Should branched promotions return?

[Fallaner]

It's called game balance.

If a feature, like reclass, is hilariously broken, it throws said balance out of whack. It doesn't matter if I choose to not use it. It's there, and the game balance when features are fully used is all but gone.

That said, the problem in FE13 was less reclass and more resetting your level. FE11/12 were better, but it was unlimited and free there. Hence if we don't get branched promotions, it would be okay if we combined FE11/12 and FE13's systems, you still need a rare, but not infinite (though after Ch13 it was unlimited) item to reclass, but it won't reset your level. Oh, and give each character a lilited amount of options.

If branching paths return, ditch it entirly.

A reason many may of used second seals were to fix bad RNG values, especially if someone had an extremely low stat growth in a defensive stat, since with a dismally low defensive stat you were unlikely to live for very long, especially on higher difficulties and classic. This in turn balances things out more, rather than less, since your on a much more even playing field with the enemy as you have a chance to fix your terrible stat so your enemy can't say, continue dealing extremely heavy damage or continue getting criticals.

However, it does end up overpowering your units after it possibly fixed their stats.

Edited January 24, 2015 by Fallaner

[Jedi]

Fair enough.

I just want it to be an improvement over FE13... bring back Wind edge/Storm Sword/Tempest Blade goddammit.

I've always wanted more balance too, I hope I didn't come off harshly, but I have the same hope.

The Tempest Blade set was really fun, although do they need em with the Levin sword?

[Azz]

A reason many may of used second seals were to fix bad RNG values, especially if someone had an extremely low stat growth in a defensive stat, since with a dismally low defensive stat you were unlikely to live for very long, especially on higher difficulties and classic. This in turn balances things out more, rather than less, since your on a much more even playing field with the enemy as you have a chance to fix your terrible stat so your enemy can't say, continue dealing extremely heavy damage or continue getting criticals.

However, it does end up overpowering your units after it possibly fixed their stats.

But people never compalined about this until Awakening.Really we don't need reclassing if we could handle it before reclassing and where we never had an option bewteen Casual or Classic.

[Fallaner]

But people never compalined about this until Awakening.Really we don't need reclassing if we could handle it before reclassing and where we never had an option bewteen Casual or Classic.

As I've only played Awakening, I am unable to comment on other games. But during my first time playing Awakening (first 10 or so missions), I found that the game could be quite unfair with the RNG, which could end up leaving much weaker people in positions where they are unable to truly survive after a bad decision or two. In my Lunatic (and later Lunatic+) playthrough I quite frankly learned that it felt impossible when the RNG screwed you over with bad stat upgrades. Thus second seals are seen as quite necessary by some newcomers into the FE games.

About not complaining, maybe they were just used to it? Again using WoW as an example, people didn't really complain about how hard Vanilla Molten Core was. The first thing people do when Molten Core was upgraded to level 100 for WoW's 10th anniversary? Complain about how hard it was, because they got used to things being much easier. Yet back in vanilla they were used to things being that hard, it was just standard affair for them to plan each encounter carefully, and ensure everyone had fire-resist gear, and all that other stuff that no longer occurs in WoW for a variety of reasons, such as resist stats being removed, or people just getting used to the fact WoW has gotten somewhat easier for most people, especially seeing as the most common raiding medium (LFR, Looking for Raid), is very easy and it was what was used to host Molten Core (as nobody wanted to get 40 people together to do Molten Core, as most current raids are 15 to 25 people). Thus leading everyone to think "Oh hey, it'll be as easy and bug-free as a current raid!", instead of it being "Molten Core upgraded to level 100", as Blizzard intended.

To apply this to Fire Emblem, everyone got used to the hard difficulty of Fire Emblem, and people then complain about it being hard when they give a method to make things much easier for you, namely, second seals and reclassing/level resets. Then people used to those would end up saying that the game is too hard without them, as their entirely used to such things.

[Philranger]

But people never compalined about this until Awakening.Really we don't need reclassing if we could handle it before reclassing and where we never had an option bewteen Casual or Classic.

People also weren't buying any of the games either...

[Fallaner]

People also weren't buying any of the games either...

Theres that too, there weren't too many new people coming into the series I don't think, thus why the series would of ended if Awakening didn't sell well (and thus why they just did everything they could to make it the best game they could). Then Awakening sold amazingly well, lots of new people joined into the series, and now we can talk about FE14.

Edited January 24, 2015 by Fallaner

[Jedi]

People also weren't buying any of the games either...

Whoa that's a bit harsh, FE's sold pretty decently for being the niche series it was.

[Ambulz]

I for one liked reclassing and found the many hours spent grinding for skills to be rather satisfying in the end.

Then again, I might be a masochist.

[Fallaner]

I for one liked reclassing and found the many hours spent grinding for skills to be rather satisfying in the end.

Then again, I might be a masochist.

I quite agree with this, I reclassed for a lonnnggg time to work on getting the abilities I wanted for my primary forces and my primary Einherjar, was quite satisfying to have a carefully selected army with just the right abilities you wanted to fit their specific roles.

[Julius Nepos]

I'd like to see branched promotions return because I like the variety and the decision making it brings.

But I must echo what others have already pointed out: branched promotions and reclassing do not easily co-exist in a way that the game is still balanced.

Part of the strategical decision on choosing whether or not to use a character is the character's class.

With both branched promotion and reclassing available the importance of a character's class is greatly reduced; after all, a lot of characters can become a certain desired class, you don't need specific characters to fill that role anymore.

Take this example from FE1: the horseman Wolf is mediocre to bad in statistics, but he's your only chance at getting a mounted bow user (who doesn't suck as much as Sedgar).

If both branched promotion and reclassing had existed in FE1, the strategical decision would be much less hard: simply take a better character and make them a horseman. Don't spend your energy on mediocre Wolf.

A reason many may of used second seals were to fix bad RNG values, especially if someone had an extremely low stat growth in a defensive stat, since with a dismally low defensive stat you were unlikely to live for very long, especially on higher difficulties and classic. This in turn balances things out more, rather than less, since your on a much more even playing field with the enemy as you have a chance to fix your terrible stat so your enemy can't say, continue dealing extremely heavy damage or continue getting criticals.

However, it does end up overpowering your units after it possibly fixed their stats.

I still think it works to the detriment of game balance.

Each character has certain strengths and weaknesses.

With proper game balance the player would have the need to put together a team where each character's weakness is another character's strength.

If you can simply boost any character's lacking stat with an easy reclass, the incentive to put together such a diverse and balanced team lessens, and the strategical element of the game is reduced.

[Fallaner]

I'd like to see branched promotions return because I like the variety and the decision making it brings.

But I must echo what others have already pointed out: branched promotions and reclassing do not easily co-exist in a way that the game is still balanced.

Part of the strategical decision on choosing whether or not to use a character is the character's class.

With both branched promotion and reclassing available the importance of a character's class is greatly reduced; after all, a lot of characters can become a certain desired class, you don't need specific characters to fill that role anymore.

Take this example from FE1: the horseman Wolf is mediocre to bad in statistics, but he's your only chance at getting a mounted bow user (who doesn't suck as much as Sedgar).

If both branched promotion and reclassing had existed in FE1, the strategical decision would be much less hard: simply take a better character and make them a horseman. Don't spend your energy on mediocre Wolf.

I still think it works to the detriment of game balance.

Each character has certain strengths and weaknesses.

With proper game balance the player would have the need to put together a team where each character's weakness is another character's strength.

If you can simply boost any character's lacking stat with an easy reclass, the incentive to put together such a diverse and balanced team lessens, and the strategical element of the game is reduced.

However, with how the A.I. works, they will not go after someone whos strong against them, they'll go after the weaker target every time or someone who can't fight back. This means that you'd have to really keep all defensive stat-lacking people FAR away from the fighting, else they'll end up promptly dying, and when their far away from the fighting, they can't do much unless they have Mire or Physic or something of that nature.

[Honey Bunny]

I guess I'm weird because Awakening was my first Fire Emblem and I still don't like reclassing. Each character has a class suited to their personality and to reclass them is just...wrong.

Anyway I do like branching classes so I think they should definitely be there. Sacred Stones has so far been my favorite class system, so I think that plus Awakening's ability to let you see how an upgrade changes a unit's stats would be ideal.

Edited January 24, 2015 by Honey Bunny

[Jedi]

I guess I'm weird because Awakening was my first Fire Emblem and I still don't like reclassing. Each character has a personality suited to their personality and to reclass them is just...wrong.

Cherche's Wyvern changing or suddenly being gone is only one thing I can mention among various other things. Yeah

[Book Bro]

I like branching promotions, but hopefully they rework the trees from how they were in Awakening. Certain things didn't really make sense as some people already pointed out.

However, with how the A.I. works, they will not go after someone whos strong against them, they'll go after the weaker target every time or someone who can't fight back. This means that you'd have to really keep all defensive stat-lacking people FAR away from the fighting, else they'll end up promptly dying, and when their far away from the fighting, they can't do much unless they have Mire or Physic or something of that nature.

But this is just part of the strategy. The thing is Awakening's difficulty lies in having to maximize your stats and getting the best skills. It's why there's such a jump between Normal/Hard and Lunatic/+, the former two modes take much less effort to break. Older games didn't depend on this nearly as much. Their difficulty lied elsewhere like having to reach multiple objectives, or having your army split up, having to rush across a map, etc. Being RNG screwed in one or two stats was never a huge issue, if anything it was just an inconvenience, but it's rare for a good unit to end up completely useless, even if their stats end up less than average.

I wonder if there'd be a way for them to keep the grinding/unlimited reclassing until postgame, that way they could please everyone. Maybe you only get a certain amount of seals during the story, and can't buy them until postgame? Then some bonus "Lunatic" dungeons could be unlocked with multiple floors like the dungeons in FE8.

[Philranger]

I honestly don't buy the "it breaks the game" argument. The legendary weapons in FE4 break the game. The Arena in FE6-8 breaks the game, bonus Exp in FE9-10 break the game, and yet people don't complain near as much about them as they do reclassing.

[Jedi]

I honestly don't buy the "it breaks the game" argument. The legendary weapons in FE4 break the game. The Arena in FE6-8 breaks the game, bonus Exp in FE9-10 break the game, and yet people don't complain near as much about them as they do reclassing.

The legendary weapons are only part of what breaks FE4, there is a lot more to it then that.

The Arenas are in a lot more FE's than 6-8 and 8 only has ONE arena, it has grinding areas however, but still. What you mention aren't the things that break those particular games, Bexp is only a part of Tellius stuff as well.

[Carter]

It'd be great if each first tier class had it's own exclusive branch. No two classes share the same promotion choices.

That would open so many doors for new classes and new ideas. But there's only so many weapon combinations until you run out again. Unless that it, they make new weapons! Bring light magic back and make dark magic it's own category. And bring more melee weapons than just the sword, lance, and axe.

But back to the promotion branch discussion, I'd love if some first tier classes didn't share the same promotion. As the OP states, the archer and fighter can make up the mercenary's promotions. It would be awesome if they archer had it's own two promotion choices, the fighter had it's own two promotion choices, and the mercenary had it's own two promotion choices.

And then Gryphon Riders would not have to be a part of the Wyvern branch anymore. A Wyvern Rider could promote to a Wyvern Lord or Wyvern Knight. And the Gryphon Rider could be a completely separate branch of its own, bringing in a different weapon combination. Possibly bows? The last group of the flying category, the pegasi, already handle the situation beautifully, as the Pegasus Knight has it's own complete branch.

[Magical Glace]

I've always wanted more balance too, I hope I didn't come off harshly, but I have the same hope.

The Tempest Blade set was really fun, although do they need em with the Levin sword?

Since they ran off Str over Mgc, yes.

I honestly don't buy the "it breaks the game" argument. The legendary weapons in FE4 break the game. The Arena in FE6-8 breaks the game, bonus Exp in FE9-10 break the game, and yet people don't complain near as much about them as they do reclassing.

FE6-8: Turn count is a thing. And Valni complaints do exist.

FE9/10: Lol do you seriously think people don't complain about that.

The legendary weapons are only part of what breaks FE4, there is a lot more to it then that.

The Arenas are in a lot more FE's than 6-8 and 8 only has ONE arena, it has grinding areas however, but still. What you mention aren't the things that break those particular games, Bexp is only a part of Tellius stuff as well.

8 had two (technically 3, one per route) arenas. One in Chapter 5, the next in Innes' or Duessel's(?) chapters.

[darkkfan]

I personally hate second seals because of the whole resetting level but not the hidden level thing. I think one of the few things the DS games did better than the rest of the series is the fact that you could reclass pretty much at will in order to get the desired growth rates. I don't think it's overpowered, especially given the difficulty of FE11/12 on the highest setting. I suppose the same thing could be said of FE13, but again the grinding is the problem not the reclassing. And the whole second seal thing just seems unnecessarily overcomplicated.

[euklyd]

I fucking love both split promotions and reclassing because both give me options, if I choose to take advantage of them.

imo restrict the supply of second seals until postgame
just like should be done with rescue staves / etc

while second seals can be used break the game it has nothing to do with split promotions. there is no argument to tie the two together outside of "b-b-but muh uniqueness T_T" which isn't a gameplay argument at all.

ofc if I'm wrong feel free to correct me but this topic has basically turned into whining about second seals being broken without relating it to like
branched promotions

pedit: okay there is at least one way and that's that the combination of second seals and branched promotions gives you too many options. but I'm pretty sure that's not how second seals break the game.

[BlueLore]

tbh I think if second seals return together with branched promotions,what if there'd be some sort of restrictions?

I mean kellam for example has a whopping total of 6 tier-2-classes to choose from.

What if they instead made it so that you can always only choose 1 class out of the 2 options,so that once kellam becomes a general,he can't become a great knight anymore even with reclassing and once he becomes an assassin,he can't become a trickster anymore?

Another possibility would be to simply choose the reclassing options in a way that doesn't offer 6 endgame classes,but only 5,you know like vaike who had only 5 options to choose from,since his barbarian and fighter class both had fighter as an option,although I'd say that 5 is probably still too much for most people^^

Another another possibility would be that you only get to choose a promotion for your starting class,but don't get to choose one for the other 2 classes,for example vaike is a fighter,who can turn into a warrior or a hero,he can also become a thief or a barbarian,however as a thief he is only able to become an assassin and as a barbarian he can only turn into a berserker,which would limit you to 4 endgame classes and would mean that your starting class is a bit more meaningful than the other 2 classes.

[Fallaner]

tbh I think if second seals return together with branched promotions,what if there'd be some sort of restrictions?

I mean kellam for example has a whopping total of 6 tier-2-classes to choose from.

What if they instead made it so that you can always only choose 1 class out of the 2 options,so that once kellam becomes a general,he can't become a great knight anymore even with reclassing and once he becomes an assassin,he can't become a trickster anymore?

Another possibility would be to simply choose the reclassing options in a way that doesn't offer 6 endgame classes,but only 5,you know like vaike who had only 5 options to choose from,since his barbarian and fighter class both had fighter as an option,although I'd say that 5 is probably still too much for most people^^

Another another possibility would be that you only get to choose a promotion for your starting class,but don't get to choose one for the other 2 classes,for example vaike is a fighter,who can turn into a warrior or a hero,he can also become a thief or a barbarian,however as a thief he is only able to become an assassin and as a barbarian he can only turn into a berserker,which would limit you to 4 endgame classes and would mean that your starting class is a bit more meaningful than the other 2 classes.

Limiting your reclassing options like that kind of ruins the point of being able to reclass to any of their classes, as well as pointlessly locking you out of things you may later find you need or want him to be. There honestly shouldn't be any restrictions other than their original class set, and should be able to promote into or reclass into, any of the promoted versions of their 3 starting classes.

[MajorMajora]

Only if declassing is gone, but I really don't feel declassing and branching are the same thing, so I'm fine with that.

It'd still be nice to second seal to switch between the tree they are locked into, though. Like turning from a general to a great knight.

[Crixler]

I love the idea of a branching class tree, but the ones in FE8 and FE13 have some weird bits to them, in my opinion. Cavalier and knight are together, the main two lance classes (exluding soldier, since it's not playable in those games), the two main axe classes are together. So shouldn't mercenary and myrmidon be together? Nooooope, they tie into archer and thief, instead, respectively. And on the subject of archers and thieves, thieves get bows upon promoting to assassin, so making them cross over with archer for that makes more sense than myrmidon. So switch archer and myrmidon around, and that's already a big improvement. However, there's no place for bow knights, now. What should the new sword class tree be? We've got hero, which crosses over with the axe wielders (more on that in a bit), and swordmaster, a sword-only class. I think it makes sense for swordmaster to be the shared class between merc and myrm. They've mastered their swordsmanship. Straightforward. So what's the myrmidon's other choice, now that they no longer get assassin? I like the idea of dread fighter taking that role, as they're a bit myrmidon-y. So now, back to that bit about how hero crosses over with the axe tree. Shouldn't the lance wielders cross over, too? Cavalier seems to be a good spot to introduce a crossover with sword wielders. But how? Both ends of the sword tree have axes as their second weapon. And neither of them are on horses. And hey, speaking of horses, bow knights/rangers are gone now, and maybe I liked those. And where the crap are my playable soldiers?! Okay, let's just get rid of all mounted classes. No more cavaliers, wyvern riders, pegasus knights, none of that. Make horses, wyverns, pegasi, gryffons, etc all a skill, or an item, or something. But not a class. Put soldier where cavalier used to be. Halbirdier is the shared class between knight and soldier. Take away the hero's axe, make hero's get swords instead - give him a horse skill/item/whatever, and there's your paladin. Since hero no longer connects to the axe tree, dread fighter will do that instead. Going from the name "Dread fighter", fighter seems like a good point of overlap, perhaps, but shouldn't the axe tree also connect to the lance tree, too? Do generals make more sense as a fighter promotion, or a barbarian/pirate/brigand/whatever promotion? Thematically speaking, neither option is super obvious, but both could have their merits. Looking at class stats, if I remember correctly, fighter -> general was a bit more natural, leaving barbarian/brigand/whatever to cross over with dread fighter.

This might be viewed as too big of a change, for many, though.
I actually made a thread about this proposal almost two years ago, if anyone is curious about some other related ideas (I'm not entirely happy with the way I handled the magic classes in it, though. I miiiiiight completely redo that part someday. Same with the thief/archer/bard tree).

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=38995

Edited January 25, 2015 by Crixler

[goodperson707]

Since they ran off Str over Mgc, yes.FE6-8: Turn count is a thing. And Valni complaints do exist.FE9/10: Lol do you seriously think people don't complain about that.

um just saying how does turn count affect your team negatively, getting high ranking is just bragging rights (except in Lyn's story i think better gem right) it's a choice if you want to abuse the arena you can but you don't have to aim for high ranking it's a way of playing.

In awakening yes its easy to break the game but there are self imposed challenges to try

I know awakening is easy to break but the other games did have ways of making it easier or in some maps trivial coughwarpskipingcough.

Edited January 28, 2015 by goodperson707