Ready for Apotheosis?

[Waifu Severa]

Im planning on getting Apotheosis, however i do not have Limit Breaker. I want to know if i can still beat it without it.

Heres my team(also i would like some suggestions of better skills/classes):

Frederick!Gerome @WyvernLord- Luna, Pavise, Aegis, Dual Guard+, Renewal

Sumia!Lucina@Great Lord- Galeforce, RFking, Aether, Luna, Dual Strike+

Stahl ! Inigo @Assassin- Galeforce, Luna, Astra, Armsthrift, Swordfaire

Male MU- Armsthrift, Luna, Ignis, Astra, Vantage

Kellam!Owain @Assassin-Luna, Galeforce, Astra, Swordfaire, Vantage

Tharja!Morgan @Dark Flier- Galeforce, Armsthrift, Luna, Tomefaire, Astra

MU!Noire @Sorceror- Galeforce, Armsthrift, Luna, Vantage/Tomefaire, Hit +20

Chrom!Cynthia @Dark Flier- Galeforce, Aether, Luna, Renewal, Tomefaire

Lon'qu!Severa @Assassin- Galeforce, Armsthrift, Swordfaire, Astra, Lifetaker

Gaius!Nah @Manakete- Galeforce, Astra, Vantage, Lifetaker, Deliverer

Henry!Brady @Sage- Galeforce, Luna, Tomefaire, Lifetaker, Anathema

Donnel!Kjelle @Paladin- Galeforce, Luna, Armsthrift, Renewal, Dual Guard+

Gregor!Yarne @Berserker- Armsthrift, Axefaire, Astra, Vantage, Wrath

Ricken!Laurent @Sage- Magic+2, Luna, Tomefaire, Lifetaker, Dual Guard+\

And then of course there's Chrom, my rally bots, and rescue staves.

I want to know what i can edit with my skills/classes, and dont include dlc skills.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Waifu Severa

[Czar_Yoshi]

What are your pairings (for the children), are all your stats capped, and are you going for Normal or Secret?

[Waifu Severa]

I didnt marry the children yet because i dont know which are the best :/(Inigo and Severa are the only ones currently married)

But yeah i did max stat caps of course, and i dont know anything about secret or normal since i dont have Apotheosis yet, but im guessing Secret is harder so i will go for that. Anyway are my skills/classes and stuff good enuff?

[Czar_Yoshi]

If you can, do yourself a favor and get Limit Breaker. It took several months after Apo's release for people to even realize it was possible to do without LB, and that's with fully optimized pairings. If you can't get it, at least do Normal Apo first.

Anyway, here's a rough estimate of what you're up against. There are five waves of enemies, defeating one brings out the other (you don't get automatically healed) and all of them have capped stats at minimum. It's not uncommon to see enemies with stats 20 above their caps, and some of them go even further. 80+ Atk is the norm here, everyone has hackforged Silver weapons at the least. Every single enemy also has Dragonskin (the final boss's signature skill). Lunatic+ skills are everywhere- Hawkeye is very common, on the Normal path pretty much everyone has either Aegis+ or Pavise+, on Secret some enemies have both of them. There's an enemy in Secret with Aegis+, Pavise+ and Dragonskin- a 75% damage reduction- on top of 70 Def and 70 Spd, and his attack is a guaranteed ORKO if it hits. And he's the boss of the second wave. Secret goes further with the Lunatic+ skills, throwing Counter and Luna+ around like toys. Some enemies even have Vantage+. Normal has lots of Longbow Snipers and Vengeance, Secret has Dark Fliers with Shadowgift and Mire. There are also enemies in Secret with 65% Aether activation rates. To add a cherry on top, the last two waves of Secret have a turn limit. To access Secret, all you have to do is clear the first wave of Normal in two turns or less.

Anyway, as for your team, you're going to want to pair your units with an emphasis on some units be designated leads and some being designated supports- this lets you be much more specific with your skills. The main rule of this is to always have Galeforce on your lead- so Gerome, Yarne and Laurent are going to always be in the back. That means they don't need any sort of defensive/healing/proc (Luna/Sol/etc) skills, so give them Atk/Skl boosting skills, Dual Guard+, Anathema, etc. Leads want procs (usually Luna), Galeforce, and if you're going to use defensive skills use them there (though they usually don't do much good). For whom to pair whom with, just try to pair up units who's support bonuses will compliment eachother (Sage x Dark Flier is pretty popular).

For actually playing the map, bring a ton of Valkyries and Falcon Knights from Spotpass armed with Rescue Staves. Your general strategy should be to advance, kill as much stuff as you can with Galeforce, and then use your Staffbots to get out of enemy range so you don't take a beating on enemy phase. As long as you fully heal each turn, it's pretty hard to die while fighting exclusively on Player Phase (unless you get careless around Vengeance). having Rallybots from Spotpass is also important- there are ten Rallies in total, so you can give five each to two units and cover them all. All Rallies combined equals Limit Breaker and 4 Lck and 2 Mov, which is pretty major. Also bring Olivia as a Dancer. You may have to leave a few children behind to bring more Staffbots (Apo has a deployment cap of 20), but enemies are spread fairly thin in Normal Apo so those extra combatants would usually do nothing anyway (leave out the ones with the lowest Mov, because they're likely to contribute the least otherwise).

[Waifu Severa]

Thank you so much Czar! You summed up a lot of stuff for me. I never understood support units and leads, but u really covered that for me well. I guess i have to rethink half of my sets...Also i dont know if i can get limit breaker :(

Can u help me see if these are good sets for Lead/Support with their respective spouses? L=Lead and S=Support

L-Assassin Severa-Galeforce, Swordsfaire, Armsthrift, Astra, Deliverer/Speed +2

S-Assassin Inigo-Galeforce, DG+, Swordfaire, Armsthrift, Luna

L-Great Lord Lucina-Galeforce, RFK, Aether, Luna, Dual Strike+

S-Wyvern Lord Gerome- DG+, Dual Support+, Strength +2, Deliverer, Luna

L-Dark Flier Morgan-GaleForce, Tomefaire, Armsthrift, Luna, Astra

S-Sage Laurent-Tomefaire, Magic +2, DG+, Anathema, Dual Support+

L-Sorceror Noire-Galeforce, Armsthrift, Luna, Hit +20, Tomefaire

S-Sage Brady-Galeforce, Tomefaire, Anathema, Hex, Magic +2

L-Manakete Nah-Galeforce, Astra, LifeTaker, Deliverer, Vantage

S-Berserker Yarne- Axefaire, Armsthrift, Deliverer, Astra, filler(No more support skills)

L-Assassin Owain-Galeforce, Luna, Astra, Swordfaire, Miracle/Vantage

S-Paladin Kjelle-Galeforce, DG+, Dual support+, Armsthrift, Lancefaire

Btw, i never actually married these children yet. So if there is anything i messed up on, hopefully someone can point it out and fix my mistake. And that leaves Cynthia all alone. I never really liked her anyway. Also i did put at least 1 Proc skill on some supporters only because they didnt have any more supporting skills.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Waifu Severa

[Czar_Yoshi]

This might be useful to you: http://serenesforest.net/wiki/index.php/Awakening_Enemy_Data:_Apotheosis

For an in-depth readup on how pairup boosts work, look here: http://serenesforest.net/fe13/double.html

Severa and Inigo: Severa might fare better as a Wyvern Lord with Lancefaire- she's fast enough not to care that Wyvern is slow (on Normal Apo, at least. On Secret she'll want LB to do Wyvern). Also switch Astra for Vengeance, without LB Astra won't have a very high activation rate (even with it, it's pretty low), but Vengeance almost always works 100% of the time. Inigo is good, but you may want to replace one of DG+/AT with Astra for a higher chance of activating a proc.

Give Lucina Lancefaire over RK, it'll boost her average damage output a lot more. Luna does nothing on supports, so swap it on Gerome for something like Outdoor Fighter.

Swap Astra for Ignis on Morgan.

Sorcerers are generally outclassed by Sages and Dark Fliers, so consider one of those for Noire instead (much more Skl and better pairup boosts). Swap her Hit+20 for Ignis as well. Brady has Luna and should use it over Hex or Mag+2 (probably Hex, magical units don't like to fight at 1-range).

Manaketes are OK in Normal Apo if you take care of them (thanks to no Counter/Luna+) but for an offensive Nah setup you'd be better going as a Swordfaire Assassin or a Lancefaire Falcon Knight. If you can give her a magical husband, she could also make a good Dark Flier. For Yarne, Astra does nothing in the back- give him Str+2 (inherited from Panne) and Axebreaker or Bowbreaker instead.

Owain is usually better as a Sage- Kjelle can support him as a Dark Flier or Valkyrie (though she'll lack Tomefaire). Instead of Miracle/Vantage give Owain Mov+1 or Renewal or something (or give him DG+, and then give Kjelle Underdog in it's place).

Chrom!Cynthia is actually really strong. If you don't mind swapping Kjelle for her, she'll more than pull her weight- make her a Sage/Dark Flier and give her Aether/Luna/Tomefaire/Galeforce/either DG+ or Renewal.

[Waifu Severa]

This might be useful to you: http://serenesforest.net/wiki/index.php/Awakening_Enemy_Data:_Apotheosis

For an in-depth readup on how pairup boosts work, look here: http://serenesforest.net/fe13/double.html

Severa and Inigo: Severa might fare better as a Wyvern Lord with Lancefaire- she's fast enough not to care that Wyvern is slow (on Normal Apo, at least. On Secret she'll want LB to do Wyvern). Also switch Astra for Vengeance, without LB Astra won't have a very high activation rate (even with it, it's pretty low), but Vengeance almost always works 100% of the time. Inigo is good, but you may want to replace one of DG+/AT with Astra for a higher chance of activating a proc.

Give Lucina Lancefaire over RK, it'll boost her average damage output a lot more. Luna does nothing on supports, so swap it on Gerome for something like Outdoor Fighter.

Swap Astra for Ignis on Morgan.

Sorcerers are generally outclassed by Sages and Dark Fliers, so consider one of those for Noire instead (much more Skl and better pairup boosts). Swap her Hit+20 for Ignis as well. Brady has Luna and should use it over Hex or Mag+2 (probably Hex, magical units don't like to fight at 1-range).

Manaketes are OK in Normal Apo if you take care of them (thanks to no Counter/Luna+) but for an offensive Nah setup you'd be better going as a Swordfaire Assassin or a Lancefaire Falcon Knight. If you can give her a magical husband, she could also make a good Dark Flier. For Yarne, Astra does nothing in the back- give him Str+2 (inherited from Panne) and Axebreaker or Bowbreaker instead.

Owain is usually better as a Sage- Kjelle can support him as a Dark Flier or Valkyrie (though she'll lack Tomefaire). Instead of Miracle/Vantage give Owain Mov+1 or Renewal or something (or give him DG+, and then give Kjelle Underdog in it's place).

Chrom!Cynthia is actually really strong. If you don't mind swapping Kjelle for her, she'll more than pull her weight- make her a Sage/Dark Flier and give her Aether/Luna/Tomefaire/Galeforce/either DG+ or Renewal.

Thank you so much for helping me out again!

I really like Assassin Severa, she's my fav unit so i dont think i can change her, although astra for vengeance might be better.

Im shocked u want me to take out RFK, isnt that one of the best skills?

Also i thought sorceror was the most op class in the game with Aversa's Night/Waste? Dark Flier is really cool tho, but my Sorceror Noire pwns all. I'll have to give Dark Flier Noire a try sometime.

I dont really like Nah either, but maybe i can try her as Assassin and see how she works.

Ik Owain is better as magical, but i did do Kellam!Owain, which isnt really magical based. Also, SWORD HAND! But if i were to make him a Sage, Cynthia can be his wife as a Dark Flier like u said.

[Czar_Yoshi]

If you want Severa as an Assassin, then consider changing Inigo to a Berserker instead so your offenses remain intact- have him use Galeforce/Axefaire/Hit+20/Luna/Astra or Armsthrift.

RK sounds cool, but when you bring out the math it doesn't pull it's weight. Here's a little comparison so you can see what I mean. I'll use Aether and Luna, vs an enemy with 55 Def, Dragonskin and no PavGis+. I'll also assume my Skl and Atk are 70 (they should both be higher, but you're not using other DLC- it won't change the results significantly if they are).

Damage from one normal attack (no Faire/Luna) is 7. Faire adds 3 damage, Luna adds 14 damage (so 24 damage with Luna+Faire).

Aether rate with no RK is 35%, Luna rate with no RK is 45.5%, whiff is 19.5%. Aether with RK is 45%, Luna rate with RK is 44%, whiff is 11%.

With RK, average damage output per swing is thus 7*.11 + 21*.44 + 28*.45 = .77 + 9.24 + 12.6 = 22.61 average damage per swing.

With Faire, it's 10*.195 + 24*.455 + 34*.35 = 1.95 + 10.92 + 11.9 = 24.77 average damage per swing.

That's more than 2 more damage per swing in favor of Faire, and over 4 swings it's 8 damage, which amounts to 10% of an enemy's HP. What's more, the minimum amount of damage a Faire can do is higher, so the worst case scenario is better. If you do eventually get DLC and want to revise your skillsets, this also holds true for RK+Luna vs Aether+Luna, though the difference there is a lot more pronounced.

Sorc is considered OP because it walks right over stuff on enemy phase thanks to its HP restoring abilities. However, in Apo things have much higher Atk then elsewhere and Dragonskin effectively cuts the amount of HP you recover in half, not to mention that maingame enemies have very bad Res in general. As for Waste, it's generally hurt by its poor Hit compared to Celica's Gale, which is made worse by Sorc's low Skl. Finally, Sorcs give worse pairup boosts than Sages for when they're in the back (less Mag, and +Def instead of +Skl). This last bit is subjective, but I also think they're ugly.

I actually find Nah really interesting because, by virtue of being so bad, she can do things that all the other girls are too important to do (female dedicated support). Of course, she's still the first one to get benched if Avatar-M marries first gen... Unless he married Nowi.

Kellam actually doesn't hurt Owain's Mag- it's his Spd that will suffer.

[Waifu Severa]

Berserker Inigo eh? interesting.

And thanks, i'll try Lancefaire.

And when you said that "they're ugly" were u talking about Sorcs or Sages? Because i DREAD the look of sages which is why i personally hate them and would rather go Dark Flier instead.

So that means i will have to bench Nah and let Kjelle marry Yarne, and make Kjelle the lead?

Also since Owain is hurt by his poor speed mod, should i let Cynthia be the Lead and make Owain the support as Sage?

Forgot to mention my Avatar's Flaw/Asset is +Speed -Luck

[Czar_Yoshi]

I was specifically talking about Sorcs. And just so you know, there are two different Sage models.

In total you've got 7 girls and 6 boys. The one who gets benched should either be Nah or Kjelle- if you want to bench Kjelle, just swap her with Cynthia. If you want to bench Nah, put Kjelle where Nah is now and Cynthia where Kjelle is.

The fastest unavoidable enemy in Normal Apo has 57 Spd. Owain is one away from the 62 Spd needed to double with a tonic, Dark Flier pairup and Rally, so he misses that one but can double everything else. I wouldn't worry too much about his Spd. If you fight any of the fliers, he won't be able to double their bosses, though (you get to choose between two sets of enemies on waves 2 and 4).

[Waifu Severa]

So it will look like this:

L-Assassin Severa-Galeforce, Swordsfaire, Armsthrift, Astra/Vengeance, Deliverer

S-Berserker Inigo- Galeforce, Hit+20, Axefaire, Armsthrift, Luna

L-Great Lord Lucina-Galeforce, Lancefaire/RFK, Aether, Luna, Dual Strike+

S-Wyvern Lord Gerome- DG+, Dual Support+, Strength +2, Deliverer, Outdoor Fighter

L-Dark Flier Morgan-GaleForce, Tomefaire, Armsthrift, Luna, Ignis

S-Sage Laurent-Tomefaire, Magic +2/Hex, DG+, Anathema, Dual Support+

L-Dark Flier Noire-Galeforce, Armsthrift, Luna, Ignis, Tomefaire (Morgan clone)

S-Sage Brady-Galeforce, Tomefaire, Anathema, Luna, Magic +2

L-Assassin Kjelle-Galeforce, Armsthrift, Luna, Swordfaire, Astra

S-Berserker Yarne- Axefaire, Armsthrift, Deliverer, Bowbreaker, Axebreaker

L-Dark Flier Cynthia-Galeforce, Aether, Luna, Tomefaire, DG+

S-Sage Owain-Galeforce, Luna, Tomefaire, DG+, Astra/Vantage

So i decided Kjelle should be an Assassin Lead and bench Nah. Sucks that they only made 13 children. Anyway, is there anything from this Apo list that i need to edit? Also for my MU, i dont know if he should be a Grandmaster or whatever since he doesnt get Galeforce. Does that mean he should be a support unit and let some other A rank support with Galeforce be the lead, or just let him be the lead even without Galeforce?

Edited July 19, 2014 by Waifu Severa

[Czar_Yoshi]

That should be good, yes.

The way people usually get around only having 13 children is having Avatar marry a child (yes, you can do that) so there are 7 2nd gen pairs. If Avatar marries 1st gen, someone's going to get benched, and most of the 1st gen units are pretty bad so Avatar will probably be out of luck as well (the only partners good enough for Apo are Chrom, Sumia, Cordelia and Aversa). Avatar could go with Nah at A, though their dual strike rate will be very shaky.

Anyway that should be enough for combat pairs. Except for the final wave, enemies come spread fairly thin in Normal Apo so you won't be in too much danger of getting overwhelmed. Make your other units be Chrom, Olivia, two Rallybots and as many Staffbots (for Rescue) as you can fit.

Good luck.

[Waifu Severa]

Aww man, Avatar pairing with Nah is bad..

Oh well. Btw, would this be a good set for Avatar-

Grandmaster-Armsthrift, Luna, Ignis, DG+, Swordfaire

Hold on, so that means i can bring Sumia and pair her up with Chrom?

One more thing, who can be rally bots/staff bots?

[Czar_Yoshi]

Grandmaster has no standout stats and isn't that good. If you want to use a Sword, be a Hero/Paladin/Assassin. If you want to use Tomes, be a Sage. Those procs only work if you're leading, Avatar is probably going to be supporting someone with Galeforce due to having none himself. You could also put him with Cordelia at A if you don't like Nah.

Especially if Chrom's wife is Sumia or Avatar, it's a good idea to have him fighting. Give Chrom Bowfaire/DS+/Charm/DG+/Skl+2 as a Sniper or Bow Knight and give Sumia GF/Luna/Tomefaire/Renewal/Pavise as a Dark Flier (Pavise isn't that good in Apo, but Sumia doesn't have much else and if it activates, it might save a staffbot a turn thanks to Renewal healing all the damage). They should be powerful enough to have a guaranteed 6HKO on any enemy though, so Sumia might never take damage. Who knows.

Use Spotpass/DLC units as your rallybots/staffbots. Rallybots should be Falcos, Staffbots should be Falcos/Valkyries.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi

[Waifu Severa]

Ok, i can make MU Assassin since its my favorite class. Also Is Nah good as a Falcon Knight? Falcos were always one of my favorites, but idk if it is good for her. If not, i can just make her an assassin with the Avatar.

[Czar_Yoshi]

She could be. Falcos have fairly low Str, though. Combine that with their low DS rate and Nah's lack of a good proc, and they might not get many kills- but it should be OK. Make sure to give Nah Lancefaire.

[GinRei]

That should be good, yes.

The way people usually get around only having 13 children is having Avatar marry a child (yes, you can do that) so there are 7 2nd gen pairs. If Avatar marries 1st gen, someone's going to get benched, and most of the 1st gen units are pretty bad so Avatar will probably be out of luck as well (the only partners good enough for Apo are Chrom, Sumia, Cordelia and Aversa). Avatar could go with Nah at A, though their dual strike rate will be very shaky.

Anyway that should be enough for combat pairs. Except for the final wave, enemies come spread fairly thin in Normal Apo so you won't be in too much danger of getting overwhelmed. Make your other units be Chrom, Olivia, two Rallybots and as many Staffbots (for Rescue) as you can fit.

Good luck.

Assuming one didn't care about using Chrom's wife for combat purposes, couldn't another way to make up the child count difference with a 2nd Gen Morgan be to pair Chrom up with one of his daughters (or if Avatar is female, sons)? His DS+ would replicate the difference from missing the S rank.

Of course, this is if you aren't using him to pair with your Avatar for combat purposes too.

Edited July 19, 2014 by GinRei

[Czar_Yoshi]

Assuming one didn't care about using Chrom's wife for combat purposes, couldn't another way to make up the child count difference with a 2nd Gen Morgan be to pair Chrom up with one of his daughters (or if Avatar is female, sons)? His DS+ would replicate the difference from missing the S rank.

Of course, this is if you aren't using him to pair with your Avatar for combat purposes too.

It's a good strategy, but the reason I didn't recommend it here is because then Avatar would get benched (Tharja is a bad support) and an Avatar pair + a 100% Dual Strike pair is better than a single normal pair. It's worth it if Avatar is married to Sumia or Cordelia though, especially if Chrom is supporting Inigo (then you get Agg on both units, which is very fun).

Chrom could also fight at A with Avatar, but that pair would have no Galeforce.

[Waifu Severa]

Would benching Avatar be a good idea? Sure hes the avatar and all, but having the 6 pairs of children makes 12 people, chrom and sumia make 14, olivia makes 15, 2 rally botters makes 17. If i have Avatar and Nah/Cordelia, it would make it 19, making only room for 1 staff bot. If i drop Avatar and Cordelia/Nah, i have room for 3 staffbots.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Waifu Severa

[Czar_Yoshi]

Yes, you can bench him- or use him as a Staffbot/Rallybot if you still want to deploy him but don't want him fighting. With the exception of Wave 5, all the enemies come in well-spread-out groups of five (in Normal).

To be honest, when I first did Apo (both paths) I only had 3 combat pairs (and like 7 Staffbots) and it worked out fine. I was using LB, though.

[Waifu Severa]

Oh cool, thanks for helping me a lot. Also u said u had 7 staffbots. Is 3 even enough?

[Czar_Yoshi]

Should be, as long as you're careful- mine were basically redundant protection against player error. As long as you either realize you've overcommitted and draw back early or risk a rush and succeed, you'll be fine- the only trouble will be if you risk a rush and it turns out not to be enough, you won't be able to get all your units out there.

[Waifu Severa]

Good news: I am getting Limit Breaker along with Apo tomorrow, although i still dont have my units ready with their right skills and stuff. Man im gonna have to do extreme grinding tonight

[Waifu Severa]

Another thing. Can Severa be Galeforce, Armsthrift, Vantage, Vengeance, Limit Breaker, or is VV only for magers?

Its either that or Galeforce, Armsthrift, Swordfaire, Limit Breaker, Astra

Edited July 19, 2014 by Waifu Severa

[Czar_Yoshi]

Good about LB, but remember that Rouges and Redeemers 3 isn't a cakewalk and you'll have to do it ~15 times if you want LB on all your units. Apo doesn't change with the difficulty of your file but RaR3 does, so hopefully you're not playing Lunatic.

Severa can try Vantage/Vengeance as a Dark Flier, but the main problem is that VV means you die if you miss a Dual Strike, and thus 100% DS is required.

Your Severa is an Assassin, right? I'd use LB/GF/SF/Vengeance/AT. Vengeance is a much better proc than Astra due to its higher activation rate.

You should be able to do Secret with LB, but you'll have to be careful since you don't have Aggressor (the bosses will probably require several units attacking to take down).