Emmeryn's Sacrifice

[Beelzebub]

Alright, I just don't get this. The game tells us what a noble act her death was; so noble was it that it causes the fighting men of another country to give up, and she is spoken of as a paragon of virtue for years after her death. Her death was not a sacrifice. Her options were either to get shot by an arrow and die or fall to her death. Like a terminal cancer patient that would rather end their life on their own terms rather than die in a hospital. An understandable and perhaps respectable gesture, but not a sacrifice. Knowing King Gangrel, we have no reason to believe she was ever getting off that rock, no matter what Chrom did. You could argue that she was trying to save Chrom from his own stupidity, but that only speaks ill of Chrom, not well of Emmeryn.

[shadowofchaos]

This is the thing about this.

As I played the game more and more, plotholes are easier to see.

And yes, what you say is definitely spot on in regards to the significance of her sacrifice.

...That or the Perezians/Plegians are more dumb than we originally thought they were.

[Master Awesome]

That's why I honestly wasn't affected much by her death. They focused too much on making the surrounding characters/events dramatic, instead of actually making the death mean something.

Now Greil's death on the other hand... *goes to cry in the corner*

[Ownagepuffs]

Emmeryn is a terrible leader. There was a thread about this a while back but it's probably necro status now.

[Dandragon]

Something I'd like to also point out is the small part of a scene where Gangrel decides to send 3 barbarians to attack Emmeryn, yet when Chrom defends her and kills them its an "act of war." No, thats defending an otherwise helpless woman against three guys who have orders to kill her. Hell, why does he need Ylisse to declare war. There would be no difference if Gangrel just sent a bunch of Plegians to attack them.

I guess to try and justify her "sacrifice" is that Gangrel would only be satisfied with either the Fire Emblem or the death of Emmeryn. Except we find out later that even if Gangrel had gotten the Fire Emblem, nothing bad would of happened because only one of the fucking gems were in the thing.

...Can we change this to a topic of "are there any leaders in Fire Emblem that are worse than Emmeryn?"

[Czar_Yoshi]

Emmeryn is a terrible leader. There was a thread about this a while back but it's probably necro status now.

Just one? No, I'm pretty sure The Emmeryn Is A Bad Leader Thread has had many more incarnations than that.

My opinion on the matter hasn't changed since last time, and I'll leave it at that.

Edited July 15, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi

[Interceptor]

Alright, I just don't get this. The game tells us what a noble act her death was; so noble was it that it causes the fighting men of another country to give up, and she is spoken of as a paragon of virtue for years after her death. Her death was not a sacrifice. Her options were either to get shot by an arrow and die or fall to her death. Like a terminal cancer patient that would rather end their life on their own terms rather than die in a hospital. An understandable and perhaps respectable gesture, but not a sacrifice. Knowing King Gangrel, we have no reason to believe she was ever getting off that rock, no matter what Chrom did.

Oh really? How many people do you suppose are going to step off a cliff in that situation? You know, instead of curling up in a ball, urinating themselves, and praying for the tiniest chance of their own survival?

[spoiler=THE SHOCKING ANSWER]Not very many. People are cowards.

You could argue that she was trying to save Chrom from his own stupidity, but that only speaks ill of Chrom, not well of Emmeryn.

Or option C, it does both. Chrom could have made a poor decision (giving up the Fire Emblem), but she took away the path of reckless heroics on his part. Even Chrom, dumbass that he is, eventually realized what her calculation was.

You know, this shit isn't Shakespeare, but there are a couple bits here and there that are actually pretty alright. This is why we can't have nice things.

Edited July 15, 2014 by Interceptor

[Beelzebub]

Oh really? How many people do you suppose are going to step off a cliff in that situation? You know, instead of curling up in a ball, urinating themselves, and praying for the tiniest chance of their own survival?

This does not make her noble or her sacrifice meaningful.

Or option C, it does both. Chrom could have made a poor decision (giving up the Fire Emblem), but she took away the path of reckless heroics on his part. Even Chrom, dumbass that he is, eventually realized what her calculation was.

"Our hero, Emmeryn, savior from our king's stupidity!" While that might be true, the game does not play up that narrative for obvious reasons. That's irrelevant though, because it's not a sacrifice, which is the point of this topic.

Edited July 15, 2014 by Beelzebub

[BrightBow]

Her "sacrifice" was nothing but a glorified suicide and it's effect can only be explained through magic.
You can't even say that the sacrifice was to save Chrom from having to decide between his sister and the Emblem because she proclaimed that she would show that a "selfless act has the power to change the world". She planned all that ridiculous stuff.

As for all the praise, that's the way Emmeryn is handled. The game idealizes her to an embarrassing degree, yet the praise she gets is shallow and her actions reflective of nothing.
Like, remember when she was introduced?

Frederick: The exalt is a symbol of peace—Ylisse's most prized quality. Long ago, at the dawn of our age, the fell dragon tried to destroy the world. But the first exalt joined forces with the divine dragon and laid the beast low. Exalt Emmeryn reminds us all of the peace we fought for then.
Chrom: With Plegia poking at our borders, the people need her. She's a calming presence, when some might otherwise call for war.
Robin: Then the Ylissean people are indeed lucky to have her.
Lissa: She's also the best big sister anyone could ask for!

Let me summarize what we learned about her in just these few lines:

The Ylissean people are lucky to have her because she is a symbol of peace, a reminder of the peace that other people fought for, a calming presence and the best big sister anyone could ask for. Lots of praise but with very little substance. Well, except for that "voice against war bit". But remember, said war would be against a nation which is already actively attacking her people.

Edited July 15, 2014 by BrightBow

[Ownagepuffs]

The game shits all over her sacrifice by bringing her back. That's the worst part of all.

[BrightBow]

The game shits all over her sacrifice by bringing her back. That's the worst part of all.

I so have to disagree about that. At least on a fundamental level. Because there is so much potential in brining her back.

Like, she was a big influence on Chrom and he was very troubled about living up to her example. Seeing her react to the things he accomplished could more then make up for the idiotic circumstances that would be required to cause such an opportunity.

Of course she only supports with the Avatar, so all that potential goes to waste. She is not even the same person anymore, what with having no memories and all.

Edited July 15, 2014 by BrightBow

[Interceptor]

This does not make her noble or her sacrifice meaningful.

It does make your point ridiculous. Viewing the manner of Emm's death as irrelevant because she dies in either case (which is no guarantee, incidentally) is overly simplistic, and ignores the basic impact that a suicide in that situation would have, especially considering the mini-speech that she gave right before she took a step.

"Our hero, Emmeryn, savior from our king's stupidity!" While that might be true [...]

There's no "might" about it: that's the deal. Read Chrom's dialogue, he acknowledges it. Fin.

[Torva]

They said that she did it to show the war is meaningless, and to make sure that Gangrel couldn't have an option to have Chrom hand over the Emblem. A noble act, yes. But the recoil is what made her suicide BEYOND a stupid choice.

For one thing, now Chrom is the the king. That alone is a scary thought, considering how naive the guy is. He was clearly unprepaired, and to mention, he and the only other person qualified (Lissa) are AT WAR. Now Ylisse doesn't have a leader, and at a spike during the war. Now Plegia can just waltz on into Ylisse, and kill every single last one of them with ease. Not to mention, she could have gotten away so easily! If she just hung on a little bit longer, Chrom could have just killed off all the archerers, and she could have ran through that whole thing! Not a single person was watching her, she was just standing there! Not a single guard, an assasian, an excecutioner...not a single person! She was completely open to get attacked, but no one was there, and she could have simply ran away. But nope. She stood there. And died.

[Beelzebub]

It does make your point ridiculous. Viewing the manner of Emm's death as irrelevant because she dies in either case (which is no guarantee, incidentally) is overly simplistic, and ignores the basic impact that a suicide in that situation would have, especially considering the mini-speech that she gave right before she took a step.

It makes my point ridiculous that her not shitting herself makes her death a sacrifice? Non sequitur

[CyberNinja]

Getting an odd sense of deja vu...

Well on topic, I suppose her sacrifice didn't do too much for me. Though I was surprised at how underhanded Ylisse leader of pure pureness could be. The fact that she had equipped miracle made this much less of a sacrifice rather it was clearly a calculated move to cripple Gangrel's "blossoming" PR....

You know, I think I'd rather the other thread topic suggested: Leaders worse than Emmeryn.

Here are some worthy contestants....

Chrom: Trusting to a "you should have been shanked already" level....

Erirka: Lets thief take plot device..... Willingly gives evil sorcery plot device.... Gives demon possessed friend the plot device that was the only way to kill him, as well as a nice smack on the bum to send him on his way. You know... Many times I wonder if the game would be possible if Seth wasn't in the dialogue going "Erika stahp!"

Ephraim: He got better.... but much Leeroy in the beginning. Evidently he never read A Lord's Guide: Exiled From Your Throne... And again, thank god for Seth telling team subtext how to rule...

Oh where was I? Ah yes, anyway, this thread prob has a clone on page two.... did we really need this?

[Beelzebub]

Oh where was I? Ah yes, anyway, this thread prob has a clone on page two.... did we really need this?

From what I could tell Emmeryn's been criticized as a character and leader, which I would agree with, but is not the point of this topic. The point here is that her death was not actually a sacrifice at all, and thus the characters in the game have no reason to think it's the greatest act a human's ever done.

[CyberNinja]

Well in that case

Sacrifice:

An act of giving up something valued for the sake of something else regarded as more important or worthy.

Assuming of course she actually values her life... Then anyone saying it was not a sacrifice is wrong, obviously so. On the topic of the value of her sacrifice... She makes a pretty martyr if nothing else, but she was never really all that important a character. Her only role in the story was to die and become a constant push for the heroes to live up to her example.

When the characters talk about her, they tend to over blow her sacrifice and seem to make her out to be some sort of messianic figure. Remember though that for the most part, the only people that really talk about her in that way are people who would have been close to her and hurting from her death. In that sense I always saw it as them coping, after all, a meaningless death is much more depressing than a "heroic sacrifice."

There was also the plegian general... but he (from what i remember) was already losing faith in Gangrel as a leader and the war as a whole. Emmeryn's death was likely the final nail in the coffin so to speak. His lack of respect for his king likely transferred to his men who (as we get to see from cut scenes so we know just how evil Gangrel is) Gangrel has been killing and threatening for no real reason at all. Again, with all the evil acts we see Gangrel afflict on his own people, I cannot see how he was popular at all with his people. Frankly I'm surprised it even took Emmeryn's sacrifice for them to decide to abandon him.

[Ownagepuffs]

I so have to disagree about that. At least on a fundamental level. Because there is so much potential in brining her back.

Like, she was a big influence on Chrom and he was very troubled about living up to her example. Seeing her react to the things he accomplished could more then make up for the idiotic circumstances that would be required to cause such an opportunity.

Of course she only supports with the Avatar, so all that potential goes to waste. She is not even the same person anymore, what with having no memories and all.

But what was the point of killing off miss purity of pureness if she was just going to come back? Is Awakening that scared of killing people? Bringing her back was simply not a good move.

I won't say she's all bad. She must have done a lot of things right to make the country love her after their dickish dad almost drove Ylisse into the ground. But hey, that would actually require exposition and we all know Awakening hates exposition.

[Klokinator]

the praise she gets is shallow and her actions reflective of nothing.

Bu that's all FEA characters. Except Kellam, but nobody even noticed his great personality.

[Integrity]

re: bringing her back i always saw those dlc missions as, you know, postgame non-canon stuff. like creature campaign. so that people can recruit people that died in the game just to have in their army.

not some hokey retconning bullshit

but ok

[Interceptor]

It makes my point ridiculous that her not shitting herself makes her death a sacrifice?

No, the fact that you didn't draw a distinction between suicide and getting feathered is one of the (numerous) ways in which your point is ridiculous. She said her piece, and then took the decision out of everyone else's hands by stepping off a cliff. That's fairly weighty stuff.

Non sequitur

Oooh, someone learned a new term. Next step: using it in the correct context.

[Ownagepuffs]

re: bringing her back i always saw those dlc missions as, you know, postgame non-canon stuff. like creature campaign. so that people can recruit people that died in the game just to have in their army.

not some hokey retconning bullshit

but ok

Is Priam canon? I think he is, I'm not sure though. If Priam's canon, I'm sure the other spotpass paralogues are too.

[Integrity]

a thing can be "canon" without having a spot of impact on the awakening plot lmao

that's more what i meant by non-canon

[That Person's Name]

I thought her death was a bit more impactful on my second playthrough and even swelled up a little because I understood it a little bit more. To me her fall symbolized that she would rather jump off a cliff and end her life herself than see another war and more meaningless power struggles. It was the fact that they lost such a symbol of peace for all nations so suddenly because man couldn't remain in peace for even just 15 years that took a toll on the soldiers and made them question why they should fight for another power hungry king who cares little for anyone else's life.

Also as to the fact that she was going to die anyway, I feel like suicide is more impactful for reasons I stated before and the people in that era are less informed than we are today, so they might not have known Gangrel was going to kill her anyway and might've just heard "The Exalt committed suicide!" or something to that effect without having witnessed themself unlike the player.

Have to agree on the numerous plot holes though that you see on subsequent playthroughs, oh well what doesn't have plot holes anymore.

[Moira]

The way I see it, her whole speech was to show Plegians how much the Ylisseans don't want to fight with them and how it's going to get them nowhere. I am inclined to believe that most of the soldiers already didn't want to fight and Emmeryn's whole speech/death was what pushed them over the edge to actually deserting. Also, being faced with death and still remaining composed says a lot about her character and willpower. I would also say that it showed that she was completely willing to die for her country and shows that she wouldn't cling on to any hope for her own salvation and would sacrifice herself to keep the Fire Emblem safe. (and yes, safe from Chrom and his potentially bad choice). Essentially shes showing that her life is less important than the Fire Emblem and she's not going to try to worm my way out of my death by trading it.

So all in all, I would say that her sacrifice was a largely positive thing for her as a character and shows a lot to like about her. And yes, it's awakening so a lot of what happens because of it is far fetched.

As a side note for Emmeryn in general, I think she'd be a really good ruler if she only had advisers to keep her naive and emotionally charged decisions in check.

Edited July 16, 2014 by Fluorspar