Should Casual Return?

[Makaze]

I doubt that, actually. I think it was probably the other new aspects of the game, like the waifu simulator excuse.

Personally, I meet a lot of new players who claim they love Awakening and refuse to play Classic mode without a lot of prodding. No mentions of waifus or shipping. The waifu simulator drama seems to come more from the older fans.

[The Protagonist]

Their refusal to play Classic doesn't mean that Casual got them interested. New FE fans probably didnt know about the two modes when they bought the game.

[Makaze]

Their refusal to play Classic doesn't mean that Casual got them interested. New FE fans probably didnt know about the two modes when they bought the game.

If that's the case, what would happen with those people if Casual weren't in the game at all?

[The Protagonist]

I imagine they'd struggle to adapt, tell less friends, and many would quit. I suspect casual probably influenced a good number of people, even if not so many as you think, but switching off of easy mode is simply much harder than picking up normal mode without the expectation that the game would be easy.

Edited February 14, 2015 by The Protagonist

[Makaze]

I agree. You don't need a "but" in that sentence. It's all one point.

[shadowofchaos]

I honestly have a lot o faith he can manage hard/classic after playing since the Holiday following FE13's NA release.

...on the other hand, he runs a Raichu with three Electric type attacks then acts confused when I send a Surf/Protect/Wish/Toxic Vaporeon on it and it destroys him.

His skills have nothing to do with it. Would you respect that decision?

[Mighty Kamina]

Casual mode not returning would be utter lunacy. It makes the game way more accessible, and it helped some of my close friends get into the series because of it. I may never play casual mode myself, (as of late I always jump into games with the highest difficulty settings) but it's something that gives the franchise a wider appeal. Which is something that it needs.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Monado Boy

[Loki Laufeyson]

Just gonna pose a quick question out of curiosity's sake. I think I'm in the minority, but am I seriously the only one of the veterans here actually invested in casual mode and actually have fun with it?

NO.

I do not like ballcrushingly hard game difficulties in any form. Ive been into the series since FE7 jumped the pond. Because of Casual mode, i can play Lunatic mode and have a FUCKING GOOD TIME with it. (srsly Lunatic/Casual is so much fun.) Not only that, if i get a really great level up, but someone got axed in the face, i dont have to reset and lose that level up. There are even ways to make strats based around the fact that death isnt final. Casual mode is fun if you just want to faff about, or really have a hard time with a particular difficulty level.

Oh. I didn't even know that existed. I guess it really is casual.

IT'S OPTIONAL. I never use those extra save spots, and theres no reason anyone has to.

Their refusal to play Classic doesn't mean that Casual got them interested. New FE fans probably didnt know about the two modes when they bought the game.

IT'S OPTIONAL. What part of "Casual mode is fucking optional" do people not understand? New FE fans saved the freaking franchise. You want to bellyache about them, remember why FE14 is even a reality in the first place. New FE fans did know about the modes because the fucking Directs talked about them, and so did various gaming sites. You know, resources people look at before buying a game? Not to mention, when you turn on the game for the first time, you pick a mode. There it is in huge friendly letters "Casual: 'Units do not fall permanently in battle.' Classic: "Units fall permanently in battle." And then the various difficulty levels you start with. Normal, Hard, and Lunatic. You have to play Lunatic CLASSIC to unlock Lunatic+. Gee. Seems to me the devs want you to play the Classic mode to get all the goodies.

All this bitching about something optional is ridiculous, and really speaks volumes about how entitled gamers can be.

[Makaze]

IT'S OPTIONAL. I never use those extra save spots, and theres no reason anyone has to.

People refusing to play Classic because they are stuck in baby mode with features like that upsets me. They may not have to play Classic mode, but I'd be a lot happier if they did.

[Mighty Kamina]

People refusing to play Classic because they are stuck in baby mode with features like that upsets me. They may not have to play Classic mode, but I'd be a lot happier if they did.

Why should the way someone else plays a game bother you? Is there something wrong with people having fun they way they like to? You're not being forced to play a "baby" mode, are you?

Edited February 14, 2015 by Monado Boy

[Makaze]

Why should the way someone else plays a game bother you? Is there something wrong with people having fun they way they like to?

There are two basic problems with it.

One, I have more respect and empathy with people who enjoy the same things I do. More of an "I get you" feeling between us. On some level, I enjoy the game for my own reasons. I generally avoid arguing about things like art quality because the only value in talking about it is to find people like you. People who aren't like you add stress, not enjoyment.

Two, their choices affect the industry. i.e. The kinds of games the developers will release in the future. If people buy into things I don't like and actively avoid things I do like, developers will not produce things I will enjoy. That's bad for obvious reasons.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Makaze

[Loki Laufeyson]

People refusing to play Classic because they are stuck in baby mode with features like that upsets me. They may not have to play Classic mode, but I'd be a lot happier if they did.

Freaking deal with it. People make tier lists for Super Smash Bros and i think thats dumb as all hell. But guess what. Im not gonna stop people from doing that and playing that game that way (super competitive) and it actually doesnt really effect how I play the game. So i just go "oh ok. Tiers. LOL. Whatever." Cuz i dont have to pay attention to that and how all those guys play their goddamn game. I can play Smash with the people i want to play with or on other modes. I dont have to attend tourneys. Other people attending tourneys doesnt have any bearing on how i exist. Casual mode's existence and how other people play the game do not have any bearing on how you play the game. In fact, the devs may keep putting it in there, but you will never have to touch that mode. Ever.

Who. Fucking. Cares. About. How. Someone. Else. Is. Playing. A. Game.

. If people buy into things I don't like and actively avoid things I do like, developers will not produce things I will enjoy. That's bad for obvious reasons.

Ugh no. This isnt how it works.

Say FE is a restaurant. You've been going to that restaurant for a while. You always order the steak. The steak is amazing. That steak is why you keep going to the restaurant. Theres others who like that steak too, but their numbers arent hella large. So the restaurant is having troubles cuz they keep selling this steak, but no new customers are coming in and they are losing money. The restaurant says they are going to go out of business. Before they go out of business, they decide to make a new menu as sort of a "Going out of business bang". That new menu brings in a huge influx of customers. However, the steak you love is still on that menu and even the restaurant is putting it on their specials marquee every day. The restaurant wants the new customers to try the steak too. However, they realize that the new menu is making people happy and giving them business. So they decide to NOT go out of business and keep that new menu. Business for them is steady.

The steak is still on the fucking menu. No one is stopping the steak from being made. No one. If you cannot share your space with people who arent ordering the steak, that is your problem,

[The Protagonist]

NO.

I do not like ballcrushingly hard game difficulties in any form. Ive been into the series since FE7 jumped the pond. Because of Casual mode, i can play Lunatic mode and have a FUCKING GOOD TIME with it. (srsly Lunatic/Casual is so much fun.) Not only that, if i get a really great level up, but someone got axed in the face, i dont have to reset and lose that level up. There are even ways to make strats based around the fact that death isnt final. Casual mode is fun if you just want to faff about, or really have a hard time with a particular difficulty level.

IT'S OPTIONAL. I never use those extra save spots, and theres no reason anyone has to.

IT'S OPTIONAL. What part of "Casual mode is fucking optional" do people not understand? New FE fans saved the freaking franchise. You want to bellyache about them, remember why FE14 is even a reality in the first place. New FE fans did know about the modes because the fucking Directs talked about them, and so did various gaming sites. You know, resources people look at before buying a game? Not to mention, when you turn on the game for the first time, you pick a mode. There it is in huge friendly letters "Casual: 'Units do not fall permanently in battle.' Classic: "Units fall permanently in battle." And then the various difficulty levels you start with. Normal, Hard, and Lunatic. You have to play Lunatic CLASSIC to unlock Lunatic+. Gee. Seems to me the devs want you to play the Classic mode to get all the goodies.

All this bitching about something optional is ridiculous, and really speaks volumes about how entitled gamers can be.

You should really stop misrepresenting other people's arguments.

Also, you overstate the research people do before buying games.

Why should the way someone else plays a game bother you? Is there something wrong with people having fun they way they like to? You're not being forced to play a "baby" mode, are you?

Please stop pretending this is a relevant argument. Edited February 14, 2015 by Red Fox of Fire

[Makaze]

Freaking deal with it. People make tier lists for Super Smash Bros and i think thats dumb as all hell. But guess what. Im not gonna stop people from doing that and playing that game that way (super competitive) and it actually doesnt really effect how I play the game. So i just go "oh ok. Tiers. LOL. Whatever." Cuz i dont have to pay attention to that and how all those guys play their goddamn game. I can play Smash with the people i want to play with or on other modes. I dont have to attend tourneys. Other people attending tourneys doesnt have any bearing on how i exist. Casual mode's existence and how other people play the game do not have any bearing on how you play the game. In fact, the devs may keep putting it in there, but you will never have to touch that mode. Ever.

Who. Fucking. Cares. About. How. Someone. Else. Is. Playing. A. Game.

Ugh no. This isnt how it works.

Say FE is a restaurant. You've been going to that restaurant for a while. You always order the steak. The steak is amazing. That steak is why you keep going to the restaurant. Theres others who like that steak too, but their numbers arent hella large. So the restaurant is having troubles cuz they keep selling this steak, but no new customers are coming in and they are losing money. The restaurant says they are going to go out of business. Before they go out of business, they decide to make a new menu as sort of a "Going out of business bang". That new menu brings in a huge influx of customers. However, the steak you love is still on that menu and even the restaurant is putting it on their specials marquee every day. The restaurant wants the new customers to try the steak too. However, they realize that the new menu is making people happy and giving them business. So they decide to NOT go out of business and keep that new menu. Business for them is steady.

The steak is still on the fucking menu. No one is stopping the steak from being made. No one. If you cannot share your space with people who arent ordering the steak, that is your problem,

From my first post in this thread:

Personally, I do not mind the existence of Casual mode, but I will vehemently insist that permadeath is important and has a profound effect on the development and mindset of the player. I can say with a high degree of certainty that I would not be as careful and methodical as I am today if I had not had permadeath in Fire Emblem. As my first tactics based game, it instilled strong desires to find optimal paths. I would not have the same interest in game theory I have today without it. In this author's opinion, it has been an incredibly powerful feature and I would not want others to grow up without that pleasant feeling of tension that only Fire Emblem permadeath provides.

On the market: It does work that way if they don't appreciate the thing I enjoy and actively avoid it. If I am the sole consumer of steak, it will be taken off the menu. It becomes unmanageable to produce steak for the restaurant. They need enough people who want it to keep it there. That is how the market works.

[The Protagonist]

Who. Fucking. Cares. About. How. Someone. Else. Is. Playing. A. Game.

Clearly, we do, and you haven't really presented a reason for why that's wrong.

[Shin]

People refusing to play Classic because they are stuck in baby mode with features like that upsets me. They may not have to play Classic mode, but I'd be a lot happier if they did.

Unfortunately people play the games for their own enjoyment, rather than yours! Whilst casual mode does make things incredibly easy, it's what some people want. When it comes to games, accessibility is important, even if dedicated players of the game find it pointless. Casual mode has most likely helped some people play FE who would have never touched it before, and at the end of the day, its existence doesn't really cause any harm other than the supposed damage to your ego.

There are two basic problems with it.

One, I have more respect and empathy with people who enjoy the same things I do. More of an "I get you" feeling between us. On some level, I enjoy the game for my own reasons. I generally avoid arguing about things like art quality because the only value in talking about it is to find people like you. People who aren't like you add stress, not enjoyment.

Two, their choices affect the industry. i.e. The kinds of games the developers will release in the future. If people buy into things I don't like and actively avoid things I do like, developers will not produce things I will enjoy. That's bad for obvious reasons.

This is less an issue of a game having a casual mode and more of your own inability to relate to and tolerate people who hold different opinions to your own. You may benefit from gaining some understanding into the feelings of other people. By your own logic, the people who play casual should be stressed by you.

Note how Awakening included a wide spectrum of difficulties. Something which has been present from FE8. I wouldn't be too concerned that "casuals" are going to dumb down games for everyone, especially since we've had our fair shares of H5 and Lunatic, which are reasonably difficult for the vast majority of people.

[Loki Laufeyson]

You should really stop misrepresenting other people's arguments.

Also, you overstate the research people do before buying games.

Oh i overstate research? Yeah right.

Person: "Oh look, game. Im going to find things about game."

Youtube, twitch tv, Nintendo Direct, kotaku, gamefaqs, facebook, twitter, reddit, etc. You honestly do not believe people dont google a title before buying it? Misrepresenting? You are doing a fine job of that on your own.

From my first post in this thread:

On the market: It does work that way if they don't appreciate the thing I enjoy and actively avoid it. If I am the sole consumer of steak, it will be taken off the menu. It becomes unmanageable to produce steak for the restaurant. They need enough people who want it to keep it there. That is how the market works.

Rubbish. When the foundations of that restaurant include the steak, its not going anywhere. Not only that, if positive reviews include the steak, the restaurant is probably going to find new ways of making that steak.

Shin illustrated this well with:

Note how Awakening included a wide spectrum of difficulties.

Yeah. You can play Classic with BALL CRUSHINGLY HARD settings, not-so-ball crushingly hard, hard, and a walk in the park. The combos keep people coming back for more.

[The Protagonist]

Unfortunately people play the games for their own enjoyment, rather than yours! Whilst casual mode does make things incredibly easy, it's what some people want. When it comes to games, accessibility is important, even if dedicated players of the game find it pointless. Casual mode has most likely helped some people play FE who would have never touched it before, and at the end of the day, its existence doesn't really cause any harm other than the supposed damage to your ego.

This is less an issue of a game having a casual mode and more of your own inability to relate to and tolerate people who hold different opinions to your own. You may benefit from gaining some understanding into the feelings of other people. By your own logic, the people who play casual should be stressed by you.

Note how Awakening included a wide spectrum of difficulties. Something which has been present from FE8. I wouldn't be too concerned that "casuals" are going to dumb down games for everyone, especially since we've had our fair shares of H5 and Lunatic, which are reasonably difficult for the vast majority of people.

It seems the pro-casual side is not above inventing insults as the reasons for other people disagreeing with them, despite their apparent condemnation of thinking you know other people better than they do. Meanwhile, you continue to miss the point and rely on "you cant tell other people what to do" as if it's a relevant statement in the slightest.

Oh i overstate research? Yeah right.

Person: "Oh look, game. Im going to find things about game."

Yeah, right. People totally look up difficulty settings for Nintendo games in this decade before buying them. Suuuure.

Edited February 14, 2015 by The Protagonist

[Makaze]

This is less an issue of a game having a casual mode and more of your own inability to relate to and tolerate people who hold different opinions to your own. You may benefit from gaining some understanding into the feelings of other people. By your own logic, the people who play casual should be stressed by you.

Note how Awakening included a wide spectrum of difficulties. Something which has been present from FE8. I wouldn't be too concerned that "casuals" are going to dumb down games for everyone, especially since we've had our fair shares of H5 and Lunatic, which are reasonably difficult for the vast majority of people.

You are correct. Neither of us is more "right" to want the things we do. We are just on different sides of the fence. But we still have conflicting desires. If I can convince someone or steer someone to enjoy Classic mode, I will do so, simply because I would like that more than the alternative. I feel this way for the same reason I would try to get someone to play a Fire Emblem game in the first place instead of, say, Final Fantasy Tactics. It's not just that I want them to enjoy a game that fits general criteria of gameplay genre. I want them to have the same experience and enjoy the same things as me. I'd go so far as to say that we all want that from other people and it is the reason we give recommendations in the first place.

Most of the time, I just avoid associating with people I don't empathize with when it comes to things I am passionate about. Art in particular. I hardly post in the actual Fire Emblem sections on this site because I know I will just be stressed out by being a minority, perhaps the only one with my opinion. Why am I in this thread, you might ask? Someone linked it and I was bored. It will probably be a long time before I engage in this again.

The reason I allow this exception is the alarming rate with which complacency has overtaken my peers on this forum. I came to a Fire Emblem community to find people who had similar interests to me, people who understand why the game appealed to me and felt the same way. If I suddenly find myself a part of a minority with very specialized and rare interests, I become upset for the two reasons I mentioned before. I would probably feel much less disgruntled if I felt that my niche in the market was more secure and inviolable.

[Mighty Kamina]

It seems the pro-casual side is not above inventing insults as the reasons for other people disagreeing with them, despite their apparent condemnation of thinking you know other people better than they do.

You're doing the same thing.

Yeah, right. People totally look up difficulty settings for Nintendo games in this decade before buying them. Suuuure.

I know people IRL, and on this forum who would not have gotten into this series if Awakening hadn't included casual mode. Classic mode can actually be pretty daunting to potential newcomers, you know.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Monado Boy

[Makaze]

Rubbish. When the foundations of that restaurant include the steak, its not going anywhere. Not only that, if positive reviews include the steak, the restaurant is probably going to find new ways of making that steak.

Shin illustrated this well with:

Yeah. You can play Classic with BALL CRUSHINGLY HARD settings, not-so-ball crushingly hard, hard, and a walk in the park. The combos keep people coming back for more.

What about the people who insist that the steak foundation is outmoded and that I should stop holding on to the past, that the steak I enjoy are simply bad cooking, and that something other than steak should have been the foundation from the start? These people seem more common every day from where I'm standing.

[Loki Laufeyson]

You are correct. Neither of us is more "right" to want the things we do. We are just on different sides of the fence. But we still have conflicting desires. If I can convince someone or steer someone to enjoy Classic mode, I will do so, simply because I would like that more than the alternative. I feel this way for the same reason I would try to get someone to play a Fire Emblem game in the first place instead of, say, Final Fantasy Tactics. It's not just that I want them to enjoy a game that fits general criteria of gameplay genre. I want them to have the same experience and enjoy the same things as me. I'd go so far as to say that we all want that from other people and it is the reason we give recommendations in the first place.

Most of the time, I just avoid associating with people I don't empathize with when it comes to things I am passionate about. Art in particular. I hardly post in the actual Fire Emblem sections on this site because I know I will just be stressed out by being a minority, perhaps the only one with my opinion. Why am I in this thread, you might ask? Someone linked it and I was bored. It will probably be a long time before I engage in this again.

The reason I allow this exception is the alarming rate with which complacency has overtaken my peers on this forum. I came to a Fire Emblem community to find people who had similar interests to me, people who understand why the game appealed to me and felt the same way. If I suddenly find myself a part of a minority with very specialized and rare interests, I become upset for the two reasons I mentioned before. I would probably feel much less disgruntled if I felt that my niche in the market was more secure and inviolable.

In a nutshell, brah. I wouldnt stress it too much because i doubt the gameplay elements you long for are going anywhere. We dont even have confirmation on this new title having a marriage system. (kinda hope it doesnt)

What about the people who insist that the steak foundation is outmoded and that I should stop holding on to the past, that the steak I enjoy are simply bad cooking, and that something other than steak should have been the foundation from the start? These people seem more common every day from where I'm standing.

Those guys are more of a minority than you think. I havent seen anyone complain about Classic mode when they dont have to play it. Also, this is you caring way too much about what other people think.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Loki Laufeyson

[Shin]

That stuff Makaze said.

That's fair enough. You're very entitled to your opinion and your feelings behind it, but do be careful when using it as justification in an argument like this! Whilst the community is going to shift and change, there are likely to always be people you'll be able to relate too. Just remember that the other side of fence aren't too bad to have barbecues with!

Protagonist, Makaze himself has responded to my comments. I'm afraid your own didn't really contribute to the discussion. I'm less pro-casual and more pro-dowhateveryoulikeitsyourgame. Funnily enough your own accusations are actually pretty reflective of your own post. As Makaze has understood, none of post content was inflammatory and I was rather pleased with his response.

P.S As charming as I may seem, I'm not actually a "casual"! I haven't touched normal nor the casual mode in FE13!

[The Protagonist]

You're doing the same thing.

I know people IRL, and on this forum who would not have gotten into this series if Awakening hadn't included casual mode. Classic mode can actually be pretty daunting to potential newcomers, you know.

1. Actually, my whole thing about the condemnation was to explain that you all called me out for a crime I never committed, only to commit it yourselves. Personal attacks and wild explanations for other people on your side, and some rather impersonal justifications and findings of science from me.

2. That's great and all, but I doubt that it was as decisive a factor as the waifu game people went crazy for, as well as the demand for a good 3DS title. I still doubt strongly that a large number of people joined due to a mode they had very little reason to hear about.

Protagonist, Makaze himself has responded to my comments. I'm afraid your own didn't really contribute to the discussion. I'm less pro-casual and more pro-dowhateveryoulikeitsyourgame. Funnily enough your own accusations are actually pretty reflective of your own post. As Makaze has understood, none of post content was inflammatory and I was rather pleased with his response.

P.S As charming as I may seem, I'm not actually a "casual"! I haven't touched normal nor the casual mode in FE13!

Considering your constant misunderstanding and misrepresentation of everything said here, I'm going to have to discount this. I repeat, you have no fucking idea what you're talking about.

Also, pro-casual meant you supported the casual mode, and everyone who glorifies casual gaming pretends it's about freedom of choice.

Edited February 14, 2015 by The Protagonist

[Shin]

Considering your constant misunderstanding and misrepresentation of everything said here, I'm going to have to discount this. I repeat, you have no fucking idea what you're talking about.

I've only really commented on one post from both you and Makaze. I have a feeling this has become less about the actual argument at hand and more about trying to discredit me to avoid looking silly. We've already established the issues regarding differing opinions, but if you have anything else you'd like to say to me outside of the context of whether a casual mode should be included in future FE games, you're fully welcome to contact me.