Delayed the making of so many decisions I might have gotten into trouble

[Gaia]

Again, while you may have a point, imo it's not really enough to justify putting up with a mono-bow class. At least the other bow classes had an alternate weapon for use if things went wrong.

It's not like you can switch weapons during EP. If you end PP on an attack with a bow, it would make no difference. If you're going to use a bow class to use bows, use a class that use bows the most effectively.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Then we are at an impasse. I still think that one specific enemy isn't enough to make them worth it - being good against one specific enemy doesn't excuse sucking it up and being nearly useless and/or outclassed against everything else.

One example isn't enough? Here's some more.

From Apo alone, Longbows allow poking of Thronie (often a threshold breaker), baiting of Anna (get her off the Throne), and being able to counterattack the waves of Longbow Snipers in Normal Apo that like to wreck plans (there aren't any Longbows in Secret). Additionally, Longbows are incredibly useful anywhere in Lunatic+ where you come up against a ranged enemy with Luna+ and enough bulk to prevent an OHKO, especially those with Hawkeye/Vantage+ as their second skill. In the regular difficulties, it can save you damage anywhere you can't OHKO a ranged enemy as well, and is useful for poking Gangrel, Walhart 2, Validar 3 (Hard and above), and flat out destroying both Aversas. In Cht.17, it lets you attack over most of the walls and pick off the Longbow Snipers on the other side, and in Cht.16 it lets you attack foes on the mainland from the island in the bottom RHS. It's also good any time you want to feed a unit with a choke that's holding back ranged enemies.

Snipers do have a backup, it's called switching to the back of the pair. Snipers give good pairup boosts and are immune to the weapon triangle, as well as getting boosted damage on classes that are very common ingame without the low mt of Wind magic, making them very viable support units. Now, problems could arise if you get boxed in on a river with a non-swimming unit behind you and no Second Seals or other deployed units (which has actually happened to me before), but that's a very niche situation. There's also the issue of Bow exp being hard to get, but that happens to all Bow classes.

And variety is important- I often use some Assassins and Warriors as well as Snipers, but more often than not I just have them stick to Bows and just use them for their boosts or other stats.

Thanks a bunch for these useful bits of info! I was under the impression that even though infinite reclassing is possible, the speed with which you keep advancing through levels gets severely hindered once you reach the max IL. So I was trying to get it right the first time in order to avoid gargantuan efforts grinding them all the way they were supposed to ^^; but, since you say DLC will have that issue covered, I won't worry with this anymore.. :P

Gah.. this reminds me I need to get all the skills I want the children to inherit, and then remember the right moments I must have them "equipped".. anxiety is surely gonna run wild when I get there T_T

Even with a capped IL, grinding exp isn't that hard if you have the right DLC. LB3 in particular is good: it has 50 enemies, all but two of which auto-aggro (those two are Troubadours who will come to you anyway), there's a conveniently placed Gate to tank on (+3 Def, +20 Avo and Healing) and with Sol or some other form of self-healing, it's hard to get overwhelmed if your Avo is high enough. There are a couple of Legendary Weapons to worry about (not a problem unless you're a Wyvern, usually), but otherwise it's just a free pile of exp. You also get the Paragon skill from that map which doubles all exp gain, on Hard with your IL capped you're getting 16 exp per kill with it.

Inheritance: skills to be passed down are determined when you start the battle of whatever map the child is recruited in, except for Lucina whose skills are determined by whatever her mother has equipped at the end of Cht.13 (Chrom always passes her Aether whether he has it or not). All other children can be recruited whenever you like, so especially with DLC to catch them up there's no harm in waiting to recruit the other children until you have the skills you want to give them. Fortunately, the best skills to pass down are either extremely obvious or don't matter (in minmax), so there's not much to worry about about which ones to pick.

[Thor Odinson]

Honestly I've had plenty of good experiences going Paladin->GK with Sully in nogrind, including Lunatic. By the time she's done with Paladin she should have built enough personal speed to not care about the low GK class speed.

But I am very biased towards GK. I'd make everyone a GK if I could. Strong, tanky axes with 7 move? hell yeah sign me up

I don't play much postgame, though.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Thor Odinson

[Anacybele]

But I am very biased towards GK. I'd make everyone a GK if I could. Strong, tanky axes with 7 move? hell yeah sign me up

Oh, yeah, me too! I love Great Knights! Tanky powerhouse horse knights that can use the whole weapon triangle? Hell yeah! ^^

Edited February 20, 2014 by Anacybele

[Skynstein]

I don't like GK. Slow, less Mov than Paladin, murdered by magic, low Skl caps, vulnerable to anti-armor weaponry... That's way too many flaws to compensate for the ability to use axes.

[Sorin]

I don't like GK. Slow, less Mov than Paladin, murdered by magic, low Skl caps, vulnerable to anti-armor weaponry... That's way too many flaws to compensate for the ability to use axes.

The only good thing from GK is the skills. You'd have to baby the unit just to keep it alive most post game chapters. Hell, even the Valm arc on higher difficulties.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Sorin

[Anacybele]

By that logic, General is even worse. Which I agree of. :P

But I don't like Paladin as much because they can't take hits like Great Knights can and they're not that strong. There are way more physical weapon users out there than mages, and it's easy enough to have Great Knights avoid mages. While it's not so easy for Paladins to avoid getting crushed by powerhouse units like Great Knights. Mages can also usually be one-shotted by Great Knights. They're only a danger to Great Knights in groups.

Great Knights only really need to be wary of units carrying stuff like Hammers. And even then, they can usually smash the units that are able to use them too (Warriors, which have terrible defense, Generals, which are slower, so they'd get hit twice while Generals would only hit Great Knights once. Great Knight vs another Great Knight, however, is all simply down to who just happens to have higher speed or who attacks first).

Edited February 20, 2014 by Anacybele

[Skynstein]

The damage output of GK isn't that great. They have very high Str caps but they're very slow so they can only hit most targets once and they're usually doubled.

I'd certainly prefer the Mov Paladin has than the GK extra defense. If defense was such a good thing, Generals wouldn't be the worst class in the game. Plus Paladin is more versatile defensively, since they have more Res.

I've used both Sully and Stahl as GKs and they were, not surprisingly, very ineffective. Sully even more so. Sully was being owned as a GK on NORMAL for me. That's ridiculous. GK kills Stahl's Spd and makes him not be able to double anything unless you pair him with someone like Cordelia, which is like the only pair up option that gives him enough Spd. And even then, he will perform better as Paladin.

Also Ana, you'd be surprised at how easily Frederick can die to mages early game on higher difficulties. He can't wall mages for long on Hard, and Lunatic mages will eat him for breakfast. A Sorcerer is a way better tank than a GK or a General. And GKs can't OHKO everything if they can't double their enemies, so a Warrior WILL fight back and has a better chance of doing damage.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Malebolganone

[Shadow Mir]

It's not like you can switch weapons during EP. If you end PP on an attack with a bow, it would make no difference. If you're going to use a bow class to use bows, use a class that use bows the most effectively.

You say that as if they really are the most effective bow users. I wouldn't expect something you see as the most effective bow users to have so little going for them that they're outclassed at the one thing they can do - some one trick pony they are. You have a point that if you're ending a player phase with a bow, it doesn't matter, though.

One example isn't enough? Here's some more.

From Apo alone, Longbows allow poking of Thronie (often a threshold breaker), baiting of Anna (get her off the Throne), and being able to counterattack the waves of Longbow Snipers in Normal Apo that like to wreck plans (there aren't any Longbows in Secret). Additionally, Longbows are incredibly useful anywhere in Lunatic+ where you come up against a ranged enemy with Luna+ and enough bulk to prevent an OHKO, especially those with Hawkeye/Vantage+ as their second skill. In the regular difficulties, it can save you damage anywhere you can't OHKO a ranged enemy as well, and is useful for poking Gangrel, Walhart 2, Validar 3 (Hard and above), and flat out destroying both Aversas. In Cht.17, it lets you attack over most of the walls and pick off the Longbow Snipers on the other side, and in Cht.16 it lets you attack foes on the mainland from the island in the bottom RHS. It's also good any time you want to feed a unit with a choke that's holding back ranged enemies.

Snipers do have a backup, it's called switching to the back of the pair. Snipers give good pairup boosts and are immune to the weapon triangle, as well as getting boosted damage on classes that are very common ingame without the low mt of Wind magic, making them very viable support units. Now, problems could arise if you get boxed in on a river with a non-swimming unit behind you and no Second Seals or other deployed units (which has actually happened to me before), but that's a very niche situation. There's also the issue of Bow exp being hard to get, but that happens to all Bow classes.

And variety is important- I often use some Assassins and Warriors as well as Snipers, but more often than not I just have them stick to Bows and just use them for their boosts or other stats.

Hey, I'll admit, I can see where you're coming from, but I don't like snipers in this game, as I think their unimpressive caps and bow lock are dealbreakers. Also, as for fliers, most of the fliers you see in the game are wyverns that get rekt by pretty much anything magical.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Levant Caprice

[Roivann]

Hey, I'll admit, I can see where you're coming from, but I don't like snipers in this game, as I think their unimpressive caps and bow lock are dealbreakers.

You keep talking about unimpressive caps, but the Bow Knights' are even worse.

Edit: Warriors, Assassins. I'm an idiot.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Rollertoaster

[Shadow Mir]

I don't like GK. Slow, less Mov than Paladin, murdered by magic, low Skl caps, vulnerable to anti-armor weaponry... That's way too many flaws to compensate for the ability to use axes.

Me neither. Personally, it's get in for Luna, then get out ASAP.

You keep talking about unimpressive caps, but the Bow Knights' are even worse.

Edit: Warriors, Assassins. I'm an idiot.

I'm not going to deny Bow Knights having worse caps. However, they're not bowlocked, and that, in my book, is a big advantage over Sniper. Longbow and Double Bow usage has a very serious flaw to compensate for in bow-lock in a game where snipers are pretty bad (again because as usual, being a player phase oriented class means squat when enemy phase is more important 9 times out of 10), and imo, it's not enough.

[Roivann]

But being player-phase oriented or enemy-phase oriented doesn't mean squat when you attack with a bow. You're still stuck not being able to counterattack.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Rollertoaster

[Shadow Mir]

But being player-phase oriented or enempy-phase oriented doesn't mean squat when you attack with a bow. You're still stuck not being able to counterattack.

True, and that's exactly why bows are maligned so much. Also, I'll admit, I don't wind up using bows much in this game because I don't wind up using any bow classes much, either (excepting the DLC class); as it is, if I actually decided to put up with Sniper, it'd be for Bowfaire, not so much for longbows.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Levant Caprice

[Czar_Yoshi]

If BK's main selling point was not being Bowlocked, they'd be completely outclassed by Assassins. The real point of BK is that they're the only Bow class with 8 Mov, which can often come in handy on higher difficulties (the only other non-genderlocked 8 Mov class with a ranged weapon that doesn't hit Pavise is DK, and magic isn't Counterproof).

Anyway, GK vs Paladin: GKs aren't meant to be attackers. They're support units. GKs give high base Str/Def, +Mov, and with full weapon triangle control they don't have to worry about having low Hit thanks to not getting the support boost. Low Spd/Avo doesn't matter because they won't get attacked, weaknesses and bad Res doesn't matter, and their low Skl isn't too much of a problem because they can't proc anything anyway and support ranks matter far more than Skl for procing DSes. GKs also have the highest Str of any unit who gives +Mov, and can wield effective weapons for every single weakness.

But I don't like Paladin as much because they can't take hits like Great Knights can and they're not that strong. There are way more physical weapon users out there than mages, and it's easy enough to have Great Knights avoid mages. While it's not so easy for Paladins to avoid getting crushed by powerhouse units like Great Knights. Mages can also usually be one-shotted by Great Knights. They're only a danger to Great Knights in groups.

In LM prologue, there's a Mage who can often 2HKO Fred (depends on whether or not he has Mag+2). There's also a second Mage who can always 2HKO Fred. In Cht.1, there's a Hammer Fighter who can always OHKO Fred, and if you want to kill him first you have to get off your fort to rush him and then hope for an unusually strong DS. So no, I wouldn't call GKs very good tanks.

If defense was such a good thing, Generals wouldn't be the worst class in the game.

They aren't. That honor goes to Griffons (assuming we're talking promoted) who are axelocked with very bad caps and multiple weaknesses. Generals are good anywhere you need incredible Str combined with useable Skl (or Lances).

Edited February 21, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi

[Shadow Mir]

If BK's main selling point was not being Bowlocked, they'd be completely outclassed by Assassins. The real point of BK is that they're the only Bow class with 8 Mov, which can often come in handy on higher difficulties (the only other non-genderlocked 8 Mov class with a ranged weapon that doesn't hit Pavise is DK, and magic isn't Counterproof).

Anyway, GK vs Paladin: GKs aren't meant to be attackers. They're support units. GKs give high base Str/Def, +Mov, and with full weapon triangle control they don't have to worry about having low Hit thanks to not getting the support boost. Low Spd/Avo doesn't matter because they won't get attacked, weaknesses and bad Res doesn't matter, and their low Skl isn't too much of a problem because they can't proc anything anyway and support ranks matter far more than Skl for procing DSes. GKs also have the highest Str of any unit who gives +Mov, and can wield effective weapons for every single weakness.

In LM prologue, there's a Mage who can often 2HKO Fred (depends on whether or not he has Mag+2). There's also a second Mage who can always 2HKO Fred. In Cht.1, there's a Hammer Fighter who can always OHKO Fred, and if you want to kill him first you have to get off your fort to rush him and then hope for an unusually strong DS. So no, I wouldn't call GKs very good tanks.

They aren't. That honor goes to Griffons (assuming we're talking promoted) who are axelocked with very bad caps and multiple weaknesses. Generals are good anywhere you need incredible Str combined with useable Skl (or Lances).

Point taken on the 8 move. Incidentally, Bow Knights are also a +move pair up. That's something to take into consideration.

Also, WRT that last paragraph, that's excluding special classes like Taguel, right? And in what context are we talking about?

[Czar_Yoshi]

If I was including special classes, Villager would be at the bottom (Taguels have the benefit of giving Assassin-like pairup boosts combined with very early availability). The context is how often their selling points are worth using them for, both ingame and postgame. In Griffon's case, they're being the fastest Male flying class (they're still slow) and being the only class to give +Lck/Mov. Those aren't really worth a class, and it doesn't even have an availability advantage as a flier because everyone who can get/promote to it also has the stronger, lance using not-weak-to-beastkillers Wyvern Lord as an option.

Edited February 21, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi

[Airship Canon]

As a note, Griffon yields the best -breaker skill. And Deliverer if that's something you desire.

[Shadow Mir]

If I was including special classes, Villager would be at the bottom (Taguels have the benefit of giving Assassin-like pairup boosts combined with very early availability). The context is how often their selling points are worth using them for, both ingame and postgame. In Griffon's case, they're being the fastest Male flying class (they're still slow) and being the only class to give +Lck/Mov. Those aren't really worth a class, and it doesn't even have an availability advantage as a flier because everyone who can get/promote to it also has the stronger, lance using not-weak-to-beastkillers Wyvern Lord as an option.

I wasn't planning on including Villager for obvious reasons. And honestly, I can't see Griffons as worse than Taguels, who are stuck with piss weak weapons for the bulk of the game (you don't even see a Beaststone+ until Walhart's last stand), as well as rangelocked, which is never a good thing. And even if you wanted to play the Beastbane card, Beast Killers do the job better for the aforementioned reasons.

Edited February 21, 2014 by Levant Caprice

[Tyranny]

I thought about the switching! But then again, he's not marrying anyone.. so no S support x'D

I don't know if someone mentioned this already, but A rank supports give the same pair up bonuses as S ranks do so don't mind the S rank.

[Anacybele]

Anyway, GK vs Paladin: GKs aren't meant to be attackers. They're support units. GKs give high base Str/Def, +Mov, and with full weapon triangle control they don't have to worry about having low Hit thanks to not getting the support boost. Low Spd/Avo doesn't matter because they won't get attacked, weaknesses and bad Res doesn't matter, and their low Skl isn't too much of a problem because they can't proc anything anyway and support ranks matter far more than Skl for procing DSes. GKs also have the highest Str of any unit who gives +Mov, and can wield effective weapons for every single weakness.

Great Knight? More of a support unit than an attack unit? How is that the case when they have really high strength and defense and get an offensive skill in Luna? They're meant to tank physical attacks and be front-liners in the group for the most part. They're best at defending mages and healers so they aren't bombarded by physical weapons and can attack from behind. They just need to be wary of hammers. That's their only real weakness. No unit is without a weakness.

In LM prologue, there's a Mage who can often 2HKO Fred (depends on whether or not he has Mag+2). There's also a second Mage who can always 2HKO Fred. In Cht.1, there's a Hammer Fighter who can always OHKO Fred, and if you want to kill him first you have to get off your fort to rush him and then hope for an unusually strong DS. So no, I wouldn't call GKs very good tanks.

Well duh, they're not meant to tank magic. And Great Knights are crappy tanks simply because a couple of mages and one Fighter in the beginning of Lunatic threaten Frederick? Yeah, no. Read what I said above. And, that's the beginning of the game where you haven't trained anyone yet. Once Frederick has a nice defense stat in Great Knight, he should be able to take at least three hits from a hammer, even in Lunatic. I've only tested this in Normal mode, of course, but I've no doubt the same can hold true in Lunatic. Well, not taking some of the DLC into account, that is. Because obviously, a portion of those maps are crazy.

Also, sending even a Great Knight into that kind of danger in the beginning of the game is stupid. You have to have other units whittle them down a bit and THEN send Frederick in to finish the job. That way, Frederick takes no damage and his helpers take only a little. Lissa then heals whoever took the most damage while others heal up using a Vulnerary. And Frederick is fresh to go right away on the enemy phase.

Hey, maybe I should try Hard or Lunatic. I didn't know I was this smart. :P

[Skynstein]

They aren't. That honor goes to Griffons (assuming we're talking promoted) who are axelocked with very bad caps and multiple weaknesses. Generals are good anywhere you need incredible Str combined with useable Skl (or Lances).

You're right. When I was reclassing I was very surprised by Griffon Rider's bad caps. They aren't weak to Wyrmslayers though.

And Ana, high Def doesn't always mean you're a good tank... Just take a look at Pokémon, where bad typing can ruin even a great defensive mon. GK is weak to anti-armor and Beast Killer, and their Res is low. Trust me, I've had Frederick in some bad spots early due to mages being stronger than I anticipated. Biggest example is choke point north of where you start in Chapter 5. Ideally you want a strong unit to hold it, and Frederick is one of the better suited ones. But there are mages there which Frederick can't retaliate against unless you equip him with Javelins and they take a good chunk of his HP with each hit.

Edited February 21, 2014 by Malebolganone

[Roivann]

But they still lose out in the weapon triangle to wrymslayers. Plus, those aren't really common enough to be seen as a legitimate threat.

[Anacybele]

I thought beast killers were only effective against Taguel, Manaketes, and Wyvern/Griffon riders. Huh. And I never said Great Knights should be the ONLY front liners. Of course they'll need help when there are a bunch of mages about. That's where units like Paladins and Falcon Knights/Dark Fliers come in. They're great pair-up partners for Great Knights so they have a better chance of surviving those magic attacks and such due to Paladins and Peg knights having good res and decent speed.

I had Great Knight Freddy and Dark Flier Kelli paired up a lot, and those two could barely be touched by anything, despite Kelli's trashy defenses and Frederick's bad res. (Kelli's my Avatar, if anyone forgot lol)

[shadowofchaos]

Also, sending even a Great Knight into that kind of danger in the beginning of the game is stupid. You have to have other units whittle them down a bit and THEN send Frederick in to finish the job. That way, Frederick takes no damage and his helpers take only a little. Lissa then heals whoever took the most damage while others heal up using a Vulnerary. And Frederick is fresh to go right away on the enemy phase.

Hey, maybe I should try Hard or Lunatic. I didn't know I was this smart. :P

Ana, you really should just go play Hard or Lunatic. Stay away from skirmishes... stay away from the DLC... and stay away from your predetermined notions of unit roles.

All this shows is that you really don't know anything about how the higher modes work.

The way you're saying "I didn't know I was this smart" is just eating at me. Certain strategies are completely backwards with your bias towards Frederick.

The way you're "helping" people by having holes in your justifications from your normal playthrough isn't doing anyone any favors.

Edited February 21, 2014 by shadowofchaos

[Anacybele]

Ana, you really should just go play Hard or Lunatic. Stay away from skirmishes... stay away from the DLC... and stay away from your predetermined notions of unit roles.

All this shows is that you really don't know anything about how the higher modes work.

The way you're saying "I didn't know I was this smart" is just eating at me. Certain strategies are completely backwards with your bias towards Frederick.

The way you're "helping" people by having holes in your justifications from your normal playthrough isn't doing anyone any favors.

1. This debate is about Great Knights, not Frederick. Frederick just happens to be one of them.

2. You bashing me all the time for just trying to be NICE and saying that bias is behind everything I say doesn't do anyone any favors either.