Paper Jam Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 but it's hard to invest in a conflict when the antagonist doesn't seem to care if he wins or not. Well, Xanatos from "Gargoyles" doesn't seem to care if he wins or not, and it's not that hard to be interested in "Gargoyles." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 (edited) Villains like Ashnard have been done a thousand times over. I find him pretty lackluster, but then again most of the villains in the Tellius games are pretty cliched. Fair enough if you find him lackluster, but is cliched inherently a bad thing? The components aren't as important as how they fit into a story. If every component is cliched, it can still tell a great story despite everything. Being innovative vs cloche doesn't inherently make a story better or worse. Edited November 18, 2014 by Lord Raven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 Well, Xanatos from "Gargoyles" doesn't seem to care if he wins or not, and it's not that hard to be interested in "Gargoyles." Xanatos doesn't care if he wins or loses because he knows he'll always win in some way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paper Jam Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 Xanatos doesn't care if he wins or loses because he knows he'll always win in some way. How is that different than Ashnard? Ashnard wanted the strongest to win, and that's exactly what he got. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 How is that different than Ashnard? Ashnard wanted the strongest to win, and that's exactly what he got. I'm sure he'd rather he was the strongest when it comes down to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 It wasn't a battle of manipulation, it was a Blood Pact. He basically just let the curse kill off so much of his population that it inevitably hit the people in line to the throne. Which practically goes half against what Ashnard is established as anyway so I really don't like that particular contrivance. Doh! Should've known I was filling in the blanks in my memory with pretty much whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Vasuda Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 (edited) Fair enough if you find him lackluster, but is cliched inherently a bad thing? The components aren't as important as how they fit into a story. If every component is cliched, it can still tell a great story despite everything. Being innovative vs cloche doesn't inherently make a story better or worse. Finally someone understands. Just speaking generally, it bothers me hearing people complain about "cliches" and disregarding the subject without any further criticism. They are cliche for a reason; it is consistently appealing to people. For the most part, everything has been done before some way or another in the vast abyss of the media, so if you expect something completely new and innovated, you're only going to end up disappointing yourself. -End rant. He's not my personal favorite, Alvis for president but if Ashnard is a crazy power hungry ruler, ok cool. It's the underlying method to the madness that drives him is what makes him interesting. Too bad so much of it isn't explained until radiant dawn. Edited December 16, 2014 by Professor Vasuda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chloe Neo Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 People probably like him as he was an actual menacing looking vilan and he was featured in the first 3d fire emblem game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Banzai Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 Nobody likes Ashnard he's the weakest part of an otherwise strong story Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jugdral Defender Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Ashnard has more going for him then you give him credit for. Particularly his philosophy. He's a Social Darwinist if every I saw one. He believes power is the only gauge of worth and seeks to prove it through conquest. He abhors the nobility and the concept of birth right. Despite what people say above I don't think he hates the Laguz either. He's from a country where people are raised to hate laguz but I imagine he respects them for their great physical strength. I can't recall any quote supporting or rejecting that idea though except him losing interest in his son when he learned he didn't have any powers of the dragon tribe. A villain who is evil for no reason still tends to have some reason, they're just quite simple. Either greed, or they just find amusement in being evil. Ashnard has no shades of the former, he was quite contempt to lose Daein despite it being his homeland, but does have some shades of the latter however it is more an appreciation of battle then just having fun being evil. He allows Ike to come right up to his front door because he wants a challenge. He really doesn't care whether he wins or loses because if someone beats him in a fair fight then they kind of prove him right. He simply wasn't strong enough to take over the world. I imagine he respects Ike a lot, being someone born of lowly station but gained his authority through battle. They were probably designed as foils of each other. Plus he has spikes on his armor and rides a kickass dragon he enslaved. I think that's a major deciding factor. I'm one percent in agreement with all of this. Even Sothe mentioned how Ashnard gave him and the other people of Daein hope that would never have had without him. In RD, Sephiran and Ike were discussing how Zelgius was able to work for him so easily - that Ashnard doesn't care about a person's background or history. He's kind of a careless person, but it doesn't care in favor of power. I don't think Ashnard is a generic villain at all. He's even the kind of guy in-universe that makes the characters so angry that they can't do a thing about it in an odd way. Ashnard gets what he wants no matter what. He was amused beyond reason at everyone's hatred for him, and he loved it. He not only got the war he wanted, but he watched everyone get worked up about what he'd done, and when he died, it really didn't seem like he was concerned with his own death. Most villains who seem generic to me are the powerful, want to rule everything type who want to live no matter what and secure things under their name. Ashnard was very interesting as a villain, imo, and I wish we knew more about him. The reason Ashnard didn't want his child in the end was because he wasn't powerful; not because he was part laguz. He wanted a Branded child to top that off, because he wanted the child to be exceedingly powerful. He was a twisted maniac when it came to torture from what I can gather, but that doesn't seem limited to laguz. In regards to Ike, he most definitely was pleased with his skill and strength. He wanted Ike to reach him, and he even flew straight over to him to meet him personally; to meet the person who had toppled his army left and right and made it all the way to Ashnard himself. Truthfully, if they weren't enemies ready to lop each other's heads off, I feel like Ashnard probably would've invited Ike to join his army. There was a time when he asked how Ike was doing strength wise, and was disappointed (he even said he was disappointed) that Ike wasn't worthy at the time. He's also got that giddy laugh and acts totally obnoxious about it in the last chapter, and while other characters do that and they get really annoying (did someone say Valtome because), Ashnard just has a presence about him that makes him seem... more intimidating, I guess? As strong as he claims he is? I know people tend to say he's the worst final boss in FE history, but I guess if you're playing on Normal/Easy, that's the case. Fighting him when he uses the Medallion isn't as easy, and he does move around and will most definitely attack you. You can't use most of your units against him, so they end up having to avoid his attack range the entire chapter. Gameplay wise, yeah, he could've used some work, but storyline wise I found him to be a great villain, and one of my preferred favorites as such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandragon Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 I'm one percent in agreement with all of this. Even Sothe mentioned how Ashnard gave him and the other people of Daein hope that would never have had without him. In RD, Sephiran and Ike were discussing how Zelgius was able to work for him so easily - that Ashnard doesn't care about a person's background or history. He's kind of a careless person, but it doesn't care in favor of power. I don't think Ashnard is a generic villain at all. He's even the kind of guy in-universe that makes the characters so angry that they can't do a thing about it in an odd way. Ashnard gets what he wants no matter what. He was amused beyond reason at everyone's hatred for him, and he loved it. He not only got the war he wanted, but he watched everyone get worked up about what he'd done, and when he died, it really didn't seem like he was concerned with his own death. Most villains who seem generic to me are the powerful, want to rule everything type who want to live no matter what and secure things under their name. Ashnard was very interesting as a villain, imo, and I wish we knew more about him. The reason Ashnard didn't want his child in the end was because he wasn't powerful; not because he was part laguz. He wanted a Branded child to top that off, because he wanted the child to be exceedingly powerful. He was a twisted maniac when it came to torture from what I can gather, but that doesn't seem limited to laguz. In regards to Ike, he most definitely was pleased with his skill and strength. He wanted Ike to reach him, and he even flew straight over to him to meet him personally; to meet the person who had toppled his army left and right and made it all the way to Ashnard himself. Truthfully, if they weren't enemies ready to lop each other's heads off, I feel like Ashnard probably would've invited Ike to join his army. There was a time when he asked how Ike was doing strength wise, and was disappointed (he even said he was disappointed) that Ike wasn't worthy at the time. He's also got that giddy laugh and acts totally obnoxious about it in the last chapter, and while other characters do that and they get really annoying (did someone say Valtome because), Ashnard just has a presence about him that makes him seem... more intimidating, I guess? As strong as he claims he is? I know people tend to say he's the worst final boss in FE history, but I guess if you're playing on Normal/Easy, that's the case. Fighting him when he uses the Medallion isn't as easy, and he does move around and will most definitely attack you. You can't use most of your units against him, so they end up having to avoid his attack range the entire chapter. Gameplay wise, yeah, he could've used some work, but storyline wise I found him to be a great villain, and one of my preferred favorites as such. I can't really say anything other than I agree with this. What sells me is that Ashnard isn't some all powerful ancient dragon, nor anyone serving such a god. He's just a normal person who has incredible potential in battle and uses that as his vision for the world. And it's really what makes him such a brilliant villain. He's obviously too powerful to be captured and imprisoned, the only way to stop him is to kill him. In that way, it makes him not only a powerful warrior, but a masterful manipulator on a scale grander than anything within the Fire Emblem series. And technically, he got his wish. He had created a world where the strong would survive, even if it was for a moment. In the final chapter of the game, he takes the strongest of units within the game, especially on hard mode, and you take yours. And in that confined map, as well as whatever chaos that is happening outside of the castle walls, is where Ashnards world of kill-or-be-killed exists. And he relishes and savors every second of it. Sorry if I used "and" a lot. I would get a horrible grade from my English teacher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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