Should Casual Return?

[Gradivus.]

still not as fundamental of a feature as permadeath; it only adds canonical relationships among characters and changes stats like dodge and hit.

[Emeraldfox]

Waifus have been in FE long before Awakening. I giggle everytime folks forget that.

I say yes, because Wynaut. Isn't it part of the reason why Awakening is popular in the first place? Why take it out in FE14? Pretty goofy.

[Baldrick]

In Awakening you have a self-insert who can marry the characters. By your definition waifuism is in everything, I could decide Charlie Brown or Gandalf or lamp is my waifu.

[Emeraldfox]

Are they your waifus? But yeah, so. No one needed an avatar to waifu anyone in Fire Emblem.

[Baldrick]

That's why the Avatar needs to be removed. Losers who can't waifu shit without an Avatar need to git gud.

[Emeraldfox]

Next time I go through Awakening I'll name the Avatar Crutch. Becausethat's what they are.

[Vascela]

still not as fundamental of a feature as permadeath; it only adds canonical relationships among characters and changes stats like dodge and hit.

Would you think of this as a utilitarian standpoint? If it isn't clear already, permadeath isn't the only aspect of gameplay (it is important to FE's history, that I will not argue against). How much are you willing to give to understand that the opposite standpoint is to give classic it's safehaven as the option, but also realize that keeping Casual is a boon that is worth something. It might not hold much value to you, but you should acknowledge that permadeath is a section of gameplay a lot players don't need to play around.

Supports and calculations are only 2 fundamentals of gameplay that are pretty important (even coming from a "purist" standpoint, you would want to keep those successful features). And that was thinking in the moment. There are still other sections of gameplay such as adapting to weapon ranks, access of gaidens, and weighing the value of visiting villages, resource allocation. Anyone can go on and on and on about core gameplay mechanics that make FE... well, FE. And if you tally it all up, if you omit permadeath (which isn't what anyone is asking for, people want both) even then you still have FE. You cut off someone's hand and they are still human. You cut off a leg, and he's still human.

From an extreme view that classic is removed (no matter how blasphemous), there is still plenty of FE rich content to still hold true its name.

[solrocknroll]

literally why are people getting upset over how some people choose to play the game

it's like getting upset that an ice cream shop only ever sold chocolate for years, but one day it started selling vanilla and yet kept the chocolate

why do the vanilla people bother you chocolate people

[Baldrick]

We're not knocking the vanilla ice-cream out of people's hands.

Why do we bother you.

[solrocknroll]

We're not knocking the vanilla ice-cream out of people's hands.

Why do we bother you.

Uh, I'm pretty sure there are people here who wish Casual never existed so...

I don't even play Casual, but I have a friend who got into FE through me and Smash Bros and my brother both play on Casual. Would there be any reason to alienate them?

[Sentacotus]

In Awakening you have a self-insert who can marry the characters. By your definition waifuism is in everything, I could decide Charlie Brown or Gandalf or lamp is my waifu.

In Fire Emblem If I'm going to name my avatar Brick and he will love chair, floor, and lamp.

[Baldrick]

That's different to wanting to take away Casual from people. If the store never sold vanilla ice-cream in the first place, those who like it can buy it from another store.

Why do we bother you? Do you think this thread will have any influence whatsoever on whether or not Casual returns?

@Taco: Reclass him to Knight so he can stab people in the heart with a trident.

Edited February 19, 2015 by Baldrick

[solrocknroll]

That's different to wanting to take away Casual from people. If the store never sold vanilla ice-cream in the first place, those who like it can buy it from another store.

Why do we bother you? Do you think this thread will have any influence whatsoever on whether or not Casual returns?

Two factors saved the ice cream shop.

1. Better advertising budget. Signs all over town

2. Vanilla

Even with the advertisement, many new people might have come and not liked the chocolate as much as they think, so they go spend business else. Then the ice cream shop dies.

That's why it's bothersome. This series could have died because of people's elite attitudes toward permadeath.

[Vascela]

That's different to wanting to take away Casual from people. If the store never sold vanilla ice-cream in the first place, those who like it can buy it from another store.

Why do we bother you? Do you think this thread will have any influence whatsoever on whether or not Casual returns?

@Taco: Reclass him to Knight so he can stab people in the heart with a trident.

First of all, expanding a store can definitely be seen as a positive thing rather than a negative one (unless you wanted to argue Econ 101 about how casual is a perfect representation for short run/long run argument). I would hope that the idea of removing a key feature to why people entered or keep playing the game would be upsetting to those players.

Why do we bother you? There isn't some double standard where classic is in jeopardy.

And of course this thread doesn't impact it. Doesn't hurt to be thought provoking.

[feplus]

Would you think of this as a utilitarian standpoint? If it isn't clear already, permadeath isn't the only aspect of gameplay (it is important to FE's history, that I will not argue against). How much are you willing to give to understand that the opposite standpoint is to give classic it's safehaven as the option, but also realize that keeping Casual is a boon that is worth something. It might not hold much value to you, but you should acknowledge that permadeath is a section of gameplay a lot players don't need to play around.

Supports and calculations are only 2 fundamentals of gameplay that are pretty important (even coming from a "purist" standpoint, you would want to keep those successful features). And that was thinking in the moment. There are still other sections of gameplay such as adapting to weapon ranks, access of gaidens, and weighing the value of visiting villages, resource allocation. Anyone can go on and on and on about core gameplay mechanics that make FE... well, FE. And if you tally it all up, if you omit permadeath (which isn't what anyone is asking for, people want both) even then you still have FE. You cut off someone's hand and they are still human. You cut off a leg, and he's still human.

From an extreme view that classic is removed (no matter how blasphemous), there is still plenty of FE rich content to still hold true its name.

Correct me if I am mistaken, but what you seem to be arguing is that Casual Mode is a fine inclusion on the grounds that permadeath is just one core mechanic of the series among others, [ii] the games can be enjoyed without permadeath, and [iii] Casual holds "utilitarian" (i.e. financial) value insofar as it brings new players to the fold.

Is that right?

If so, consider the case of Metroid. Exploration is considered a defining aspect of the series, but it has other defining aspects too- things like atmosphere, intelligent backtracking, item collection, and tightly designed action setpieces. Imagine the next Metroid game introduced its own Casual Mode: here, the player is handed a detailed map right from the get-go, complete with all item locations laid out. Yes, it's true that exploration is just one core aspect of the series among others, [ii] the games can be enjoyed without exploration, and [iii] Casual holds financial value insofar as it brings new players to the fold.

Surely it'd be fair to argue that Metroid's Casual Mode is a net negative even if it's more accessible.

[Baldrick]

And some people would have found they did like the chocolate.

We have no control over what the store does. If you don't like what we're saying, why don't you ignore us and let us have our fun? Isn't that the argument directed towards people who don't care for Casual Mode?

@Vascela; do you think Casual Mode is in jeopardy? If IS were to remove one of the mode, it would be Classic. Not that them removing either mode is likely.

[omega zero]

Surely it'd be fair to argue that Metroid's Casual Mode is a net negative even if it's more accessible.

Has the argument you are alluding to been mentioned previously or do you have something else in mind?

Edit: Metroid Casual already kinda exists. Online item guides.

Edited February 19, 2015 by omega zero

[feplus]

No, I made up that hypothetical as a thought experiment.

Online item guides do make things easier, but aren't a part of the game itself.

[Florete]

If so, consider the case of Metroid. Exploration is considered a defining aspect of the series, but it has other defining aspects too- things like atmosphere, intelligent backtracking, item collection, and tightly designed action setpieces. Imagine the next Metroid game introduced its own Casual Mode: here, the player is handed a detailed map right from the get-go, complete with all item locations laid out. Yes, it's true that [1] exploration is just one core aspect of the series among others, [ii] the games can be enjoyed without exploration, and [iii] Casual holds financial value insofar as it brings new players to the fold.

Surely it'd be fair to argue that Metroid's Casual Mode is a net negative even if it's more accessible.

This is a really bad hypothetical.

To start, exploration is the defining aspect of Metroid. Hell, it created a genre as a result. Perma-death is not the defining aspect of Fire Emblem, not by a long shot.

Furthermore, Metroid games already give you maps. Every game since Fusion/Prime has some way of mapping out the area for you, whether it be a map room or something else (Super Metroid might have for all I know, but I didn't play it). Some of these even show the player which rooms have hidden items. Somehow, this didn't kill the defining aspect of the series.

"Casual mode" in Metroid would be more like each expansion giving double the normal amount, but Metroid doesn't really have an - for lack of a better term - "anti-casual" mechanic like Fire Emblem's perma-death in the first place.

[feplus]

I don't see exploration as the defining aspect of Metroid (I'd argue it's the unique combination of action and lonely atmosphere). The maps of later games show dots indicating where some items are, but generally speaking you need to find these areas first, and [ii] figure out how to get the items. In our hypothetical Metroid Casual, such exploration and puzzles wouldn't be an issue.

If you don't like that particular analogy, we could construct others. Pick a game series, pick out an aspect that is important- though not central- and erase that aspect in the name of accessibility. Wouldn't it be reasonable for a person to argue such an erasure, even if optional, worsens the game?

At this point my only goal is to convince people that opposing the inclusion of Casual doesn't make you an elitist, new player-hating, self-serving, myopic jerk.

[Florete]

I don't see exploration as the defining aspect of Metroid (I'd argue it's the unique combination of action and lonely atmosphere). The maps of later games show dots indicating where some items are, but generally speaking you need to find these areas first, and [ii] figure out how to get the items. In our hypothetical Metroid Casual, such exploration and puzzles wouldn't be an issue.

If this were included in a separate game mode (Metroid games do typically have difficulty settings), I wouldn't care, and I don't think most Metroid fans would, either.

If you don't like that particular analogy, we could construct others. Pick a game series, pick out an aspect that is important- though not central- and erase that aspect in the name of accessibility. Wouldn't it be reasonable for a person to argue such an erasure, even if optional, worsens the game?

At this point my only goal is to convince people that opposing the inclusion of Casual doesn't make you an elitist, new player-hating, self-serving, myopic jerk.

If it's optional, I can't see myself having a problem with it, or thinking it "worsens" the game.

For whatever it means to you, I don't think you're an elitist, new player-hating, self-serving, myopic jerk. I think you've even made some fair points, but I ultimately still don't agree that Casual mode makes the game any worse.

[euklyd]

What are we even arguing anymore I can't tell?
About whether people should be able to complain about something? Whether fans complaints matter when the game makers are for-profit entities?
About whether Casual Mode should have been in?
About whether permadeath is integral to Fire Emblem / how integral permadeath is to Fire Emblem?
What?

I had thought it was that Casual Mode could have been implemented in a more ideal way.

Honestly this is confusing me.
...I kind of wish someone just made a new thread with a title / OP that actually says what it is that's being discussed because it looks to me like there are four conversations going on at once, and *certain people* don't seem to see who is talking about what.

That's why the Avatar needs to be removed. Losers who can't waifu shit without an Avatar need to git gud.

dude holy shit

that + "KoF XIII sux go play KoF 2002 instead" makes this entire thread worth it imo

[Baldrick]

What are we even arguing anymore I can't tell?

I don't know, but I do know in about 12,000 pages we'll have moved on to whether Wario is a libertarian.

[euklyd]

he's one of those anarchist biker dudes

they're basically libertarians right?

"something something casual mode is ok I guess just make it cooler in fe14 plz"

actually I do think "what would you have preferred casual mode to look like" would be like, the most constructive of those topics

that is, after any discussion about Wario's political leanings, ofc

[Vascela]

And some people would have found they did like the chocolate.

We have no control over what the store does. If you don't like what we're saying, why don't you ignore us and let us have our fun? Isn't that the argument directed towards people who don't care for Casual Mode?

@Vascela; do you think Casual Mode is in jeopardy? If IS were to remove one of the mode, it would be Classic. Not that them removing either mode is likely.

I do not think casual in jeopardy. It seems fairly obvious to me to keep successful traits. There's the situation where IS wants to try new things (such as the jump from FE1 to 2, from 4 to 5, from 5 to 6, etc.). Either casual is staying as it is, or casual will be slightly altered. That's just coming from a dev standpoint who wants to be successful. And by successful, I mean they would want to have sold more by this change (or not changing) that by removing it.

As for bad analogies we can compare to, I don't think I'm qualified to answer metroid questions (never beat one, only played prime for like ~1 hour when I was younger). If they gave me the option of having a free map, I don't think that would harm the feeling at all. I'm still the one going through all the puzzle/challenge rooms much like how casual is going through the exact same chapters as you.