TOUHOU ~ Official Touhou Chat Thread~

[Scarlet]

Just checked, NOPE! Well, of course, weapon skills never require bombs so those get enhanced by the skill tree, I guess.

Oh, right, weapon skills. Maybe I should consider actually getting some just so that I have a use for all that MP even when I'm out of bombs.

Level 24

Yeah, just got it, thanks.

Uh... it's supposed to be a Field effect, so it would last for quite a while unless it's overwritten by another field effect. I'm not sure if Yuuka/Medicine can make field effects, but you're sure you weren't ruining it with Sakuya/Patchy's field effects, right?

No other field effects were used by anyone else, and I tried it multiple times. It only works the turn it's used in. :/

I didn't mean Ofuda of Curing. Reimu has a skill tree that lets her restore status effects with her healing skills.

Oh, right, that. Leveling up that skill tree seemed kind of pointless to me, though, considering Sanae is much better at healing if I really need someone who can heal (and Reimu has been kind of subpar lately anyway, considering everything and their mom suddenly has completely immunity to light damage).

What level of Alice and what shield was she using? If she was properly leveled up (which I doubt, since you took up a challenge of not using her), given an ETH-resistant shield, and accumulated skill points in her Parrar tree, it should've significantly helped cushion the blows.

Relying on Last Words doesn't seem like a good strategy but hey, at least you beat them! Congratulations!

She was Lv17 during that battle (not that far below the party average). I can't remember what shield exactly she was using, but it was one that can block everything. Her Parrar skill tree had 7 points in it.

For the record, it's working now, but it didn't work during that boss battle for some reason. :|

Relying on Last Words doesn't seem like a good strategy but hey, at least you beat them! Congratulations!

It wasn't exactly my "strategy", it's just what ended up happening. xD"

Also, apparently me failing against every single boss in this game is going to be a running gag?

With Kaguya and Eirin, I hit the next roadblock. Eirin keeps OHKOing my magic users no matter where I put them and Kaguya keeps undoing all damage I deal to either of them with that crazy "Heal" of hers. I'm aware that Sakuya has a field skill that prevents any healing whatsoever, but the problem with that is that it's a field effect. Eirin in particular does so much damage that not even Alice can last for more than a couple turns without some form of healing.

So I'm kind of puzzled - I can't really shut down their healing spam, I can't overpower them with sheer damage output, and I can't outstall them. Hell, I can't even debuff them because they seem to have like a million RES.

Edited June 5, 2014 by Scarlet

[Zak Something]

hey, anyone here play Touhou Mother?

I just beat Berzerk Sanae in Tenshi's tower after the fight with Remilia, and I have no idea where to go from there. Any help?

[Kriemhild]

Oh, right, weapon skills. Maybe I should consider actually getting some just so that I have a use for all that MP even when I'm out of bombs.

Mach Punch isn't bad, and I don't think you can get Final Finger yet. I don't think any of the other weapon skills are anything special.

No other field effects were used by anyone else, and I tried it multiple times. It only works the turn it's used in. :/

Hmm, okay. Well, now that Medicine is down, you probably won't need it anymore.

Oh, right, that. Leveling up that skill tree seemed kind of pointless to me, though, considering Sanae is much better at healing if I really need someone who can heal (and Reimu has been kind of subpar lately anyway, considering everything and their mom suddenly has completely immunity to light damage).

Yeah, Reimu gets really lame. Her barriers still have great utility against certain bosses though.

She was Lv17 during that battle (not that far below the party average). I can't remember what shield exactly she was using, but it was one that can block everything. Her Parrar skill tree had 7 points in it.

For the record, it's working now, but it didn't work during that boss battle for some reason. :|

Awww, and here I thought you would actually be able to pull off a No-Alice run...

Also, apparently me failing against every single boss in this game is going to be a running gag?

With Kaguya and Eirin, I hit the next roadblock. Eirin keeps OHKOing my magic users no matter where I put them and Kaguya keeps undoing all damage I deal to either of them with that crazy "Heal" of hers. I'm aware that Sakuya has a field skill that prevents any healing whatsoever, but the problem with that is that it's a field effect. Eirin in particular does so much damage that not even Alice can last for more than a couple turns without some form of healing.

So I'm kind of puzzled - I can't really shut down their healing spam, I can't overpower them with sheer damage output, and I can't outstall them. Hell, I can't even debuff them because they seem to have like a million RES.

I did say that the real boss battles start from Stage 10. Boss will start using incredibly cheap tricks to screw you over in BS ways. This is when you have to form a solid plan, consider and try out different approaches, and make decisions based on the situation.

If you want some general advice, do be reminded that Nitori is capable of ignoring Perfect Dodge. Furthermore, Nitori's guns have Slayer: Magicians/Warriors, which are the classes for Kaguya and Eirin respectively. In fact, when I said that Nitori really shines on some bosses, Eirin was the primary candidate in my mind. Marisa's lasers can also achieve Slayer through a skill tree.

You're already aware that Sakuya can use Colosso World to shut down healing, but do note that field effects can be removed by overwriting them with another field effect, which Sakuya and Patchy should have plenty of. Colosso World does not negate revival btw.

If Eirin+Kaguya's high RES bothers you, Youmu has a commander skill that cuts enemy RES by half for one turn. As for outstalling MP, I've never employed that against a single boss in the game and I'm very sure it's not feasible against Eirin+Kaguya.

I'm pretty sure Eirin+Kaguya was a big roadblock for every player. I would say this is the biggest difficulty spike in the entire game, expansion included. Even the boss theme is different for this battle!

Also, would it help if I showed you their bestiary entries?

Edited June 6, 2014 by Railgun

[Fera]

nvm, I got lucky and on my second attempt she kept missing Mokou for some reason

>Tewi fight

>got lucky

I feel like the forces of the universe-- No, actually Tewi has shit accuracy. It actually does fit, though, if SHE gets lucky, you're pretty much hosed. Wahahaha.

General tips for Eientei-2:

- I beat this without any game guide-specific cheese, unlike Proto

- You might need more grinding but I wasn't particularly overleveled

- Heal spell spam is not particularly all that much

- Timing of Colosso World

- Outstalling MP only works against a single boss in the entire game, and this isn't it

- Eirin a shit

Edited June 6, 2014 by Fera

[Kriemhild]

- I beat this without any game guide-specific cheese, unlike Proto

Well, hey, it wasn't my fault that somebody in IP Chat told me about the cheese after I whined about this fight so much!

- You might need more grinding but I wasn't particularly overleveled

I think I was at around Lv 27-28 this time. Fera usually had lower levels than me.

- Outstalling MP only works against a single boss in the entire game, and this isn't it

Okay, yeah, Fera just reminded me about this, I kinda forgot about that boss, sorry.

[Wen Yang]

getting wrecked by the muenzuka crew on Sengoku :(

that friggin instakill proc, no motivation to play lol

Really? Komachi of all people are giving you troubles?

What I did is simply not declare war to the Human Village and consistently send in my A-team on the Muenzuka crew. I usually manage to hammer down Komachi before she gets to move more than once or twice. Do NOT leave her alive at Low HP, else she'll spam Higan Ferrier. (Having Shanghai around to Dolls War Komachi ASAP usually helps too).

And man... if you think Komachi is hard... wait till you run into YUUKA. :D

Scarlet: I know the VN Sengoku Gensokyo is based on by heart, so I prepared just in case they pulled the same gimmick... and I was right. I didn't have too much trouble, but again, I WAS prepared for it.

Btw, anyone know how to contact Kalas? He's been neglecting his own draft of late.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Kopfjäger

[Fera]

PSO2 doesn't have a sidetail option

can't make Shinki, the sads :(

[Scarlet]

I did say that the real boss battles start from Stage 10. Boss will start using incredibly cheap tricks to screw you over in BS ways. This is when you have to form a solid plan, consider and try out different approaches, and make decisions based on the situation.

I'm fine with having to come up with a decent strategy, but it's kind of discouraging if virtually everything I come up with is thwarted by some detail that the creators put in to prevent that specific approach from working, to the point where it just boils down to trial and error. It's one thing if status ailments and debuffs don't work; I'm used to that. But once it reaches a point where it feels like the game wants me to use exactly a single strategy and/or skill that without, it's basically impossible to win, it becomes unfun to me.

I want to come up with clever solutions, not with solutions that the creator allows to be clever.

If you want some general advice, do be reminded that Nitori is capable of ignoring Perfect Dodge. Furthermore, Nitori's guns have Slayer: Magicians/Warriors, which are the classes for Kaguya and Eirin respectively. In fact, when I said that Nitori really shines on some bosses, Eirin was the primary candidate in my mind.

That'd require me to forge a gun for that purpose.

Marisa's lasers can also achieve Slayer through a skill tree.

Will I really need to completely shift around my skill points just so I can use the lasers in this one battle where they arbitrarily aren't worthless? God damn.

Colosso World does not negate revival btw.

That's good to know, but probably won't help me much.

Also, would it help if I showed you their bestiary entries?

Most definitely! In particular, it'd help to know their elemental resistances/weaknesses, although I suspect they don't have weaknesses. So far I've figured out that Eirin has a strong resistance to darkness while Kaguya has a strong resistance to light, and they start to regenerate absurd amounts of health if the land power goes too far in either direction.

>Tewi fight

>got lucky

I feel like the forces of the universe-- No, actually Tewi has shit accuracy. It actually does fit, though, if SHE gets lucky, you're pretty much hosed. Wahahaha.

I don't get why she kept missing Mokou of all people, though, especially when I had people like Sakuya with like ten times her EVA in the same party. xD

- You might need more grinding but I wasn't particularly overleveled

So, what level would be appropriate? My "main" party is about Lv28, whereas the backup group is about Lv24 (they got quadruple Exp for almost the entirety of Eientei lol). Grinding more at this point doesn't seem feasible, as most of the random encounters in the second half of Eientei are absurdly difficult while nonetheless only awarding marginal amounts of Exp and Power.

What I did is simply not declare war to the Human Village

Yeah, it helps to take things slow in this game (well, on Normal anyway...). Almost any faction will eventually declare war on their own, so there's no need to rush and take on more factions at once than you really need to.

And man... if you think Komachi is hard... wait till you run into YUUKA. :D

I swear Lunatic!Yuuka is impossible lol.

Scarlet: I know the VN Sengoku Gensokyo is based on by heart, so I prepared just in case they pulled the same gimmick... and I was right. I didn't have too much trouble, but again, I WAS prepared for it.

It's less the gimmick that gave me trouble and more some of the final enemies just being plain overpowered. Some of the abilities they have are just in no way fair. :|

[Komeiji Koishi]

Btw, anyone know how to contact Kalas? He's been neglecting his own draft of late.

Just pm me or whatever...

[Wen Yang]

It's less the gimmick that gave me trouble and more some of the final enemies just being plain overpowered. Some of the abilities they have are just in no way fair. :|

The Final enemies being plain OP IS the gimmick I meant XD.

In the VN I refer to you even have to deal with FIVE ridiculously strong armies BLITZING (as in, FIVE ATTACKS in ONE TURN) you right off the bat. XD

[Kriemhild]

I'm fine with having to come up with a decent strategy, but it's kind of discouraging if virtually everything I come up with is thwarted by some detail that the creators put in to prevent that specific approach from working, to the point where it just boils down to trial and error. It's one thing if status ailments and debuffs don't work; I'm used to that. But once it reaches a point where it feels like the game wants me to use exactly a single strategy and/or skill that without, it's basically impossible to win, it becomes unfun to me.

I want to come up with clever solutions, not with solutions that the creator allows to be clever.

There are multiple approaches that work and you already have a good idea of what the challenges are.

That'd require me to forge a gun for that purpose.

Considering that Eirin+Kaguya is one of the toughest boss battles in this game (if you don't cheese it, that is), I would definitely recommend doing exactly that.

Will I really need to completely shift around my skill points just so I can use the lasers in this one battle where they arbitrarily aren't worthless? God damn.

If you're complaining about shuffling skill points, this probably isn't the game for you. Honestly, in my opinion, I think this game would be incredibly boring if you could just maintain fixed set-ups with fixed parties and employ fixed approaches that scale up as you go on in order to demolish everything in your way. In fact, to me, personally, the absolute BEST thing about this game is how amazingly versatile you can become, with relatively many characters, and with each character being able to do multiple different stuff. The fact that the game actually forces you to become flexible with your setup is why I enjoyed playing this game enough to motivate me to clear it (21 Stages is A LOT, y'know).

But if you dislike being flexible with what characters you can use, or even with how you use the same character, then you should probably quit this game because you'll only get more frustrated as you keep going. No, it is not required to buy Nitori's gun or to shuffle Marisa's skills, but it should pretty clear by now that your standard approach for bosses all this time isn't going to work now. Make up your own new approaches and refine your strategy until you can beat them. While Kaguya+Eirin is certainly more restrictive than other bosses (both before and after), there's still plenty of room for you to open your mind and overcome this challenge. (Unless you want to cheese through it, of which there is only one known cheese).

That's good to know, but probably won't help me much.

Won't it? If you can keep Sanae alive, she can keep everyone else alive...

Most definitely! In particular, it'd help to know their elemental resistances/weaknesses, although I suspect they don't have weaknesses. So far I've figured out that Eirin has a strong resistance to darkness while Kaguya has a strong resistance to light, and they start to regenerate absurd amounts of health if the land power goes too far in either direction.

Sure thing!

[spoiler=Bestiary Entries]

I don't get why she kept missing Mokou of all people, though, especially when I had people like Sakuya with like ten times her EVA in the same party. xD

You mean she actually hit Sakuya? O_O

So, what level would be appropriate? My "main" party is about Lv28, whereas the backup group is about Lv24 (they got quadruple Exp for almost the entirety of Eientei lol). Grinding more at this point doesn't seem feasible, as most of the random encounters in the second half of Eientei are absurdly difficult while nonetheless only awarding marginal amounts of Exp and Power.

Ah, Virtue. There's also a demon enemy too, right? The Angel and the Demon will remain as the most annoying generics for most stages.

Lv 24 sounds good, I think. There's no point in grinding unless there's a particular skill you need, but I think what you have now is good enough.

[Fera]

This difficulty spike is pretty much only localized here, and Youkai Mountain's stuff. It gets much easier to figure out onwards imo.

Protip: Eirin's doing most if not all of the damage, so just focus on trying to kill her for the moment. You can figure out the rest of the battle afterwards. I don't quite remember the exact party I used but I think it had Sanae (buffs/heals/revive) Nitori (slayer DPS) Marisa (slayer DPS) and Sakuya (Colosso/Soul Sculpture tank/DPS). Fifth one I'm not sure about, you might do well with Alice, as Mokou can revive from her Commander slot.

[Kriemhild]

Speaking of GoS, you guys should join this: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=48118#entry3133670

[Scarlet]

The Final enemies being plain OP IS the gimmick I meant XD.

In the VN I refer to you even have to deal with FIVE ridiculously strong armies BLITZING (as in, FIVE ATTACKS in ONE TURN) you right off the bat. XD

Oh, okay. xD"

If you're complaining about shuffling skill points, this probably isn't the game for you. Honestly, in my opinion, I think this game would be incredibly boring if you could just maintain fixed set-ups with fixed parties and employ fixed approaches that scale up as you go on in order to demolish everything in your way. In fact, to me, personally, the absolute BEST thing about this game is how amazingly versatile you can become, with relatively many characters, and with each character being able to do multiple different stuff. The fact that the game actually forces you to become flexible with your setup is why I enjoyed playing this game enough to motivate me to clear it (21 Stages is A LOT, y'know).

But if you dislike being flexible with what characters you can use, or even with how you use the same character, then you should probably quit this game because you'll only get more frustrated as you keep going. No, it is not required to buy Nitori's gun or to shuffle Marisa's skills, but it should pretty clear by now that your standard approach for bosses all this time isn't going to work now. Make up your own new approaches and refine your strategy until you can beat them. While Kaguya+Eirin is certainly more restrictive than other bosses (both before and after), there's still plenty of room for you to open your mind and overcome this challenge. (Unless you want to cheese through it, of which there is only one known cheese).

Uh, that's not what I was saying. I like having flexibility, which is part of the reason why I like having the ability to re-assign skill points whenever I want to. What I dislike is being forced to make use of it.

Besides, it's not like I'm not already trying out different approaches, but I'm a firm believer in the philosophy that any non-optional encounter in an RPG should in theory be beatable on your first attempt, even without a completely optimized team. Hell, even requiring a somewhat optimized team is fine if the game actually drops hints about what you need to prepare for. However, this game does neither.

Taking Okuu for example, I had no reason to believe that Mega Flare would instantly wipe out my party without fail, nor that she'd only use it when she was low on health. Not terribly difficult to get past once you know it's coming, but enjoy getting wiped out on your first attempt through no fault of your own. That's what's frustrating to me.

Won't it? If you can keep Sanae alive, she can keep everyone else alive...

Not for long. Even if I wasn't limited by the high MP cost and Sanae's relatively low MP, she only has so many bombs to work with.

Sure thing!

[spoiler=Bestiary Entries]

Thanks~

You mean she actually hit Sakuya? O_O

Yup. Right away, even.

Ah, Virtue. There's also a demon enemy too, right? The Angel and the Demon will remain as the most annoying generics for most stages.

Yeah, although the demon enemy gives me nowhere near as much trouble in comparison.

But I'll keep seeing them in future stages? Oh dear...

This difficulty spike is pretty much only localized here, and Youkai Mountain's stuff. It gets much easier to figure out onwards imo.

I hope so. :|

Protip: Eirin's doing most if not all of the damage, so just focus on trying to kill her for the moment. You can figure out the rest of the battle afterwards. I don't quite remember the exact party I used but I think it had Sanae (buffs/heals/revive) Nitori (slayer DPS) Marisa (slayer DPS) and Sakuya (Colosso/Soul Sculpture tank/DPS). Fifth one I'm not sure about, you might do well with Alice, as Mokou can revive from her Commander slot.

...I guess that's what I'll have to do. Thanks for the help!

[Scarlet]

I feel cheated.

I just now did it the way Fera suggested to me and won.

...primarily because neither Kaguya nor Eirin ever used any of their stronger attacks; they were too busy ganging up on Alice with their weak-ish single-target attacks... xD

I still don't get why Marionette Parrar is so great, but Hourai Doll is proving to be stupidly effective. :V

[Kriemhild]

Yay, congratulations! If you can beat Eirin+Kaguya without cheesing, you should be able to take on almost everything else the game throws at you. I'm quite surprised that you were able to beat them without reaching a state where you feel despaired by Swallow's Cowrie Shell or Hourai Elixir. The rest of the game should be a cakewalk, I think.

And yes, Hourai Doll is really good. While Marionette Parrar is the most broken skill in the game, most of Alice's other skills are still very useful.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Railgun

[Scarlet]

Uh, so, like, yeah, I hit the next roadblock.

Any advice on how to deal with Kanako and Suwako? Kanako's Face Smash attack OHKOs literally everyone except Alice/Mokou, even if I have Alice use Marionette Parrar or its upgraded version on my party the turn Kanako uses it.

I'm not quite sure how Reimu's barrier thingie works; would it be worth deploying her just so she can block that attack everytime Kanako uses it? (Would that even work?)

Edited June 7, 2014 by Scarlet

[Komeiji Koishi]

I cleared PCB easy.

Yay

[Kriemhild]

Uh, so, like, yeah, I hit the next roadblock.

Any advice on how to deal with Kanako and Suwako? Kanako's Face Smash attack OHKOs literally everyone except Alice/Mokou, even if I have Alice use Marionette Parrar or its upgraded version on my party the turn Kanako uses it.

I'm not quite sure how Reimu's barrier thingie works; would it be worth deploying her just so she can block that attack everytime Kanako uses it? (Would that even work?)

For Reimu's barrier to be effective, you kinda need to predict the attack beforehand. If you can find a pattern, go ahead.

But well, for this battle, me and Fera both cheesed it, though it's the kind of cheese that is easy to stumble upon purely by accident (unlike Kaguya being vulnerable to mind manipulation). We won't be able to help too much with strategizing here.

Edited June 7, 2014 by Railgun

[Komeiji Koishi]

Wowow, slow down guys...

Anyway, um. Like, I still need to work on my IN and PCB. And MoF, yeah...

[Scarlet]

I cleared PCB easy.

Yay

Congrats!

For Reimu's barrier to be effective, you kinda need to predict the attack beforehand. If you can find a pattern, go ahead.

I did indeed find one, that's why I was asking. xD

She always seems to use it the turn after she gains the Charge buff.

But well, for this battle, me and Fera both cheesed it, though it's the kind of cheese that is easy to stumble upon purely by accident (unlike Kaguya being vulnerable to mind manipulation). We won't be able to help too much with strategizing here.

D:

(unlike Kaguya being vulnerable to mind manipulation)

lol wat

Well, considering I still hadn't recruited Byakuren at that point, the only way I could possibly have inflicted Control upon her would've been Satori's Last Word, so... xD"

@Kalas: Take your time! There's always room for improvement, but trying too hard will do you no good.

[Scarlet]

...turns out that Reimu's barriers are single-target spells.

Fuck this game

Proto, can you do me a favor and show me their Bestiary entries? They must have SOME kind of weakness, right? They both have so much defense that even my best damage dealers actually run out of MP before I get even ONE of them down. That, and I run out of revivals at around the same time.

[Komeiji Koishi]

I don't wanna, like, waste anyone' time, but can someone please analyze my replay?

And yes I know about the stupid deaths against the Prismrivers.

Edited June 7, 2014 by Spiriter Kalas

[Pull My Devil Trigger]

Is the amount of time points you get after clearing a boss (non?) spell fixed, if so how much if not what exactly determines how much it is?

[Komeiji Koishi]

Is the amount of time points you get after clearing a boss (non?) spell fixed, if so how much if not what exactly determines how much it is?

I think it's determined by the amount of Familiars the boss has left, something like that.