I also have no problem blowing Rescue/Ward staff charges on useless maneuvers in order to level someone up more quickly. This results in pretty high level staffers due to the separate EXP pool.

DS+ would be nice to have in Prologue, but as it is, it's also fine for me to get it around the time where mooks start getting free +HIT skills, and where promoted enemies start getting pretty dangerous. Maribelle would be no problem, Miriel I whiffed due to poor planning (she went through a reclass she didn't need to), and Lissa has two workable paths.

[Tables]

Fascinating; I thought that I wanted to reclass to Troubadour so that I could get DS+ on Miriel or Lissa, but I guess I don't? This whole time, I thought that I could do whatever I desired. Is my whole life a lie?

Stop acting dumb. Unless you're actually serious, in which case: read definition 6. Then stop acting dumb anyway because even if you didn't know that definition of the word 'you' (somehow), you still knew what I meant.

[WrathN'Resolve]

Stop acting dumb. Unless you're actually serious, in which case: read definition 6. Then stop acting dumb anyway because even if you didn't know that definition of the word 'you' (somehow), you still knew what I meant.

That wasn't him acting dumb, he was just doing as the smart man does, and sarcastically expressing that not everyone shares your opinion.

After all, aren't there are many options on the "Table"?

[Elieson]

what realistic path is there for valk on a play through not featuring the utmost of turtle speed gameplay? I'd prefer to ram sage tomefaire, rather than valk for DS+.

Edited November 25, 2013 by The Protown SK

[WrathN'Resolve]

what realistic path is there for valk on a play through not featuring the utmost of turtle speed gameplay? I'd prefer to ram sage tomefaire, rather than valk for DS+.

Paragon says hello

Going through 3 upper level classes isn't really work, It just takes about an hour per class(dlc), cut that in half with paragon.

[Elieson]

But by that time the game is [or is extremely close to] beaten and all you are doing is training for Apo.

[WrathN'Resolve]

But by that time the game is [or is extremely close to] beaten and all you are doing is training for Apo.

so? the main game is easy enough, and the only bosses that should really be able to survive your onslaught realistically are walhart(total badass), gangrel, validar (dragonskin op), and Grima. and If you can kill them, then you should've already been able to beat their chapters easily enough.

[Interceptor]

Stop acting dumb. Unless you're actually serious, in which case: read definition 6. Then stop acting dumb anyway because even if you didn't know that definition of the word 'you' (somehow), you still knew what I meant.

This isn't about definitions of words, this is about my decisions not being subject to your approval. I've been pretty clear about my position on DS+, and you persist in talking about efficiency, and what one "should" do. We can keep batting this around until you learn an important life lesson about human interaction; I've got some free time.

what realistic path is there for valk on a play through not featuring the utmost of turtle speed gameplay? I'd prefer to ram sage tomefaire, rather than valk for DS+.

You can do whatever you want. Raise your Sage and be merry. There isn't much reason to raise a Valkyrie on a Carebear mode where nearly anything will work, and you can just mash START to solve problems.

[Tables]

I've honestly got no idea what you're trying to argue any more. Ever since you made things personal I've been scratching my head trying to work out what your stance is, but I still don't really have a clue. I don't like being dragged into internet arguments with people, especially when they're like you and seem to love starting arguments over points the other person isn't even disagreeing with, which you've tried to do to me before, until I got sick of it.

[Interceptor]

I've honestly got no idea what you're trying to argue any more.

Consider the possibility that I wasn't making an argument in the first place. This poster just weighed in on his personal preference. My first post here basically just says "I kinda like DS+ and here's why".

[Czar_Yoshi]

I like DSup+ because I can get it in Lunatic(+) without wasting enemy exp and pass it to children to make building supports easier. I then ditch it when I've got all the A supports I need and have something better to use instead. Does anyone have a problem with that?