How to improve Fire Emblem Awakening

[Moira]

Now this is a respectable opinion. The exact same about the Lunatic+ difficulty as the other guy.

And yet no bullcrap. No "buzzwords" that try to make you more "qualified" than you actual are. You're just simply stating what you think, why you think it, and without all the flawed extra baggage of speaking for other people.

Unfortunately every single word of mine was questioned extensively. and the buzzword and qualified jab is unnecessary and untrue.

As for why I bought Awakening, Fire Emblem games have consistently delivered quality and a lot of the new features were exciting. And who doesn't want a fresh batch of fe characters?

[Chiki]

Remake FE4 and name it Fire Emblem: Awakening.

[CT075]

without having read anything other than the OP i really have to say i disagree with most of it

as much as i loved fe4, i do not support turning awakening into fe4; fe4 already did that once and i don't want to just play a remake

i also disagree that the game requires balancing; i beat lunatic on my first runthrough of the game with no grinding/dlc whatsoever (there's a thread of it somewhere i cbf to dig it up rn) and i personally didn't find it particularly difficult past the first set of chapters (in which, of course, grinding is not an option anyway). from what i've played of lunatic+ grinding wasn't really helpful anyway (maybe that's because i cbf'd?) and the mode is meant to be insane anyway

if you have to grind to beat lunatic that's a sign that the game designers are better at this than you make it out to be; the alternatives are an easier game (in which grinding becomes even easier) or the same game where grinding isn't an option if you're stuck.

[Czar_Yoshi]

On the contrary, I'd love an official localization of FE4 on modern hardware.

The need for balancing revolves less around the enemies and more around playable characters. Lunatic+'s big issue is that there are a select few characters/classes who are very good at it, and the majority of the cast stinks for all but utility/decoy purposes.

[shadowofchaos]

Unfortunately every single word of mine was questioned extensively. and the buzzword and qualified jab is unnecessary and untrue.

As for why I bought Awakening, Fire Emblem games have consistently delivered quality and a lot of the new features were exciting. And who doesn't want a fresh batch of fe characters?

When you have an opinion, you back it up as much as is needed to have a respectable response from the average person.

When you go as far as to have the balls to say a statement such as a "failure on a business standpoint", you back up your statement/opinion with something other than baseless conjecture and personal preference. You have nothing to back up your statement regarding the business portion of it other than your assumption that they could have worked on something better.

What experience do you have on analyzing the business part of a feature of a game? What can you show? Can you show how terrible the mode is and how it negatively affected sales? Can you show how much of a waste of time it was creating said mode by showing a clearly superior alternative? What was the general response to the mode from a sample of people? Did you factor in bias?

All the things you have said so far are based on personal opinion.

You are free to have the opinion to state that you dislike Lunatic+. That they could have done something better with their time.

What you did was go beyond that and make a statement to exaggarate it and qualify your own opinion and personal experience.

You can believe yourself that it is honestly a business failure, but don't expect others to believe your statement if you can't back it up. You are putting that opinion in a post, and therefore subjecting it to criticism.

Hence, why I'm calling you out on it.

However, it seems you simply don't get it at all, and all that's going to result in this is bashing my head against the wall.

Pretty much, all you're doing is complaining with a flawed explanation of why the mode shouldn't have existed in preference of a vague "something" that could have taken its place.

Software development isn't as easy as replacing x amount of time by removing y feature for z feature.

My mind continues to be blown -- brains splattered on all interior walls -- by the people who advocate removing optional content for no other reason than personal preference.

Good Night.

Edited March 5, 2014 by shadowofchaos

[FionordeQuester]

Ergh, Shadow, I think he DOES get it, he just feels hurt is all. People are considerably less responsive when they're mad or upset after all. He probably already feels terrible, so I get where your coming from, but I don't think it's going to help.

EDIT: Shadow does have a point though. It'd be like if I went onto an LGBT forum and said "you know, I think it's a shame about gay men. I think they're more likely to have HIV and AIDS, but, that's just my opinion, you know?". I mean, it's my right to say it, but I'd best be careful if I can't back it up!

Edited March 5, 2014 by FionordeQuester

[Constable Reggie]

Jeez Shadow, that's a lot of lines just to put someone down.

I understand the basic idea that the time used to put something seemingly pointless in the game could have been used to better improve something else (like, say, adding a new class or something), but Lunatic+ (full disclaimer: I haven't played it, and have no intention to ever do so) just looks like Lunatic Mode + give every single enemy 2 extra random skills. It probably took them all of 5 seconds to implement it.

Using those 5 seconds to erase all of Olivia's lines would have made a better game

[Interceptor]

Jeez Shadow, that's a lot of lines just to put someone down.

And yet it doesn't compare to a two-page black hole of arguments, that basically amounted to nothing.

[...] but Lunatic+ (full disclaimer: I haven't played it, and have no intention to ever do so) just looks like Lunatic Mode + give every single enemy 2 extra random skills. It probably took them all of 5 seconds to implement it.

Well, I *have* played it, and the changes were a little more substantial than that. Not all of the extra skills are available right away (you don't have the full pool until Ch. 3), some bonus skills turn into replacements (Pavise for Pavise+ on Grima, for example), and they still need to add support for the mode in the UI.

[Constable Reggie]

Well, I *have* played it, and the changes were a little more substantial than that. Not all of the extra skills are available right away (you don't have the full pool until Ch. 3), some bonus skills turn into replacements (Pavise for Pavise+ on Grima, for example), and they still need to add support for the mode in the UI.

My bad, 10 seconds then.

[Czar_Yoshi]

More like a day to change the code and several weeks to play through it for debugging purposes. It would probably take more than ten seconds just to find the files they needed.

A full list of stuff they had to do: Create variants of Pavise, Aegis, Luna, Hit+20 with altered stats, create new images for them, create the code to distribute them (which has to change at Cht.3, work differently for some bosses (Yen'fay only gets one L+ skill, for example), and may not distribute skills equally), redo the boss data for Grima, Walhart, and possibly Yen'fay, add Lunatic+ to the menu (includes making a Lunatic+ graphic and an additional recolor of the Cas/Cla bit), make that new Lunatic+ bit show up on Streetpass cards, add some stuff in to make it unlock instead of default, write the mode description, and finally test the thing.

Compared to the other modes that required complete changes of enemy data including forges and skills (don't forget Hit+10), that's not very much, but it's a lot more than you're giving them credit for.

Oh, and don't forget actually thinking the mode up. Someone actually had to decide to make another mode and determine how to set it up, that doesn't happen instantly. And given how each skill seems to be geared toward countering a specific "OP" strategy, they probably spent a decent amount of time on that.

[Thor Odinson]

My qualms about writing and character/class design choices aside since I've talked enough about those in the past...

The only chapter I want changed is L+ chapter 2 because fuck that chapter. I'm welcome to the variability of L+ otherwise. Don't like it? Don't play it. Simple as that. It's just an optional mode that's kinda like an NG+ bonus and only if you beat Lunatic anyway. No point complaining about its existence.

I got FE:A because it's a FE and it looked pretty fun, but I do like to have challenging modes in my FEs. I like the fact that there's various difficulty modes, because most newcomers to the series get enough challenge out of Normal (and that's entirely fine), but that's not enough challenge for those of us who sometimes like to play strategy games for the challenge. As the game is entirely doable without grinding, I'm fine with having the grinding elements there as an option for people who are struggling through certain parts or just really want shiny green numbers, even though I don't use it. There's no harm in having options.

[Constable Reggie]

I hope you're not under the impression that I was literally talking about 10 seconds or anything of the like.

My point was that Lunatic+ mode probably required very little resources and time to implement in comparison to most other things in the game. Whereas the regular difficulty modes were likely brutally playtested (it has some pretty damn good enemy placement), all Lunatic mode+ did was take an already existing game mode and implemented a few new skills into it. Things like adding a Lunatic+ button and giving Grima/Validar slightly different skills is entirely insignificant. Making a variant of an already created skill with "if rng > 0, yes" is entirely insignificant. You trying to use those as points is not convincing at all.

Realistically it probably took them like a week or some time equally inconsequential to the whole dev process to say "Hey, remember that lolsmode we had in Fe12? Let's bring that back, but use skills instead!", implement it, test it to make sure its at least beatable, remove the skills before ch3 because it was impossible to beat, then finish it.

Fact of the matter is that it's unlikely the time used to make lunatic+ mode would have been particularly productive anywhere else.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Constable Reggie

[Interceptor]

I hope you're not under the impression that I was literally talking about 10 seconds or anything of the like.

Here's the impression I'm under: that when it comes to the software development process at large companies where professionals collect paychecks for their work, you have a lot of naive opinions.

You trying to use those as points is not convincing at all.

You being unconvinced by Czar_Yoshi's explanation, says more about you than it does about him. I had forgotten about a couple of those things, including the need for new art assets.

Fact of the matter is that it's unlikely the time used to make lunatic+ mode would have been particularly productive anywhere else.

This may indeed be the case, and my gut says it's likely, but it's no "fact" as a conclusion of anything that you've said here.

[Constable Reggie]

Here's the impression I'm under: that when it comes to the software development process at large companies where professionals collect paychecks for their work, you have a lot of naive opinions.

Indie devs won't know what fucking hit em

You being unconvinced by Czar_Yoshi's explanation, says more about you than it does about him. I had forgotten about a couple of those things, including the need for new art assets.

When you have to use "make a new button graphic" as an indicator of the time it took to make the mode, it kind of shows the huge difference between Lunatic+ mode and anything else as prominent in the game.

This may indeed be the case, and my gut says it's likely, but it's no "fact" as a conclusion of anything that you've said here.

Czar's list gives a lot of substance to the likelikness.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Constable Reggie

[Interceptor]

Indie devs won't know what fucking hit em

I'll take this to mean that you understand that there's a difference between a 1st-party corporate developer, and a neckbeard scratching an itch on a toy project. We will call it progress.

When you have to use "make a new button graphic" as an indicator of the time it took to make the mode, it kind of shows the huge difference between Lunatic+ mode and anything else as prominent in the game.

What it actually shows is the difference between someone who thought carefully about what would be required to make a new game mode, and someone who just mailed it in. You also need new graphics for the Lunatic+ skills. Wait, I'm getting a vision, I can see the future...

"five seconds in MSPaint"

[Constable Reggie]

I'll take this to mean that you understand that there's a difference between a 1st-party corporate developer, and a neckbeard scratching an itch on a toy project. We will call it progress.

I took your statement to claim that professionals get paychecks, whatever the hell those are. Do they have to do with this naive opinion you mentioned before?

What it actually shows is the difference between someone who thought carefully about what would be required to make a new game mode, and someone who just mailed it in. You also need new graphics for the Lunatic+ skills. Wait, I'm getting a vision, I can see the future...

"five seconds in MSPaint"

You forgot to include the fact that you have to click on the MSPaint icon, wait for it open, save the picture after you finish it, test it by making sure it shows up on a different paint browser, and making sure it's the right format. So a better guesstimate would be ten seconds.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Constable Reggie

[Czar_Yoshi]

Take a look at those. The first one's from PoR, and the second one is from Awakening. There's a pretty big difference in graphical quality, and it's not something that took ten seconds to produce. Respect the Devs, bro.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi

[Constable Reggie]

Look at all that work!

Also, even though I never mentioned anything about the work they put in the regular skills, you sneakily omitted RD's counter

Look a little familiar?

Edited March 6, 2014 by Constable Reggie

[metalsnowman3]

Not sure what you are arguing about anymore but I would give them a bit more credit because they made it doable (but really hard) as so many people have shown. Also, if they were being lazy and wanted to make some absurdly hard, it would just be literally impossible to win no matter what you did. Also, turn based strategy games can only be so hard with an AI making moves.

[NinjaMonkey]

I'd also like it for Great Knights to be sole Axe-wielding horseback units, instead of being armored versions of paladins with axe usage.

Do we really need another Axe-only promoted class? We already have Berserkers and Griffon Riders as it is. Also, there is no class that loses weapons upon promotion (under your idea, Cavaliers would lose access to swords and lances, while Knights would just lose lances).

Edited March 6, 2014 by NinjaMonkey

[Moira]

When you have an opinion, you back it up as much as is needed to have a respectable response from the average person.

When you go as far as to have the balls to say a statement such as a "failure on a business standpoint", you back up your statement/opinion with something other than baseless conjecture and personal preference. You have nothing to back up your statement regarding the business portion of it other than your assumption that they could have worked on something better.

What experience do you have on analyzing the business part of a feature of a game? What can you show? Can you show how terrible the mode is and how it negatively affected sales? Can you show how much of a waste of time it was creating said mode by showing a clearly superior alternative? What was the general response to the mode from a sample of people? Did you factor in bias?

All the things you have said so far are based on personal opinion.

You are free to have the opinion to state that you dislike Lunatic+. That they could have done something better with their time.

What you did was go beyond that and make a statement to exaggarate it and qualify your own opinion and personal experience.

You can believe yourself that it is honestly a business failure, but don't expect others to believe your statement if you can't back it up. You are putting that opinion in a post, and therefore subjecting it to criticism.

Hence, why I'm calling you out on it.

However, it seems you simply don't get it at all, and all that's going to result in this is bashing my head against the wall.

Pretty much, all you're doing is complaining with a flawed explanation of why the mode shouldn't have existed in preference of a vague "something" that could have taken its place.

Software development isn't as easy as replacing x amount of time by removing y feature for z feature.

Good Night.

I really feel as if you haven't read what I've written. I could write a lengthy response but everything I say seems to get lost because I'm not allowed to know enough to have an opinion.

I'm just going to post my personal thoughts on lunatic+ in a shorter version so that we're all on the same page.

Lunatic+ was a mode that was more of a better than nothing than a really good improvement. It's nice that they cater to the niche group of hardcore fans, but I feel like more could've been done since it doesn't offer much in my opinion. The business thing isn't even a big deal, i'm just saying that it didn't succeed in that category (not that it was supposed to) and it didn't do that well in the other categories, (again my opinion). I really don't see that many people talking about how much lunatic+ has added to their gameplay experience. So while it was a good addition, I believe they could have done more.

Is it such a stretch for people to go ahead and assume that something that applies to such a small amount of fans probably didn't affect sales? That's all I was trying to say.

I never claimed that i was some super experienced analyst, but people seem to think I said that.

Really though, does everyone think that Lunatic+ was helpful to sales and was a big reason to people for buying Awakening? Does nobody think there could have been something better than lunatic plus? Do I have to have a degree in business in order to have these opinions? It's ok if you don't, but people seem to think i'm insane for thinking these. I can say that i'm probably a poor explainer, and could've used better word choice. By business failure, I meant it didn't make money for them. And i tried to back up my thinking. You said before you didn't understand what I was posting, and I can be bad at explaining, but instead of blowing up at me ask me to retry my explanation or don't comment so negatively about it.

Edited March 6, 2014 by n00srac

[Hamicsat]

You don't have to be a business major to have an opinion. However, when you back up your opinion by saying that something you didn't like negatively affected sales, you at least need to have SOMETHING to back it up. You can base your opinion upon anything else and I don't think anyone would care (at least not this much), but you're pulling this argument about sales out of your ass. Not to mention that Awakening is the highest selling Fire Emblem by at least 300,000 units, making your argument even harder to defend.

Now, on topic stuff:

I feel like Awakening could be most easily improved by modifying the reclass system. I'm really not a fan of the concept of having one unit that is able to use 5 different class-specific abilities at once; not only is it awful for balance, but it completely undermines the uniquity of most classes. The Assassin class is hardly ever used beyond the short grinding period necessary to learn Lethality, the Warrior is thrown out the instant you learn Counter, and so on. I can think of a few possible options that might alleviate this issue:

1. Only two class-specific skills can be active at once.

2. Class-specific abilities can only be accessed if you are using the proper class (Counter for Warrior, Aegis for General, etc)

3. Bring back the skill point system from the Tellius games.

I was really not a fan of how Galeforce/Aggressor/Lethality combos could shatter any of the game's challenges besides Apotheosis and most of Lunatic/Lunatic+, so I hope that changes in future installments.

Also, remove the Avatar. Not only is he a completely game-breaking unit with absurd growth rates, but he also has the personality of a potato and, despite having no relevance to the storyline, has every character in the entire game kissing the ground he walks on. He's more of a Mary Sue than Micaiah, and that's saying something. And let's not forget that his magical ability to bang every living creature on the continent has led to an embarrassing level of fan fiction in a series that is naturally predicated towards such nonsense. I want his head on a pike.

[Moira]

I never ever said that I believe lunatic+ negatively affected sales. It's something someone fabricated based on what they thought I was saying. Once again, please read what I say.

I'm sorry if I sound rude but it is annoying when people put words in your mouth.

Edited March 6, 2014 by n00srac

[NinjaMonkey]

but he also has the personality of a potato

So do all of the other FE main characters in the series. Shall we scrap them as well?

and, despite having no relevance to the storyline

Being the human form of Grima, the final boss, equals not having relevance to the story?

Edited March 6, 2014 by NinjaMonkey

[shadowofchaos]

I never ever said that I believe lunatic+ negatively affected sales. It's something someone fabricated based on what they thought I was saying. Once again, please read what I say.

I'm sorry if I sound rude but it is annoying when people put words in your mouth.

...so what's the problem here?

"Failure from a business perspective" is a statement that isn't said unless that feature horrendously screwed up sales.

It's what you've been implying the whole time.

My entire point is that specific statement in any context you've been having doesn't hold any validity.

Edited March 6, 2014 by shadowofchaos