Do ALL passive skills work from the back?

[Elieson]

I.E. Sumia!Chrom enters battle. Chrom has Prescience and Outdoor Fighter from his other classes. Do they both activate, if Sumia's the lead?

[Duke of Dozel]

Yes.

Not all passive skills work though.

[Tables]

I seem to recall there being like, one passive skill that doesn't activate - not sure exactly what, but basically everything passive works.

[Czar_Yoshi]

All +Hit/Avo skills still work, but +Avo doesn't do anything in the rear. This includes Breakers.

All statboosting skills work in the back, but only LB affects pairup bonuses.

All Aura skills (Charm, Anathema, Solidarity etc) except Bond work from the back, and the ones that buff your units also affect the lead unit.

All skills that have an activation icon with animations off do nothing in the back (Galeforce, Lifetaker, all skills with activation rates except AT).

[Raftina]

Everything works in the back except:

1. Defender

2. Skills with an activation icon (Sol, Despoil, Vantage, etc)

3. Life recovery skills (Relief, Bond, Renewal)

[Tables]

Everything works in the back except:

1. Defender

2. Skills with an activation icon (Sol, Despoil, Vantage, etc)

3. Life recovery skills (Relief, Bond, Renewal)

@Bold: Also Veteran and Deliverer (not that the latter would do anything). I guess the game considers you to be 'paired up' only if you're the front unit, basically.

[Elieson]

Hmm..

Alright, I think I can do this.

I'm planning my Lunatic Tier1Run, and trying to determine if I can actually deal the damage to Grima that's necessary to kill him. I am pretty close with the

So far, I've factored in everything except Charm (which I now can act assuming that it works with Chrom in the back), and I just considered the application of a Hex/Anathema bot(s).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oHNSF0s_W4pkCyPHnrSyGCuSfBDFzyLSxJowPqxTJIk/edit#gid=0

That's my notes so far. I need 41 speed to avoid getting doubled by Grima, and with supports tonics etc, this setup JUST BARELY allows for it.

I can (in a perfect world)....net 85 Damage with Chrom's family.

___________

***Edit

If I have say, Severa and Morgan paired up, and both units have Anathema, does the Avo penalty stack on the enemy?

Edited May 15, 2014 by Elieson

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Are you accounting for Dragonskin in that math (I have no idea if I'm reading your spreadsheet right)?

As for Anathema, I believe the debuff can only apply once.

[Raftina]

No. The same skill does not stack.

[Elieson]

I just organized it a little better on the Right side, to display Hit (not counting Anathema/Hex penalties) and Dmg. The instances in Hit with (P) are accounting for Prescience, which I never thought I'd have to depend on.

Since Chrom and Lucina and Morgan all strike from behind, they ignore Dragonskin. With Bravestrikes at 77% for everyone, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to hope for DS's to occur, and Chrom/Lucina/Morgan are dealing the brunt of the damage anyway, yielding 82/99 damage from DSs alone.

You're right though, I didn't account for Dragonskin anything. TBH i just forgot with reference to Kjelle's AetherLuna, but I assumed that Dragonskin didn't apply to attacks from the rear unit.

This...is gonna take a while.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

I'm pretty confident that Dragonskin applies to the rear unit. I usually do an Avatar/Chrom takedown in regular runs with Chrom as a Paladin. Normally he's got Tonic + Str Rally + 43 base Str + 45 might from Exalted Falchion = 94 attack. Against Grima's 50 Def, if Dragonskin didn't apply, Chrom would completely stomp him with 44 damage per hit. I've never seen any output from Chrom higher than 22 and since I know Pavise is ignored, Dragonskin can be the only culprit.

EDIT: I just had a hilarious thought. Let me lay this all out:

• There's five open spaces around the boss provided you can kill at least one of his guard.
• A unit can still attack after Transferring.
• Chrom can easily get five A supports.

Now consider that it would be possible to have A support units with Brave weaponry chain Transfer Chrom around behind them and get attacks in against Grima for all five tiles. Wherever you create the opening, you can also have Olivia slip in to give that unit another go at it (provided you can get them enough healing so that they don't die and drop Chrom, thus ruining the chain). In a perfect world, this adds up to 12 hits * 22 damage = 260 raw damage, which is 130 damage. This means you must land 9 of 12 hits in order to score the kill.

Edited May 15, 2014 by Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi

[Tables]

Yeah, Dragonskin halves all damage, even from support units. Pavgis(+) don't, since they're activation skills, while Dragonskin is a passive one.

[Elieson]

I'm pretty confident that Dragonskin applies to the rear unit. I usually do an Avatar/Chrom takedown in regular runs with Chrom as a Paladin. Normally he's got Tonic + Str Rally + 43 base Str + 45 might from Exalted Falchion = 94 attack. Against Grima's 50 Def, if Dragonskin didn't apply, Chrom would completely stomp him with 44 damage per hit. I've never seen any output from Chrom higher than 22 and since I know Pavise is ignored, Dragonskin can be the only culprit.

EDIT: I just had a hilarious thought. Let me lay this all out:

• There's five open spaces around the boss provided you can kill at least one of his guard.
• A unit can still attack after Transferring.
• Chrom can easily get five A supports.

Now consider that it would be possible to have A support units with Brave weaponry chain Transfer Chrom around behind them and get attacks in against Grima for all five tiles. Wherever you create the opening, you can also have Olivia slip in to give that unit another go at it (provided you can get them enough healing so that they don't die and drop Chrom, thus ruining the chain). In a perfect world, this adds up to 12 hits * 22 damage = 260 raw damage, which is 130 damage. This means you must land 9 of 12 hits in order to score the kill.

I was just math'ing out the possibility of that, which means I need to plan for an entire team of units with as many as possible having 41 speed through MEANS, and 22+Def, as 22Def is the benchmark for a fullHP unit with a Def Tonic and Chrom in pairup to survive an Ignis counterstrike from Grima, and 45 AS means...well, 41 speed to not get ramhammered for over 100Dmg.

Also, my chart is wrong then, in that I only do 11 damage with Chrom, instead of 22. Still, that's enough to kill Grima in 9 hits, and if this works out properly, it's a theoretical 12 hits like you said, of all Dual strikes ranging in at about 75%. I can't buff up Chrom's hit rate, but Anathema and Hex might be a major contributor to this, as well as Lucina's Charm.

It's gonna be messy, but it just might be possible, with proper planning and efficient unit layout.

I'll just bank on the fact that up to most of my deployed team WILL be killed in this effort. Though, making as many Anathema/Hex bots as possible will prove adventageous. I might allow myself to Golden Gaffe with Fred/others simply because I don't think I can afford all of the braves that I'll need for this operation.

Edited May 15, 2014 by Elieson

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Hmmm, hitting that Speed and Defense threshold might be a bit tough. How much are you willing to change your army composition to work around this?

Ugh... actually, it doesn't look like anyone is fast and sturdy enough while also supporting Chrom to pull this off. Just how grindy are you willing to let things get?

Braves aren't that expensive when unforged and I think it would be pointless to forge them anyway. The rear unit can still dual strike off a miss and the lead unit is unlikely to do any damage, even with forged might.

Edited May 15, 2014 by Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi

[Elieson]

I'm very willing, on the condition that Fred, Anna, Libra, Panne, Tiki and Now I don't engage in combat. The point of this challenge is to beat Lunatic mode, which I think I can do...just, Grima...

That and I'd like to stay away from renownwifi items and do as much as I can with in game exp and goods. I own the Golden pack, CoY, and a few others for paragon/dread scroll, but if I can avoid them, it'd be cooler.

Oh shoot, I dunno why I thought the lead strike had to connect for a DS to occur. That'd save a lot then. It'd be nice for other chapters, like 22/23 still.

Edited May 15, 2014 by Elieson

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

The lead units in the chain can't die or else they'll drop Chrom and then the others will only be able to pair onto him. It's looking like Chrom's supports may not have both the supports and stats to make this strategy work. However, I'm brewing up something that may require EXPonential, though nothing else. Then again, unpromoted [=EXP=] gain is pretty fast.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Okay, I worked it out and now the strategy features Lucina, so I hope you like grinding for kids. I guess Panne's gonna have to sit unarmed being a bum behind Virion while he plinks things to death in order for you to get Yarne, since he's an integral corner piece. Hilariously enough, Dark Mage!Cynthia gets to be the other corner. I'm really annoyed that Lucina can't support Severa, as she would have been a really accessible Archer. I listed out all the viable meleers I came across in the spreadsheet, but the mock formation contains those with the lower level maps.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oTrQ13rgN25S1r8UyhVdQwtWDv6f5qXd4UG667mZD-4/edit?usp=sharing

[Czar_Yoshi]

This is definitely possible because I've done it on Lunatic+ (base classes only, no promoted skills except Aether/RK on Chrom's kids, Coy3 and LB3 as the only DLC allowed). I don't know how feasible it is without the DLC because All+2 is really important for hitting 50 Spd to double Grima. I also used Barracks Boosts (Avatar and Morgan, I made them share a birthday) but whatever.

Surrounding Grima and passing Chrom sounds fine, but it doesn't work as well as you'd think in practice because he's surrounded by goons that make movement management difficult. You also can't stop to clear out the goons or you'll be overwhelmed by reinforcements (and Grima has 6 range). I wound up using Severa as Anathema support, getting Chrom 6 possible attacks (two from Lucina, 4 from Lon'qu!Severa!Morgan (Spd: 25(Archer base) +10(mods) +5(Chrom) +2(All+2) +2(Spd+2) +2(tonic) +4(Barracks) =50)), and having Grima hit Yarne to exactly 1HP before dancing him and killing Grima with a crit from the Vengeance Axe.

Chrom's damage (All+2/Skl+2/DS+/Prescience/Charm or Outdoor Fighter): 25(base) +1(mods) +2(All+2) +2(tonic) +48(Falchion) -58(Grima's Def) /2 =10. Chrom also has... One listed crit.

Yarne's atk (All+2/Str+2/Zeal/Underdog/Gamble) (yes, I used Donnel!Yarne- that's probably something I'd change if I did this again): 30(Barb) +9(+Spd/-Def Barb Avatar pairup) +2(All+2) +2(Str+2) +2(tonic) +18(Brave Axe) =63 -58 /4 =1 x2 whole damage to Grima. Avatar isn't much better, he does like 3 damage with Hauteclere or something. With Vengeance though he gets atk+32 (-1 for Vengeance Axe, +2 for S.Dance) which gives 96 -58 /4 =9 damage. A crit on that does 27, so if all of Chrom's DSes connect, Grima takes 1+1+10+10+10+10+10+10+27 damage, exactly enough for the kill. If Lucina procs Aether, Morgan does damage or Avatar does damage, Chrom could probably whiff a DS and still get the curbstomp.

Yarne's crit is at least 5(Venegance) +10(Solidarity) +15(support from Avatar A, Morgan A and Olivia) +10(Gamble) +5(Zeal) +10(Anathema) =55, so he'll have more than 10 listed crit on Grima.

Edited May 16, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi

[Elieson]

Okay, I worked it out and now the strategy features Lucina, so I hope you like grinding for kids. I guess Panne's gonna have to sit unarmed being a bum behind Virion while he plinks things to death in order for you to get Yarne, since he's an integral corner piece. Hilariously enough, Dark Mage!Cynthia gets to be the other corner. I'm really annoyed that Lucina can't support Severa, as she would have been a really accessible Archer. I listed out all the viable meleers I came across in the spreadsheet, but the mock formation contains those with the lower level maps.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oTrQ13rgN25S1r8UyhVdQwtWDv6f5qXd4UG667mZD-4/edit?usp=sharing

My Hard Mode attempt at this relied on Donny!Yarne!Morgan, and ended up being a Dodgetank until pretty much Endgame, with some Chrom littered in there for effective hits. It was a lot easier than I had expected it to be.

As for your plan, all the Myrms look good on paper, but only 5 people at a time can attack Grima (with Chrom in tow), and (3 Myrms and 2 two-range units). The extra myrms would probably be better off as different classes, if only for the sake of being designated fodder for taking on Grima's 5 guards. Probably Gerome and Inigo, since their higher strength would be better with something like Hammer or Helswath or something, since Generals and all.

This is definitely possible because I've done it on Lunatic+ (base classes only, no promoted skills except Aether/RK on Chrom's kids, Coy3 and LB3 as the only DLC allowed). I don't know how feasible it is without the DLC because All+2 is really important for hitting 50 Spd to double Grima. I also used Barracks Boosts (Avatar and Morgan, I made them share a birthday) but whatever.

Surrounding Grima and passing Chrom sounds fine, but it doesn't work as well as you'd think in practice because he's surrounded by goons that make movement management difficult. You also can't stop to clear out the goons or you'll be overwhelmed by reinforcements (and Grima has 6 range). I wound up using Severa as Anathema support, getting Chrom 6 possible attacks (two from Lucina, 4 from Lon'qu!Severa!Morgan (Spd: 25(Archer base) +10(mods) +5(Chrom) +2(All+2) +2(Spd+2) +2(tonic) +4(Barracks) =50)), and having Grima hit Yarne to exactly 1HP before dancing him and killing Grima with a crit from the Vengeance Axe.

Chrom's damage (All+2/Skl+2/DS+/Prescience/Charm or Outdoor Fighter): 25(base) +1(mods) +2(All+2) +2(tonic) +48(Falchion) -58(Grima's Def) /2 =10. Chrom also has... One listed crit.

Yarne's atk (All+2/Str+2/Zeal/Underdog/Gamble) (yes, I used Donnel!Yarne- that's probably something I'd change if I did this again): 30(Barb) +9(+Spd/-Def Barb Avatar pairup) +2(All+2) +2(Str+2) +2(tonic) +18(Brave Axe) =63 -58 /4 =1 x2 whole damage to Grima. Avatar isn't much better, he does like 3 damage with Hauteclere or something. With Vengeance though he gets atk+32 (-1 for Vengeance Axe, +2 for S.Dance) which gives 96 -58 /4 =9 damage. A crit on that does 27, so if all of Chrom's DSes connect, Grima takes 1+1+10+10+10+10+10+10+27 damage, exactly enough for the kill. If Lucina procs Aether, Morgan does damage or Avatar does damage, Chrom could probably whiff a DS and still get the curbstomp.

Yarne's crit is at least 5(Venegance) +10(Solidarity) +15(support from Avatar A, Morgan A and Olivia) +10(Gamble) +5(Zeal) +10(Anathema) =55, so he'll have more than 10 listed crit on Grima.

Underdog worked well for me in Hard mode, and was my original plan to it (should I link it for ya'll?), but what surprises me is that you were able to actually reliable hit. I mean, with all the calcs I'm doing, hit rates are barely in the 50s across the board. Is that what you had experienced too?

[Czar_Yoshi]

Pretty much. Charm helps a bit, Hex and Anathema are extremely important, and Prescience is on Chrom for a reason, but hitrates definitely were a concern.

I might redo (and record) that run sometime once I finish my current project. It was... Intense. I'll need a new strategy for the first four chapters though, Frederick Emblem is no fun (for the record I only used one DLC map per chapter which involved clearing LB3 with all of its Lunatic boosts right after Cht.4 to maximize experience gain).

Edited May 16, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

As for your plan, all the Myrms look good on paper, but only 5 people at a time can attack Grima (with Chrom in tow), and (3 Myrms and 2 two-range units). The extra myrms would probably be better off as different classes, if only for the sake of being designated fodder for taking on Grima's 5 guards. Probably Gerome and Inigo, since their higher strength would be better with something like Hammer or Helswath or something, since Generals and all.

Well, all the extras listed were for flexibility, in case you decided you needed to use the kid to build something else to help with other aspects of the run. Sounds like you've already got that figured out, though.