Do you like the way DLC was handled in Awakening?

[UnknownUber]

If so,

Would you mind more focus on downloadable content for future FE games?

[IceBrand]

Any DLC that's made month after the game's release is ok with. I'll gladly want see DLC if needed for the next FE.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Yes to both. Awakening's DLC worked because they used it the way DLC should be used: no microtransactions, no "keys", only additional content made after the game was released that added onto an already complete game. I wouldn't mind them doing that again, but only if it's done the same way as it is now- it shouldn't feature an increased role in the game. More maps would be fine (depending on the price) but the game shouldn't be about it.

[Passionfruit Cappuccino]

Well, yes, they certainly did a good job in releasing it. It good that they didnt make it so that it would hinder your abilities in the main game, rather a bunch of nice add ons. I think they should keep the same focus as they did for awakening for future games as, if they went too far, it might go out of control and become disliked (ie. less content in the actual game and more DLC to make up for it)

[Beelzebub]

I think it's absurd all of it costs as much as the main game, but it never felt like they removed any part of the game to make it, it is just a bonus. I'd like something more along the lines of BS Fire Emblem, bonus maps that have story relevance and characters and mechanics that are new to the game, while still making the game feel complete as is. However, I think grinding DLCs are unethical and encourage developers to make their game difficult to gain resources in order to entice people into buying it.

[Czar_Yoshi]

But the maingame is easily beatable without DLC on all but the hardest difficulty (it's still doable), and that's Masochists Only mode so it's supposed to be hard. I like the grinding maps because they're a good way to catch the rest of my units up once I've cleared the main game and am prepping for the harder DLC.

[Dragonslayer9x]

The DLC was really well done. Many maps have unique dialogue for a variety of characters which are fun to discover and there are helpful items to be picked up from some of the maps which isn't needed but it is nice to have. What really sold me on the dlc was the scramble pack and the future past pack. Those packs are just so full of stuff (future past almost felt like a new game, with a better ending) and add a lot of replay value for finding new relationship combinations to get new experiences on those maps.

The DLC adds to the experience and isn't required to beat the game (which is what DLC should do). The DLC does give you a slight edge in streetpass but is easily beatable without DLC (this would be more difficult to balance in some kind of online play Fire Emblem, but as a single player experience it works well)

[Refa]

It should be a lot cheaper. SMTIV DLC for quicker grinding costs like $1-$1.50 while the FE13 DLC for the same functions costs $2.50-$3.00. Fuck the Nintendo tax.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Refa

[Kreekakon]

I personally thought that it may have been a bit on the expensive side, but for the most part I found the DLC enjoyable enough to warrant the purchases.

[Alertcircuit]

Isn't it possible to just grind on Spotpass character maps instead? I know I did Mist's level a few times trying to bring Donnel up to speed. Although, I don't recall Bullions spawning.

[Book Bro]

I did. The old maps upgraded to 3D was a nice touch, though if they did DLC again for the next one I probably wouldn't buy the maps that didn't come with a skill or class.

The best ones for me were the ones in the second "season" of DLC, especially the Future Past pack. I would be interested in similar bonus content in the future.

Spotpass was very cool. It should definitely return, but they shouldn't try to make every story character recruitable again. Instead they could maybe make a few NPCs recruitable and only one or two of the more sympathetic villains, it'd be a nice way to add chapters without sacrificing the impact of deaths in the main storyline.

[Phoenix Wright]

yes, i think they did a great job. the one issue is/was pricing. v

It should be a lot cheaper. SMTIV DLC for quicker grinding costs like $1-$1.50 while the FE13 DLC for the same functions costs $2.50-$3.00. Fuck the Nintendo tax.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Isn't it possible to just grind on Spotpass character maps instead? I know I did Mist's level a few times trying to bring Donnel up to speed. Although, I don't recall Bullions spawning.

Not possible on Lunatic(+), the enemies give only 1 exp per kill and you'll just break all your weapons for nothing.

[sirmola]

Not possible on Lunatic(+), the enemies give only 1 exp per kill and you'll just break all your weapons for nothing.

It is possible, by using renown money to hire a logbook max level +luck avatar with despoil/armsthrift/something awesome (or just armthrift and a forged lief's blade), to make enough money to get weapons to grind spotpass teams 1 exp at a time, it's just really abusive and boring.

Edited August 3, 2014 by sirmola

[Airship Canon]

For the most part, definitely. Prices aren't that harsh (Don't even have to say much, because PC games frequently have similar levels of amount of content compared to cost of main game. [~1/3-1/2 ~= 110% of the original cost].), content wasn't zapped from the game and is clearly added on (outside of perhaps how the skills function, since they work as "outrealm skill") and it's all entirely optional.

... it also adds in an actual postgame.

Now something I will say is that our ambitious "final challenge map" was horrifically undertuned. Something like that should NEVER be balanced for the lowest common denominator, and instead should be balanced "on the bleeding edge" (as the WoW devs described it (while trying to defend their "Concentrated Coolness" stance... which I get the idea, but have to disagree with their approach))...

Apoth (and anything similar) should not be clearable without optimization and full use of every resource a player is given [YES, that'd mean you need DLC to beat the DLC.]. The likes of the challenge runs that occur within are FIRMLY within the realm of "**** that shouldn't happen". As opposed to what it is.

But that's less an issue with the DLC in general, but a single weakly designed map (that's still, by its nature more impressive than the whole of the main game).

...oh, and yeah, DLC should respond to L+ on scaling maps. FFS.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Apoth (and anything similar) should not be clearable without optimization and full use of every resource a player is given [YES, that'd mean you need DLC to beat the DLC.]. The likes of the challenge runs that occur within are FIRMLY within the realm of "**** that shouldn't happen". As opposed to what it is.

The problem is that the current lengths people have pushed the game to are probably far beyond what the devs considered possible (and were able to do themselves). Given the state of the metagame when Apo was first released, it wasn't that far from what you want at the time, the metagame's just advanced way past it by now. So the solution wouldn't be to change anything regarding Apo, just to release another map at a later date that's a lot harder.

Which they could still do, if they wanted to.

[Airship Canon]

The problem is that the current lengths people have pushed the game to are probably far beyond what the devs considered possible (and were able to do themselves). Given the state of the metagame when Apo was first released, it wasn't that far from what you want at the time, the metagame's just advanced way past it by now. So the solution wouldn't be to change anything regarding Apo, just to release another map at a later date that's a lot harder.

Which they could still do, if they wanted to.

Apoth released NA: 5.23.13

Date I firmly stated my stance that it's horrifically undertuned: 9.22.13

Pushing the meta has little to do with it, especially when the game doesn't get patched.

Those portions of the game should be BUILT for it as-is.

(Basically? Apoth should push about 20 points more in most stats [especially the defenses (E.G. Nightmare Sniper should have 90 DEF, 66 RES [if not 70+-- I'd say 75, TBQH.]) (AND SPEED-- Anna should be at 90, if not 99.)] on ALL Enemies. (Most, if not all enemies should be running 99 HP, with bosses at the good 'ole 120. as well).

That'd tune out underrunning straight up.)

...If you can roll it easily, you're above the level of content. If you rock Limit Breaker and Rallies [AKA: Full Power] you faceroll apoth with little-to-no-resistance. (Instead, those should be REQUIRED en absolute to have a smidge of a chance-- attempting to do so without them should just get YOU steamrolled, regardless of what you brought.)

[Ownagepuffs]

DLC was handled well. We got a full game which didn't cut any content. Dread Fighter and Bride are very strong classes without feeling like Pay2Win. A lot of it is nostalgia/fanservice too. They even gave a penultimate challenge in Apotheosis.

Speaking of which, I think Apotheosis is a pretty well designed map. At least, some of the enemies inside of it are. Thronie and the Sniper Brigade come to mind.

Apotheosis/TSON II? I wonder what that would be like. 80 Speed/100 Skill Lethality+/Vantage+//Hawkeye/Galeforce Assassin boss? Higher Res across the board? Doubling defenses which means every enemy doesn't have to use a skill slot on Dragonskin? A smaller map which is less forgiving to rescue? Disabling rescue like in Future Past? I'd seriously like to know how they could improve on it.

[Airship Canon]

DLC was handled well. We got a full game which didn't cut any content. Dread Fighter and Bride are very strong classes without feeling like Pay2Win. A lot of it is nostalgia/fanservice too. They even gave a penultimate challenge in Apotheosis.

Speaking of which, I think Apotheosis is a pretty well designed map. At least, some of the enemies inside of it are. Thronie and the Sniper Brigade come to mind.

Apotheosis/TSON II? I wonder what that would be like. 80 Speed/100 Skill Lethality+/Vantage+//Hawkeye/Galeforce Assassin boss? Higher Res across the board? Doubling defenses which means every enemy doesn't have to use a skill slot on Dragonskin? A smaller map which is less forgiving to rescue? Disabling rescue like in Future Past? I'd seriously like to know how they could improve on it.

Some, maybe, Thronie's pretty beastly [but even he and his doubles could use more defense... and speed] and Nightmare Sniper's offense is just about perfect(Read: He attacks, it's basically RNG if you live or not, unless you use 1 specific build that is not all that useful.)

The majority of the field, no. The fact remains, you do not need to be cutting edge to have a relatively easy time with the map.

Double Defense would actually make the maps impossible on all levels in some areas. [Nightmare Sniper would legitimately be impossible to hurt physically]

Double HP would give approximately the same effect as Dragonskin without Lethality/Counter negation. (x.5 Damage has roughly the same yield as x2 HP. If it takes 4 attacks to kill an 80 HP dragonskin unit [20/hit] ...if they had 160 HP but no dragonskin... it'd still take 4 attacks [40/hit])

[Czar_Yoshi]

My point was that the devs can't really make a map that's just barely possible if they don't know the furthest extent they can push a team. They might derp hard and accidentally make something that's legitimately impossible outside of insane luck with Dual Guards, or they might make something that can still be trivialized with some strategy they overlooked/didn't know about.

And there are actually 3 builds that can get guaranteed survival against NS (Dodgetank, Manakete on the Throne and 100% Aegis) but w/e.

Anyway, in a harder Apo I'd like to see (in addition to higher stats across the board): more Braves, more Vanatge+ and 1-range Counter, +Crit hackforges, enemies with Boots, 100+ Atk Mires, enemies able to equip more than 5 skills at a time, more Breakers (especially Tome/Bow), more PavGis combos, and enemy Manaketes (including Earth Dragons). Stuff I'm on the fence about include more/stricter time limits, automatic reinforcements, enemies that know how to use Rescue, and zerg rushes. If new skills are an option, I'd like to see ones that affect the support unit. The reward would also have to be something extremely cool, such as a scroll that teaches DS+ or RG, more Boots, or an item that allows you to equip more skills at once.

Or I'd also settle for a Pit-of-100-trials type Apo that starts off extremely easy, and keeps going for way more than 5 rounds (not necessarily 100, but close) with the normal S.Apo level of difficulty somewhere around 60-70 (if it was 100 waves). Battle saves would obviously be disabled in Cas. That would be cool, and add player endurance as a bigger factor.

Edited August 4, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi

[Interceptor]

If so,

Would you mind more focus on downloadable content for future FE games?

Yes, they handled DLC more or less perfectly in Awakening. There was free stuff, there was paid stuff, and the game is playable without either. The pricing seems high to me, though. I don't have the internal metrics obviously, but I feel like they probably left some money on the table by making the DLC so expensive to buy relative to other things that people can do with their entertainment funds.

I wouldn't mind more focus on DLC for future games, as long as they get the balance right like they did on this title.

Now something I will say is that our ambitious "final challenge map" was horrifically undertuned. Something like that should NEVER be balanced for the lowest common denominator, and instead should be balanced "on the bleeding edge" (as the WoW devs described it (while trying to defend their "Concentrated Coolness" stance... which I get the idea, but have to disagree with their approach))...

Apoth (and anything similar) should not be clearable without optimization and full use of every resource a player is given [YES, that'd mean you need DLC to beat the DLC.]. The likes of the challenge runs that occur within are FIRMLY within the realm of "**** that shouldn't happen". As opposed to what it is.

Give me a break. It would be absurd for them to release paid DLC that was functionally impossible for the vast majority of the people that they were selling it to. The only way that this would work is if they had a difficulty slider with a Carebear setting on it, so that people could actually complete it and still potentially have greater heights to aspire to. And they'd need to patch it repeatedly.

For people who really want a challenge, that's not Apotheosis (which, at the end of the day, is just a math problem with a lot of grinding), that's probably house-rules Lunatic+. I feel like optimization pornography is rewarding enough on its own (exhibit A: this forum), and doesn't need some dev-sanctioned end boss to be considered worth doing.

[shadowofchaos]

The DLC has to be catered for both veterans (let's face it, this forum and gamefaqs take it to a freakish level) and newcomers.

For said newcomers, they have to feel it is possible. That they can have satisfaction for something they PAID for.

The restrictions people put in their own runs, such as ones they do on Apotheosis, and EXPECTING those restrictions be "official" via the devs is ASKING for the DLC to fail in sales. And it's pretty much elitism. "YOU DON'T DESERVE TO BEAT THIS MAP, HAHA."

The challenge map pack is *HARD* for people new to the series.

You need to keep that in mind when complaining.

Not everyone derives fun in The One Ring™ optimization mentality.

Do it for yourself, not for the praise of your achievements "recognized" by the developers.

The Apotheosis map is to encourage you to beat it with your current "optimized" resources... not "start over from an earlier save before you married the parents off or die."

That would only result in frustration for most people, not satisfaction in buying said DLC.

So essentially, yes I am VERY happy with the way they handled the DLC.

The difficulty curve is handled pretty well.

Battle saves would obviously be disabled in Cas.

I quote (relatively accurate) from Extra Credits:

"A difficult game follows its own established rules. A game that suddenly doesn't follow its own rules is punishing, not difficult."

If they are in a game mode that they specifically chose since the very beginning of the game, why in the HELL would you force them to go Classic mode?

That's like suddenly disabling Dual Attacks and Dual Guards from wave 40 on, for the sake of "difficulty".

Edited August 4, 2014 by shadowofchaos

[Czar_Yoshi]

Because it defeats the purpose of an endurance-based map to be able to do a full save in the middle. And most people go Cas for the no Permadeath bit, which would still be there.

[shadowofchaos]

Because it defeats the purpose of an endurance-based map to be able to do a full save in the middle.

And it wasn't changed in Apotheosis, was it?

You still gotta follow the established "game-wide" rules.

Casual Mode defeats the established tradition of Fire Emblem.

However, you are not thrown a curve ball out of nowhere. You are suggesting to.

It's like switching to Hero Mode on a Zelda game on a whim just because the dungeon is supposed to be "hard".

[Airship Canon]

Yes, they handled DLC more or less perfectly in Awakening. There was free stuff, there was paid stuff, and the game is playable without either. The pricing seems high to me, though. I don't have the internal metrics obviously, but I feel like they probably left some money on the table by making the DLC so expensive to buy relative to other things that people can do with their entertainment funds.

I wouldn't mind more focus on DLC for future games, as long as they get the balance right like they did on this title.

Give me a break. It would be absurd for them to release paid DLC that was functionally impossible for the vast majority of the people that they were selling it to. The only way that this would work is if they had a difficulty slider with a Carebear setting on it, so that people could actually complete it and still potentially have greater heights to aspire to. And they'd need to patch it repeatedly.

For people who really want a challenge, that's not Apotheosis (which, at the end of the day, is just a math problem with a lot of grinding), that's probably house-rules Lunatic+. I feel like optimization pornography is rewarding enough on its own (exhibit A: this forum), and doesn't need some dev-sanctioned end boss to be considered worth doing.

Apoth [Especially SR] is the equivalent of something like Heroic raiding.

It's NOT something that should be clearable by the chaff.

Difficulty is not measured from the frodo-level, that's poor design that doesn't account for differences in skill.

It's only measured at Apex. If the high-end find it easy, well, it's easy. Enough said. If you're a newcomer, finding it difficult isn't because it's hard, it's because you're not good.

If it's a "diamond" (Hard but easy to bust once you understand it) it's ...not hard.

And constant patching? The numbers don't change.

You wouldn't be able to break Apoth with it about 20 points higher on every unit. That's enough to make it a competent challenge. As it stands it's a "final challenge" that is optimized for the lowest common denominator, which unless you're running challenge runs is NOT a challenge.