Skill Build for Dark Knight, Paladin and Bow Knight

[poptdp]

Sup guys, long time lurker, first time poster.

I've got over 200 hours playtime on my Lunatic playfile, finished Apotheosis SP, etc... I've played the hell out of this game and its my favourite game on the 3DS. Also, I prefer to go for my favourite classes rather than what the best is (cough*sorceror*cough).

That being said, can someone tell me what the absolute best build is for the Dark Knight, Paladin and Bow Knight classes? I love mounted units, and these 3 are my favourite for my avatar. They each have their strengths and weaknesses so could you guys give some advice on skill builds? ASSUME that I have every ability available (because i pretty much do).

Here are what I think the best in my opinion (taking into account whether I want to solo a map with him), feel free to comment, criticise, etc:

Dark Knight:

Sol

Acrobat

Tomefaire

Armsthrift

Limit Breaker

Bow Knight:

Luna

Lifetaker

Aggressor

Armstrift

Limit Breaker

Paladin:
Sol

Pavise

Aegis

Armstrift

Limit Breaker

Keep in mind, I do a lot of post game Lunatic skirmishes and DLC maps, so I try to have them as survivable as possible in cases of going solo (pretty much impossible for Bow Knight, better off in groups and player phases).

Thanks!

[Gaia]

I'm not going to mince words, okay? Good, let's get started.

First, let me say something: Postgame, armsthrift sucks. So does Sol. For a MaMU, this is going to be the ideal skillset for all classes except for Sage (V/V):

Luna

Ignis

-Faire

Aggressor

LB

Dark Knight:

Sol

Acrobat

Tomefaire

Armsthrift

Limit Breaker

lolAT is terrible. lolSol. Healing skills aren't something that should even be in your mind when you think of a unit. Acrobat is a decent skill, but considering rescues exist, and considering Apotheosis doesn't have anything that slows you down IIRC, it's not that great.

Bow Knight:

Luna

Lifetaker

Aggressor

Armstrift

Limit Breaker

Again with the healing skills and AT. Also no -faire.

Paladin:

Sol

Pavise

Aegis

Armstrift

Limit Breaker

Defensive build. Dear God, why? Terrible. Just bloody terrible.

Also, what's with this prospect of doing things solo? In the Lunatic postgame, you're not going to get anything done unless you spread the work around. And with Lunatic skirmishes, there's this thing of "lol LB." Also, I believe you're completely forgetting the fact that you can switch skillsets at any time outside of a fight.

Edited April 1, 2014 by Gaia

[Czar_Yoshi]

Gaius, have you ever actually fought the lunatic Risen? You're acting like there's only one way to play the game and it just ain't so. Against anything but Apo defensive works fine, sometimes better than offensive. Also...

First, let me say something: Postgame, armsthrift sucks. So does Sol. For a MaMU, this is going to be the ideal skillset for *ANY* class, no matter what:

Luna

Ignis

-Faire

Aggressor

LB

Vantage/Vengeance says you're wrong.

For soloing Risen (I usually do Lunatic Risen without DLC so no LB), good skills include Renewal (better than Lifetaker, without Galeforce you'll be kiting), AT (lets you preserve the Gradivus/Book of Naga), Pass (sometimes good if you get cornered), Aegis (Res is usually more of a problem than Def and it's easier to get than Pavise), Deliverer (more Mov, more important if you lack boots) and a situation-appropriate Breaker. I don't use Sol much because I don't have room for two healing skills and Renewal works better when there's room to run.

Acrobat works since you're grinding for skills, I usually don't use it because a) it's hard to get and b) I prefer Wyvern Lords who don't need it.

Edited April 1, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi

[poptdp]

Like i said, Im playing on Lunatic and like having the option of doing things solo. I know you can always change the skills outside of combat but what I mean by solo is the ability to send out my MaMU to anywhere in the map and not have to worry about the enemy phase.

Why do you say healing skills like Sol are irrelevant postgame?? I say its the most relevant postgame, ESPECIALLY if u plan to solo maps without a healer around. ESPECIALLY on lunatic where the enemies hit you with heavy damage most of the time and surround u.

And how is Armsthrift irrelevant postgame?? It allows me to use Forged Brave weapons, Forged Celica's Gales and Valflames without having to worry about running out?

Also, when you suggest Luna AND Ignis in the same skillset?? That is a waste of a skill slot as two skills can never be activated at the same time and they essentially do the same damage with the same percentage of Activation. Not a fan of having two activation skills in the same build.

Edited April 1, 2014 by poptdp

[Gaia]

Gaius, have you ever actually fought the lunatic Risen?

Yes, I have. I still hold true to my opinion that a good offense is the best defense. And remember, when you're doing those things, if you feel the need, there's the option to switch your skillset. At any time. There's no reason to keep the same one forever. And yeah, I forgot V/V, which was completely my fault. Which is a defensive build and an offensive build in one. So...

Edited April 1, 2014 by Gaia

[Czar_Yoshi]

Like i said, Im playing on Lunatic and like having the option of doing things solo. I know you can always change the skills outside of combat but what I mean by solo is the ability to send out my MaMU to anywhere in the map and not have to worry about the enemy phase.

Why do you say healing skills like Sol are irrelevant postgame?? I say its the most relevant postgame, ESPECIALLY if u plan to solo maps without a healer around. ESPECIALLY on lunatic where the enemies hit you with heavy damage most of the time and surround u.

And how is Armsthrift irrelevant postgame?? It allows me to use Forged Brave weapons, Forged Celica's Gales and Valflames without having to worry about running out?

Also, when you suggest Luna AND Ignis in the same skillset?? That is a waste of a skill slot as two skills can never be activated at the same time and they essentially do the same damage with the same percentage of Activation. Not a fan of having two activation skills in the same build.

Here's where he's coming from:

AT gives you no combat advantage. It's great for preparation, it cuts down grinding time, and it lets you use flashy moves, but when you're locked in combat with Apo's Nightmare Sniper it does absolutely nothing to help you.

When your damage dealt is halved/quartered on Apo, Sol restores 1/4 or 1/8- and since it can't stack with other procs, this is sometimes as low as +3 HP per hit. In a proper Apo run, you either won't take damage or will want to keep your HP low, so even that doesn't help.

If Luna fails to activate, Ignis still can so you have a higher chance of getting a proc.

Now, all of the above is assuming that you're playing Apo with full deployment, and you're doing a lot more than that. In most of those cases this is either extreme overkill or does nothing to help you, which is why I called it out.

Edited April 1, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi

[poptdp]

Assume I just want to do skirmishes postgame. No apotheosis (already finished it)

[Czar_Yoshi]

For skirmishes alone, the advice in my first post is pretty sound. You'll want Pass, Renewal, Deliverer, Acrobat, Aegis, AT, and all the breakers on hand and can choose between them based on your situation (this holds true for all of those classes). Pass for small maps, Deliverer for large maps, Renewal if you lack a Gate, Acrobat if you're on Cht.8/24, Aegis if you get Mages, AT always, and one situation-appropriate breaker. If your support partner has Anathema, be sure to have them equip that as well because it works from the back.

Speaking of your support partner, you don't say who they are but DK x DF and Paladin x FK make very nice teams.

Edited April 1, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi

[poptdp]

^ thx dude.

the thing is though, the reason I asked for different skillsets for the 3 different classes is because they have different uses. e.g. dark knight is going to be tome user, and with Tomefaire and Limit breaker, most of the time he's going to kill anyone who engages him on the enemy phase, meaning Pass will be useless for him.

That's also why I have Sol on him, because what I do is throw him right into a group of enemies, SOLO (no support partner) and he pretty much kills anyone who engages him. His only weakness is facing two counter monkeys in a row. Bow Knight doesn't have the Counter weakness, but his defences are crap and he can't consistently use Sol (most enemies fight him adjacent and kill him before anything can happen). Paladin's build is a Defence build so he can still use Sol on adjacent enemies and be protected enough against ranged enemies (refer to OP)

[Czar_Yoshi]

Are you on Lunatic+? Because Counter on vanilla Lunatic is too rare to be a big issue.

Regardless, the best way I've found to solo strong Risen (regardless of class) is to fight on EP at the edge of their range so you only get 2-3 fights per EP. Even if you're on Lunatic+, you won't be overwhelmed by Counter that way. You can throw yourself in there and fight it out in one turn, but it's neither the most reliable nor most interesting strategy and you said you wanted the very best, so...

If you're jumping in the middle, you might also want to consider Counter for yourself. I still recommend Pass in case you need to escape when you're surrounded. BK will probably benefit most out of those from Renewal because the battle will take longer.

Since you're using DLC, Res+10 is also a good skill to consider. I still don't consider a Faire to be that good of a use of a skillslot as all it does is boost your stats (and only one of them at that), replace it with Vengeance or Ignis if you want extra Atk (Sol has priority over both of those, so the game will first check if you got a Sol and only give you one of the others if you didn't, so you're not losing healing from this).

[poptdp]

that's an interesting idea with the Sol > Ignis/Vengeance thing...

what are the orders of priority? what happens if u have both Sol and Luna?

[xcel]

that's an interesting idea with the Sol > Ignis/Vengeance thing...

what are the orders of priority? what happens if u have both Sol and Luna?

Proc priority: Lethality > Aether > Astra > Sol > Luna > Ignis > Vengeance

So if you have both Sol and Luna with 40 Skill, Sol is checked first and you have a 40% chance to activate it. If it fails, then Luna has a 40% chance to activate. In the end, you have a 64% chance of activating either Sol or Luna.

Edit: Airship Canon and Hawk King explain it well in this thread. http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=43481&p=2663545

Airship doesn't recommend combining Sol/Luna but in my opinion, use what works for you.

Edited April 2, 2014 by xcel

[Czar_Yoshi]

Sol+Luna is bad if you care about damage output, but in your case your primary focus is staying alive so it should be more helpful. I'd recommend Sol+Vengeance instead though because Vengeance has a higher activation rate and you're likely to be taking a lot of damage.

Proc priority: Lethality > Aether > Astra > Sol > Luna > Ignis > Vengeance > Luna+

Don't forget Luna+.

[poptdp]

Hmm I see wat ur saying czar. For max damage output I like the Luna+ignis combo.

However, for solo lunatic skirmishes I'm going with this build:

Dark knight (because 1-2 range over paladin and bow knight) with Valflame

Sol

Acrobat

Tomefaire

Armsthrift

Limit breaker

Acrobat is really just filler so I can have no sand weaknesses and I love being able to move anywhere. With this build I've had the most success in terms of dropping MaMU into a field of surrounding enemies, with no support partner, and proceeding to sweep them on the enemy phase. I just sit back and watch it like a movie lmao

[poptdp]

UPDATE:

after taking the advice here, I have an updated skillset for my Dark Knight, which is:

Luna

Ignis

Tomefaire

Armsthrift

Limit Breaker

I took out Sol, because as Czar said, better to go with damage output and strategy than just throwing someone in the middle of enemies and watching them fight. Although I love Luna, Im not a huge fan of Ignis and was thinking of switching it out for either Lifetaker or Aggressor. Both skills solely benefit Player Phase. I am keeping Tomefaire in because it works on both phases, and I will never get rid of Armsthrift or LB because Forged weapons + awesome stats.

What do you recommend replacing Ignis with? I'm leaning towards Lifetaker but not sure if Aggressor is better...

[Czar_Yoshi]

With LB, your foes will need ~50+ Def/Res for Luna to outdamage Ignis. If you want to get rid of a proc, it would probably be better to lose Luna instead because enemies rarely reach that in one stat and never in both (outside of Apo).

If you're still into soloing Risen, Lifetaker will help more but I'd recommend Renewal over either of those since it doesn't involve charging into a crowd to activate.

[poptdp]

im probably not gonna go solo and actually use this set on a team so I wont have to rely on healing skills too much cos I will have a healer. so maybe I will go with Aggressor. The reason I like Luna over Ignis isn't just because of the awesome usefulness in Apo but also cause aesthetically it looks better than Ignis lol. I don't like the flowery pink stuff with Ignis. Plus I don't think it matters too much that Ignis does a little extra damage than Luna? since most of the time it will take MINIMUM 2 hits to kill an enemy (I highly doubt I can 1 hit an enemy, even with Ignis) and even if Luna activates once, the 2nd hit will probably kill them regardless so am I right to assume that even though Ignis will be outdamaging Luna it really doesn't make much of a difference?

[Czar_Yoshi]

For Risen, it really depends on who you're fighting. But if you have a full team, it shouldn't matter.

If you're doing Apo now, Agg is definitely the better choice. In fact, since Avatar-M has no Galeforce and will almost always be at the back of a pairup, you could also swap Luna for All+2 or Anathema or something if you really wanted to.

Say your DK has neutral 0/0 Str/Mag mods (which likely isn't the case, but eh). With LB, that's 48 Str and 51 Mag. Valflame has 23 effective mt after WRB and it's Mag+5, and Ignis gives +24 and Agg gives +10. That's a total of 108 atk with Agg, so you OHKO anything with 28 Res or less. There aren't any promoted classes that weak, but if you have at least +2 Mag mod then you can OHKO enemies with 30 Res, and there are a lot of classes that cap there. Still, Celica's can two-shot anything that doesn't have Aegis(+) or Dragonskin with or without Ignis, and you have AT so it doesn't matter at all.

[poptdp]

wats WRB?

also, I will still mostly be doing Risen skirmishes as opposed to Apo, I just like the fact that Luna can hold its own in Apo. I'm also probably gonna go with Arcfire for the lulz and cos it looks awesome, so I don't think I'll be 1 shotting anything anyway.

so Luna > Ignis?

Edited April 23, 2014 by poptdp

[Czar_Yoshi]

WRB = Weapon Rank Bonus. Basically you get a small bonus (OK, it can actually be quite significant) to atk and hit depending on your weapon type and weapon rank. The WRB is cancelled if you're at a weapon disadvantage, but there's no weapon triangle for Tomes so you pretty much always have it. A Tomes gives +2 atk and +5 hit.

If you want to use Luna, go for it. As long as you can double, it won't make a difference. However unforged Arcfire is pretty cheap so you could ditch Armsthrift instead if you want to.

[poptdp]

yea I was actually thinking about ditching Armsthrift. but is it worth ditching it over having Forged Arcfires?

[Czar_Yoshi]

Honestly, LB is so strong that you could probably do this with unforged Wind tomes, especially with Ignis. You'll get Bullion from the Risen anyway, so you can keep one forge (or a normal Celica's) and several normal Arcfires on hand and just pull out the forge in a pinch if it becomes important.

[poptdp]

^ that's interesting... so what would you replace Armsthrift with?

so far I have:

Luna

Aggressor

Tomefaire
ARMSTHRIFT

Limit Breaker

[Gaia]

Ignis.

[poptdp]

^ which ironically brings the set back to your original suggestion lol. but as I mentioned im not really a fan of Ignis :/