Titania is the best in the game.

[CGV]

They're not in a similar position at all. Mages can actually counter enemy attacks, archers can't. Mages can choose when they are countered, archers can't. Etcetera.

I think what she meant is that even though mages can attack back, they generally have less defense than archers. So yes, mages can attack back, but they also would be killed quicker as well simply because of low defense (This is all for going against melee weapons, btw)

[sandmanccl]

I ignore every argument? I reply to every argument made against me, so I don't know where you got this crap from. I mean, seriously.

With the same tired response that doesn't actually address what's been placed before you.

Just because you can't stand it that you're losing debates doesn't mean that I'm all of a sudden a bigger ass than you. Perhaps I am an ass, but that doesn't matter. If you can't have it that you lose, then just stop debating here right now.

Seriously, you have flamed me enough now. A simply debate is not a good reason to start flaming, man.

I'm losing since when? Your argument is downright silly, and the fact you're taking the elitism approach to it makes me irate. The fact that you're anti-ranged units from the flawed standpoint that "THEY CAN'T COUNTER IN MELEE!)!)!))!!!!!" is just pathetic. That's like saying there's no use for rockets in Advance Wars, or no use for Snipers in Dawn of War, or no use for Siege Tanks in Star Craft. Kill the enemy before they get to you and you risk minimal casualties.

I might be in the minority, but (yes indeed, I say "BUT") that doesn't matter at all. If 100 people say that 1 + 1 = 3 and I am the only person who says that 1 + 1 = 2, then I'm clearly the one who is right. Same story here. I'm right, you're not.

Like I said before, it has nothing to do with playing style, because everybody plays the game in a different way. However, that doesn't mean that all those people who play the game so defensively get max BEXP on Hard Mode. In fact, I'm sure that most don't, and the ones who do get max BEXP see how their archers see next to no combat on the enemy phase.

This has everything to do with playstyle. Everything. They MIGHT NOT GET MAX BONUS EXPERIENCE ON HARD MODE. That means: fuck all. I don't know if you know this or not, but Path of Radiance is probably the easiest entry in the entire series save Sacred Stones, and that's only if you tower/random battle abuse. You're telling people they shouldn't use archers and that archers are a worthless unit rather than saying "if you want to maximize your bonus experience, archers are probably not the best way to go." I hate swordmasters and it kind of bothers me they are the most popular class among the fanbase, but you know what? Power to people who use them and make them a valuable member of their team.

You seriously should calm down.

Get off your high-horse first, Mr. Fire Emblem Expert.

No, I don't like restarting, but sometimes I have to. Point is, we don't debate according to playing styles, but rather according to averages, facts, goals and debating standards.

Perhaps nobody is listening to me, but I honestly don't care. It's just a matter of you people not wanting to admit that you're wrong. I mean, let me pick one thing I said somewhere in this debate...

"Archers have no close-range option at all, just long range. That fails."

It's simply the truth. Nobody can prove me wrong on this, yet you all say that I'm wrong. Very nice.

This indeed isn't debate class, this is an actual debate, and if you want to participate in it, you should follow the standard debating rules and standards.

You seem to think that there's a goal beyond "beating the game." That's why your ENTIRE ARGUMENT and your elitism on the subject is incredibly absurd. Also, you should never have to restart. I don't ever have to restart. You know why? Because the game ISN'T all about averages. It's about making the best use of your army. Even if that guy never sees combat ever, you can still make good use of anyone if you put your mind to it.

You're not even trying to win the debate anymore, you are simply pissed off that you couldn't win and now you're flaming me as much as you can. That, good sir, is a sign of weakness, in my opinion. And that's not meant as an offense, but rather as something for you to think about.

You're a fucking retard if you think that. :) I love people with over-inflated egos. You are as blind to what I'm saying as you think I am to what you're saying.

You're missing my point entirely so let me recap in the hopes you actually read this:

1) Archers have a place on anyone's team with half-a-brain. They're excellent at attacking mages because on average they have good resistance, good speed, and enough damage to take them down, while minimizing the damage that's going to be inflicted to your tank units (because often enough, you can't completely one-shot an enemy and it will counter attack for fairly decent damage as most tank units have crappy resistances.)

2) Your entire argument is based around the fact that archers can't counter melee people, when that is pretty silly because the majority of your units should never see combat on an enemy turn anyway.

3) Path of Radiance is probably the easiest Fire Emblem outside of Sacred Stones, and therefore strategizing on how to get "max bonus experience" is an exercise in uselessness because if you really need all the possible bonus experience to beat this game, you're not very good at strategy games. Telling people who can already beat the game without any problem how they can maximize something they completely don't care about is, well, useless.

[Florete]

No, no, no, no and no.

They're not in a similar position at all. Mages can actually counter enemy attacks, archers can't. Mages can choose when they are countered, archers can't. Etcetera.

Scenario: Mage is attacked. Mage gets hurt, kills enemy. Mage is attacked again. Mage dies. It's a blessing as well as a curse. You aren't always wanting to counter at all.

[Meteor]

Titania has red hair. Who cares about stats!

[Swordsalmon]

Scenario: Mage is attacked. Mage gets hurt, kills enemy. Mage is attacked again. Mage dies. It's a blessing as well as a curse. You aren't always wanting to counter at all.

Scenario: Archer is attacked. Archer is hurt, does no damage to enemy. Another enemy attacks and kills Archer.

Countering is always more useful than not countering, because it deals more damage.

Also, Ilyana is the only good Sage in FE9, and she'll be three-rounded. ;)

And Meteor, you are awesome. :) *Hugs*

[StalkerPizza]

Soren?

[Swordsalmon]

He has decent offense, but no defenses and is a massive hindrance for quite a while.

[Florete]

Scenario: Archer is attacked. Archer is hurt, does no damage to enemy. Another enemy can't attack as a result of the previous one being in the way. Archer lives.

fix'd. And archers generally have better durability/avoid than mages anyway, so they likely won't be two-shotted except right when you get them, and they shouldn't be front-lining anyway.

[Swordsalmon]

fix'd. And archers generally have better durability/avoid than mages anyway, so they likely won't be two-shotted except right when you get them, and they shouldn't be front-lining anyway.

Too bad that a character can be attacked in four different positions directly. You're changes are irrelevant.

Prove how the Archers have any more durability than the Mages. On the contrary, the Mages in FE9 have better durability. Ilyana has epic defenses from her incredible supports, Soren can possibly gain Avoid, Calill has Avoid-boosting supports in Nephenee and potential Tormod, and Bastian...well, he's horrible, but at least isn't two-rounded.

On the other hand, Rofl is killed by everything everywhere and never has good enough HP or Defense, and Shinon is too underleveled.

[Florete]

Too bad that a character can be attacked in four different positions directly. You're changes are irrelevant.

Prove how the Archers have any more durability than the Mages. On the contrary, the Mages in FE9 have better durability. Ilyana has epic defenses from her incredible supports, Soren can possibly gain Avoid, Calill has Avoid-boosting supports in Nephenee and potential Tormod, and Bastian...well, he's horrible, but at least isn't two-rounded.

On the other hand, Rolf is killed by everything everywhere and never has good enough HP or Defense, and Shinon is too underleveled.

Are you sending Rolf out to be attacked by four enemies? If you are, you better have a damn good game plan. Your archer should be far back enough so that only one enemy, if any, can reach him/her. Rolf has better speed, HP, and defense growths than Ilyana, and loses in luck just barely (Her 45 to his 40).

Looking at supports, Ilyana with Zihark or Lucia gets her +23 avoid and +2 defense, or with Mordecai for +3 defense. Zihark and Mordecai are the only ones possibly worth using, but those bonuses are damn good.

Rolf with Shinon or Tauroneo gets +15 avoid and +2 def, or with Mist to get +8 avoid and +2 def. Mist is the only one worth using, so Rolf's superior growths in those areas pretty much cancel things out against Ilyana. But, since Mist also is not a front-liner, it helps his case that he's very likely to be near her. Rolf and Mist also grows much faster than Ilyana and Zihark or Mordecai, especially Zihark. Note that I only mentioned terms of durability here, as that is what is in question.

His only real disadvantage is coming at a low level, but that's easily fixed and he can easily be up to par by level 5-8.

Edited September 19, 2008 by Fox

[Tino]

With the same tired response that doesn't actually address what's been placed before you.

The same response? Perhaps. The point is that I'm right, and you fail to see it.

I'm losing since when? Your argument is downright silly, and the fact you're taking the elitism approach to it makes me irate. The fact that you're anti-ranged units from the flawed standpoint that "THEY CAN'T COUNTER IN MELEE!)!)!))!!!!!" is just pathetic. That's like saying there's no use for rockets in Advance Wars, or no use for Snipers in Dawn of War, or no use for Siege Tanks in Star Craft. Kill the enemy before they get to you and you risk minimal casualties.

It's not a standpoint, it's a fact. All I have said all the time is that snipers can't counter melee combat, and you have yet to give a good argument against that.

You can't compare Fire Emblem with games like Advance Wars. They're completely different. They're not even the in the same gaming genre. Strategy Roleplaying Game and Strategy are two completely different things.

This has everything to do with playstyle. Everything. They MIGHT NOT GET MAX BONUS EXPERIENCE ON HARD MODE. That means: fuck all. I don't know if you know this or not, but Path of Radiance is probably the easiest entry in the entire series save Sacred Stones, and that's only if you tower/random battle abuse. You're telling people they shouldn't use archers and that archers are a worthless unit rather than saying "if you want to maximize your bonus experience, archers are probably not the best way to go." I hate swordmasters and it kind of bothers me they are the most popular class among the fanbase, but you know what? Power to people who use them and make them a valuable member of their team.

Difficulty is completely irrelevant. If a character sucks, that character sucks, no matter how easy the game is. If that character is two-rounded, then no matter how hard or easy the game is, that character is two-rounded.

And now you're completely wrong. I'm not telling people that they shouldn't use archers. You can use archers if you want. I only say that archers suck, especially in this game. And indeed, archers are pretty much impossible to use if you are aiming for max BEXP, which we aim for in debates. Swordmasters are much better than snipers, but the only valuable swordmaster in this game is Zihark with his Earth affinity. Lucia is the second worst unit in the game, Mia downright sucks and Stefan is only really useful for a couple of chapters and has no supports.

You seem to think that there's a goal beyond "beating the game." That's why your ENTIRE ARGUMENT and your elitism on the subject is incredibly absurd. Also, you should never have to restart. I don't ever have to restart. You know why? Because the game ISN'T all about averages. It's about making the best use of your army. Even if that guy never sees combat ever, you can still make good use of anyone if you put your mind to it.

The game isn't about averages, no. Debates however, are about averages, support options, joining conditions, availability, skills and all those other things. We're not playing the game right now, we're debating. All you have to do is see the difference between the two.

And about the "if you put mind to it" or "if you use him right" and all those other things. We all know how Lucia is one of the worst units in the game. But "if you put mind to her" she suddenly becomes better? Haha, nice try. And guess what, the same applies to Rolf. He sucks and there's nothing you can do about it.

1) Archers have a place on anyone's team with half-a-brain. They're excellent at attacking mages because on average they have good resistance, good speed, and enough damage to take them down, while minimizing the damage that's going to be inflicted to your tank units (because often enough, you can't completely one-shot an enemy and it will counter attack for fairly decent damage as most tank units have crappy resistances.)

Your own mages are better for taking them down, because enemy mages have such crappy HP that even with a double attack from Ilyana or Tormod you can kill them, and both of them receive no damage in return. And Rolf fares well against mages, huh? Well, there are some mages in chapter 9. Let's see how he really fares against them.

Rolf has 18 HP and 2 Res. A Level 7 Thunder Mage (the weakest of the bunch of mages) has 11 Att and 4 AS. Rolf is two-rounded. Yes, very good. And guess what, there are also a Level 10 Fire Mage. It has 13 Att, and 8 AS. He attacks Rolf and then the next enemy who attacks him kills him. Wow, nice job, Rolf.

Also, Rolf can't do shit against the higher leveled mages here (there are indeed two or three of them). The level 10 mages have 23 HP and 5 Def. Rolf has 13 Att. So he three-rounds them. However, he'll receive a counter and then it's just a matter of time before he's killed. Really nice.

Now, let's go to chapter 16 or so. Rolf will be level 10 by then, but mainly because of the BEXP he has received. He's only level 10 because of crappy offense and durability and no counter on the enemy phase. He has 4 Res and 23 HP.

A level 16 Elfire Mage has 25 HP, 19 Att, 10 AS and 7 Def. He two-rounds Rolf. Steel Bow Rolf has 18 Att, so he three-rounds, where pretty much all your other units two-round, including Ilyana.

So no, he's not good against mages at all.

2) Your entire argument is based around the fact that archers can't counter melee people, when that is pretty silly because the majority of your units should never see combat on an enemy turn anyway.

Let me say some stuff about Rolf.

Rolf is there to fight enemies. That's his job. Now, there's no such a thing as an EXP rank here, so it doesn't matter that he gains more EXP for a kill than other characters. And to continue on the "other characters" part, Rolf fails. Crappy offense, crappy durability and the worst class in the game. By using Rolf, the team is worse off than when he is replaced by a character who is actually good. Remember how I said that he has to fight things? Well, there are many, many more fighters. And guess what? He's a lot worse than all those other fighteres. He joins as your worst character, and even if you give him more EXP than he deserved on average, he will remain sucky. Rolf is a massive detriment to the team.

3) Path of Radiance is probably the easiest Fire Emblem outside of Sacred Stones, and therefore strategizing on how to get "max bonus experience" is an exercise in uselessness because if you really need all the possible bonus experience to beat this game, you're not very good at strategy games. Telling people who can already beat the game without any problem how they can maximize something they completely don't care about is, well, useless.

In debates there's something you need to aim for. In Path of Radiance debates, we aim for max BEXP, and that's a simple fact. Simple debating standards.

And I don't tell how people have to beat the game, I debate whether a character is good or not.

Are you sending Rolf out to be attacked by four enemies? If you are, you better have a damn good game plan. Your archer should be far back enough so that only one enemy, if any, can reach him/her. Rolf has better speed, HP, and defense growths than Ilyana, and loses in luck just barely (Her 45 to his 40).

Are you preventing your team from advancing? I hope you're not. And if you actually do that and no enemy can attack him, then all you do is waste a turn, and that's not what you want.

Ilyana has supports, Rolf has not. Ilyana has Mordecai and Zihark. Rolf has Rhys, who has Kieran and Titania. Shinon sucks. Marcia has Tanith and Kieran. Mist has Titania and Jill and Tauroneo isn't played, because even though I love him, he's not good enough to be played.

His only real disadvantage is coming at a low level, but that's easily fixed and he can easily be up to par by level 5-8.

No. He dies in one or two hits from everything he comes across in the early chapters. He'll never really catch up because he only gains EXP half the time.

[Leonri]

"No defences"? lol. Rolf have a max defence stat of 25, and a good chance to reach it. One of the most defensive archers ever. Titania has a cap of 27 and no chanse to reach. Also his avoid is very good as well, so he's safe enough above level 5.

Why are you comparing level 1 Rolf to level 10 mages?

"Crappy offense" Again, where is this coming from? A stat cap of 25, chance of 33 to cap. This is very decent. Add his high crit and he's a force to be reckoned with.

Also bows are very good weapons. Decent power, very high hit, non existant weight. Loads of speciality ones and extended range bows. Unaffected by weapons triangle and extra damage to a common type of enemy. Sounds pretty good to me.

Also even though it's very unlikely that your unit will be completely surrounded, Rolf could survive it. I know. I've seen him get hit by four Wyvern Lords in a row, and still have 2/3 HP. I know, I know, PEMN, but that same scenario played out one hundred times would only have him die about three times.

[Tino]

You want proof of him failing epicly? Here you go.

CHAPTER 9

Level 1 Rolf's Bow Rolf

18 HP, 13 Attack, 120 Hit, 6 AS, 6 Def, 2 Res, 16 Avoid

Level 11 Steel Axe Fighter

34 HP, 22 Attack, 84 Hit, 4 AS, 8 Def, 11 Avoid

Level 10 Fire Mage

23 HP, 13 Attack, 111 Hit, 8 AS, 5 Def, 18 Avoid

Level 13 Steel Lance Knight

30 HP, 21 Attack, 87 Hit, 2 AS, 18 Def, 7 Avoid

Level 13 Iron Sword Myrmidon

26 HP, 15 Attack, 120 Hit, 13 AS, 7 Def, 30 Avoid

Level 11 Steel Lance Soldier

28 HP, 18 Attack, 90 Hit, 3 AS, 8 Def, 8 Avoid

Level 11 Steel Bow Archer

24 HP, 16 Attack, 99 Hit, 7 AS, 8 Def, 17 Avoid

Level 10 Venin Axe Bandit

34 HP, 15 Attack, 70 Hit, 7 AS, 6 Def, 16 Avoid

Note: hit = true hit rounded to the nearest whole number.

Fighter: Rolf seven-rounds at 100% hit, is two-rounded at 80% hit.

Mage: Rolf three-rounds at 100% hit, is two-rounded at 100% hit.

Knight: Rolf can't kill at 100% hit, is two-rounded at 83% hit.

Myrmidon: Rolf five-rounds at 98% hit, is one-rounded at 100% hit.

Soldier: Rolf six-rounds at 100% hit, is two-rounded at 87% hit.

Archer: Rolf five-rounds at 100% hit, is two-rounded at 94% hit.

Bandit: Rolf five-rounds at 100% hit, is two-rounded at 58% hit.

The only enemy against which he stands a small chance of surviving is the Bandit, but if he goes for the bandits, he gets killed by the other enemies. The best he can do is three-round a mage, but he gets countered and one more attack will kill him. He can't even damage knights. He is two-rounded by everything and even one-rounded by myrmidons. He fails in this chapter. He can't survive, he can't kill.

CHAPTER 13

Chapter 10 has no combat action, so Rolf will be level, say, 6.

Level 6 Steel Bow Rolf

21 HP, 16 Attack, 106 Hit, 7 AS, 8 Def, 3 Res, 20 Avoid

Level 15 Steel Sword Myrmidon

27 HP, 20 Attack, 107 Hit, 15 AS, 7 Def, 34 Avoid

Level 14 Steel Lance Soldier

31 HP, 20 Attack, 95 Hit, 7 AS, 9 Def, 17 Avoid

Level 3 Steel Lance Halberdier

37 HP, 22 Attack, 99 Hit, 11 AS, 12 Def, 25 Avoid

Level 16 Steel Bow Archer

27 HP, 19 Attack, 107 Hit, 12 AS, 10 Def, 28 Avoid

Level 13 Steel Axe Fighter

35 HP, 23 Attack, 86 Hit, 5 AS, 8 Def, 13 Avoid

Level 13 Thunder Mage

24 HP, 15 Attack, 103 Hit, 9 AS, 6 Def, 20 Avoid

Level 4 Beak Raven

30 HP, 18 Attack, 115 Hit, 15 AS, 11 Def, 31 Avoid

Myrmidon: Rolf three-rounds at 85% hit, is one-rounded at 97% hit.

Soldier: Rolf five-rounds at 98% hit, is two-rounded at 88% hit.

Halberdier: Rolf ten-rounds at 93% hit, is one-rounded at 91% hit.

Archer: Rolf five-rounds at 91% hit, is one-rounded at 97% hit.

Fighter: Rolf five-rounds at 99% hit, is two-rounded at 77% hit.

Mage: Rolf three-rounds at 96% hit, is two-rounded at 94% hit.

Raven: Rolf two-rounds at 88% hit, is two-rounded at 100% hit.

Lol. He fails even more than in chapter 9. I was wrong. Apparently he doesn't fail. He fails really hard.

CHAPTER 18

Rolf will be level 13. Yes, he levels that slowly.

Level 13 Steel Bow Rolf

25 HP, 19 Attack, 115 Hit, 12 AS, 10 Def, 5 Res, 33 Avoid

Level 18 Steel Lance Soldier

34 HP, 21 Attack, 98 Hit, 10 AS, 11 Def, 24 Avoid

Level 3 Steel Lance Halberdier

37 HP, 22 Attack, 99 Hit, 11 AS, 12 Def, 25 Avoid

Level 19 Steel Bow Archer

30 HP, 19 Attack, 107 Hit, 13 AS, 11 Def, 31 Avoid

Level 18 Steel Lance Wyvern Rider

35 HP, 26 Attack, 98 Hit, 9 AS, 17 Def, 22 Avoid

Level 20 Steel Axe Fighter

40 HP, 26 Attack, 93 Hit, 12 AS, 11 Def, 29 Avoid

Level 3 Steel Axe Warrior

44 HP, 27 Attack, 93 Hit, 12 AS, 11 Def, 29 Avoid

Level 3 Elthunder Sage

29 HP, 20 Attack, 100 Hit, 12 AS, 9 Def, 27 Avoid

Level 3 Steel Lance General

34 HP, 26 Attack, 96 Hit, 6 AS, 19 Def, 16 Avoid

Level 3 Light Bishop

30 HP, 16 Attack, 105 Hit, 9 AS, 6 Def, 25 Avoid

Level 19 Steel Sword Sword Knight

35 HP, 22 Attack, 101 Hit, 15 AS, 15 Def, 36 Avoid

Soldier: Rolf five-rounds at 100% hit, is three-rounded at 76% hit.

Halberdier: Rolf six-rounds at 99% hit, is three-rounded at 77% hit.

Archer: Rolf four-rounds at 95% hit, is three-rounded at 87% hit.

Wyvern Rider: Rolf four-rounds at 99% hit, is two-rounded at 76% hit.

Fighter: Rolf five-rounds at 96% hit, is two-rounded at 68% hit.

Warrior: Rolf six-rounds at 96% hit, is two-rounded at 68% hit.

Sage: Rolf three-rounds at 97% hit, is two-rounded at 79% hit.

General: Rolf can't kill at 100% hit, is two-rounded at 73% hit.

Bishop: Rolf three-rounds at 98% hit, is three-rounded at 85% hit.

Sword Knight: Rolf nine-rounds at 91% hit, is three-rounded at 80% hit.

His durability improved a little bit, but is still very bad, especially compared to the durability of your other characters. His offense still fails massively.

And this continues until the end of the game.

And that's all without even considering his inability to counter and his inability to attack from one space away. Seriously, he fails so much it isn't funny anymore.

[Leonri]

Level 13 at ch. 18? *sigh*.

He should be at least 20/2 by there. Every single character promotes in ch.17. Always.

And of course level 1 Rolf is going to fail to level 13 mage. That comparison is useless.

[Tino]

He should be at least 20/2 by there. Every single character promotes in ch.17. Always.

He gains experience only half the time, even less. And then you can add to that that he fails beyond comparison on offense, giving him only a minor amount of experience because he doesn't kill, except for some mooch kills, which would be favoritism, which is not considered valid in debates.

Rolf doesn't promote in chapter 17. He's one of the few who doesn't.

And of course level 1 Rolf is going to fail to level 13 mage. That comparison is useless.

In this case it's not level that matters, but performance. And he performs the worst out of all the characters you have at that point, and he continues to perform the worst out of all your characters for quite a while, if not the entire game.

[Leonri]

This debate is getting ...pointless. None of us are seeing eye to eye anywhere. Mostly because your arguements don't seem to carry much weight to me and probably vice versa.

Alas, you shall never have the joy of using archers.

[CGV]

yeah, the level 18 at chapter 18.... seriously? Like leonri said, everyone has promoted for me by then. Yes, even my Rolf. He's always at par with everyone else in my team (and he's an archer! ZOMG!)

[Leonri]

*Gasp*

To use the forbidden archers is to invoke the wrath of the FE gods! Surely the RNG must have smited you for your heretical actions? You must go out now and sacrifice your archer, to have any hope of appeasing them. In fact you should sacrifice all your non-paladin units, to truly be worthy of Titania Their divine grace!

[CGV]

^lawlz. A little over the top, but lawlz...

Edited September 19, 2008 by CGV

[Florete]

I must say, your comparisons aren't entirely fair. What if someone isn't using Titania or Jill and therefore supports Rolf with Mist? Or maybe they are, but Rolf and Mist is still available, no? You're also placing him at very low levels. He starts lower, so he'll grow faster. You can easily promote 7-10 people by the end of chapter 17.

And keeping him back a bit is not in any way preventing your team from advancing, it's strategy. There are front-liners, and there are back-ups. An crher will occasionally, in times where it's just a generally good idea, advance a bit to be able to retaliate on the enemy phase in a way that he/she can do it best.

[Swordsalmon]

Are you sending Rolf out to be attacked by four enemies? If you are, you better have a damn good game plan. Your archer should be far back enough so that only one enemy, if any, can reach him/her. Rolf has better speed, HP, and defense growths than Ilyana, and loses in luck just barely (Her 45 to his 40).

Looking at supports, Ilyana with Zihark or Lucia gets her +23 avoid and +2 defense, or with Mordecai for +3 defense. Zihark and Mordecai are the only ones possibly worth using, but those bonuses are damn good.

Rolf with Shinon or Tauroneo gets +15 avoid and +2 def, or with Mist to get +8 avoid and +2 def. Mist is the only one worth using, so Rolf's superior growths in those areas pretty much cancel things out against Ilyana. But, since Mist also is not a front-liner, it helps his case that he's very likely to be near her. Rolf and Mist also grows much faster than Ilyana and Zihark or Mordecai, especially Zihark. Note that I only mentioned terms of durability here, as that is what is in question.

His only real disadvantage is coming at a low level, but that's easily fixed and he can easily be up to par by level 5-8.

Exactly. You're using favouritism to make Rofl usable. You've proven why he's the worst thing since Wendy, congrats! Also, Ilyana has a pretty big level lead on Rofl forever and with her hax supports, Ilyana beats Rofl in literally every stat and performance. And just to show how phailtastic Rofl is compared to our lovely little Mage, I'll do a comparison when Rofl joins.

Ilyana, level 8 w/ Thunder

HP: 21

Atk: 13

Hit: 114%

Crt: lol

AS: 9

Def: 3

Res: 11

Avoid: 22%

Dodge: lol

Rofl, level 1 with Rofl's Bow

HP: 18

Atk: 13

Hit: 120%

Crt: lol

AS: 6

Def: 6

Res: 2

Avoid: 16

Dodge: lol

Rofl is epic phail.

Ilyana always is getting Mordecai A, Zihark B. +4 Defense and +10% Avoid, as well as +1 Attack. Who's Rofl benefitting. No one. Mist never wants Rofl ever, as Jill and Mordecai give much better bonuses. Heck, no one ever wants to hinder themselves with a Rofl support.

Shinon is awful, and Tauroneo comes far too late and still has better options.

Level lead, magic, staves, and hax supports>>>>>>>>>>Slightly superior fighting against fliers. And even then, Ilyana can use Elwind and beat Rofl there. -_-

Consider this; Rofl's "shining" moment is when fighting Raven's. At level 5-6 (If he's even that lucky), Rofl three-rounds your average Raven and is two-rounded by them. He's never good.

yeah, the level 18 at chapter 18.... seriously? Like leonri said, everyone has promoted for me by then. Yes, even my Rolf. He's always at par with everyone else in my team (and he's an archer! ZOMG!)

PEMN.

*Gasp*

To use the forbidden archers is to invoke the wrath of the FE gods! Surely the RNG must have smited you for your heretical actions? You must go out now and sacrifice your archer, to have any hope of appeasing them. In fact you should sacrifice all your non-paladin units, to truly be worthy of Titania Their divine grace!

I use Neimi and Klein regularly, even in ranked HM. I don't say their any good, however.

I must say, your comparisons aren't entirely fair. What if someone isn't using Titania or Jill and therefore supports Rolf with Mist? Or maybe they are, but Rolf and Mist is still available, no? You're also placing him at very low levels. He starts lower, so he'll grow faster. You can easily promote 7-10 people by the end of chapter 17.

And keeping him back a bit is not in any way preventing your team from advancing, it's strategy. There are front-liners, and there are back-ups. An crher will occasionally, in times where it's just a generally good idea, advance a bit to be able to retaliate on the enemy phase in a way that he/she can do it best.

Tino and I have proven why Titania>All, and Jill is another Top Tier. Not using them is always a detriment. And even then, Mist will want Mordecai and Boyd. Giving Mist a Rofl support weakens her, since Mist’s offense and defense will severely deteriorate without Jill and Mordecai. So replacing Jill and Titania with Rofl hurts not just the entire team, but the best healer.

You have to spend time creating a formation and weakening enemies for Rofl to kill. Besides reducing efficiency, it’s massive babying.

There’s seriously no reason to ever use an Archer in FE9. Their only ‘good’ point is attacking fliers, but too bad Mages do that, and with more damage against the common Wyvern Riders.

Honestly, it feels like I’m at FEE. Without you know, hilarious people like Backfire making every minute truly enjoyable.

[CGV]

Exactly. You're using favouritism to make Rofl usable. You've proven why he's the worst thing since Wendy, congrats! Also, Ilyana has a pretty big level lead on Rofl forever and with her hax supports, Ilyana beats Rofl in literally every stat and performance. And just to show how phailtastic Rofl is compared to our lovely little Mage, I'll do a comparison when Rofl joins.

Ilyana, level 8 w/ Thunder

HP: 21

Atk: 13

Hit: 114%

Crt: lol

AS: 9

Def: 3

Res: 11

Avoid: 22%

Dodge: lol

Rofl, level 1 with Rofl's Bow

HP: 18

Atk: 13

Hit: 120%

Crt: lol

AS: 6

Def: 6

Res: 2

Avoid: 16

Dodge: lol

Rofl is epic phail

how is rolf epic fail??? are you serious??? Rolf is 7 levels lower and he has 3 less hp, same attack, higher hit chance, 3 less speed (nothing that archer growths can't fix), 3 MORE defense (so much for Ilyana being more durable than Rolf) and 9 less resistance (which is reasonable because Ilyana is magic-tpye and Rolf is melee type)

Besides IIRC, Ilyana has two level ups already. So those stats aren't even her bases

So having the same atk, a higher hit chance, and 3 more defense than a unit that's 7 levels higher is fail? Plus, Rolf has a 20% higher speed growth rate, so speed will be on Rolf's side soon as well. Rolf also has a 15% higher Hp growth, so that one is good in a few levels. So basically, resistance is the only thing that Ilyana really pwns in over Rolf. Avoid is close, but not enough to be worried about

You're definition of fail = fail

You want proof of him failing epicly? Here you go.

CHAPTER 9

Level 1 Rolf's Bow Rolf

18 HP, 13 Attack, 120 Hit, 6 AS, 6 Def, 2 Res, 16 Avoid

Level 11 Steel Axe Fighter

34 HP, 22 Attack, 84 Hit, 4 AS, 8 Def, 11 Avoid

Level 10 Fire Mage

23 HP, 13 Attack, 111 Hit, 8 AS, 5 Def, 18 Avoid

Level 13 Steel Lance Knight

30 HP, 21 Attack, 87 Hit, 2 AS, 18 Def, 7 Avoid

Level 13 Iron Sword Myrmidon

26 HP, 15 Attack, 120 Hit, 13 AS, 7 Def, 30 Avoid

Level 11 Steel Lance Soldier

28 HP, 18 Attack, 90 Hit, 3 AS, 8 Def, 8 Avoid

Level 11 Steel Bow Archer

24 HP, 16 Attack, 99 Hit, 7 AS, 8 Def, 17 Avoid

Level 10 Venin Axe Bandit

34 HP, 15 Attack, 70 Hit, 7 AS, 6 Def, 16 Avoid

Note: hit = true hit rounded to the nearest whole number.

Fighter: Rolf seven-rounds at 100% hit, is two-rounded at 80% hit.

Mage: Rolf three-rounds at 100% hit, is two-rounded at 100% hit.

Knight: Rolf can't kill at 100% hit, is two-rounded at 83% hit.

Myrmidon: Rolf five-rounds at 98% hit, is one-rounded at 100% hit.

Soldier: Rolf six-rounds at 100% hit, is two-rounded at 87% hit.

Archer: Rolf five-rounds at 100% hit, is two-rounded at 94% hit.

Bandit: Rolf five-rounds at 100% hit, is two-rounded at 58% hit.

CHAPTER 13

Chapter 10 has no combat action, so Rolf will be level, say, 6.

Level 6 Steel Bow Rolf

21 HP, 16 Attack, 106 Hit, 7 AS, 8 Def, 3 Res, 20 Avoid

Level 15 Steel Sword Myrmidon

27 HP, 20 Attack, 107 Hit, 15 AS, 7 Def, 34 Avoid

Level 14 Steel Lance Soldier

31 HP, 20 Attack, 95 Hit, 7 AS, 9 Def, 17 Avoid

Level 3 Steel Lance Halberdier

37 HP, 22 Attack, 99 Hit, 11 AS, 12 Def, 25 Avoid

Level 16 Steel Bow Archer

27 HP, 19 Attack, 107 Hit, 12 AS, 10 Def, 28 Avoid

Level 13 Steel Axe Fighter

35 HP, 23 Attack, 86 Hit, 5 AS, 8 Def, 13 Avoid

Level 13 Thunder Mage

24 HP, 15 Attack, 103 Hit, 9 AS, 6 Def, 20 Avoid

Level 4 Beak Raven

30 HP, 18 Attack, 115 Hit, 15 AS, 11 Def, 31 Avoid

Myrmidon: Rolf three-rounds at 85% hit, is one-rounded at 97% hit.

Soldier: Rolf five-rounds at 98% hit, is two-rounded at 88% hit.

Halberdier: Rolf ten-rounds at 93% hit, is one-rounded at 91% hit.

Archer: Rolf five-rounds at 91% hit, is one-rounded at 97% hit.

Fighter: Rolf five-rounds at 99% hit, is two-rounded at 77% hit.

Mage: Rolf three-rounds at 96% hit, is two-rounded at 94% hit.

Raven: Rolf two-rounds at 88% hit, is two-rounded at 100% hit.

Lol. He fails even more than in chapter 9. I was wrong. Apparently he doesn't fail. He fails really hard.

CHAPTER 18

Rolf will be level 13. Yes, he levels that slowly.

Level 13 Steel Bow Rolf

25 HP, 19 Attack, 115 Hit, 12 AS, 10 Def, 5 Res, 33 Avoid

Level 18 Steel Lance Soldier

34 HP, 21 Attack, 98 Hit, 10 AS, 11 Def, 24 Avoid

Level 3 Steel Lance Halberdier

37 HP, 22 Attack, 99 Hit, 11 AS, 12 Def, 25 Avoid

Level 19 Steel Bow Archer

30 HP, 19 Attack, 107 Hit, 13 AS, 11 Def, 31 Avoid

Level 18 Steel Lance Wyvern Rider

35 HP, 26 Attack, 98 Hit, 9 AS, 17 Def, 22 Avoid

Level 20 Steel Axe Fighter

40 HP, 26 Attack, 93 Hit, 12 AS, 11 Def, 29 Avoid

Level 3 Steel Axe Warrior

44 HP, 27 Attack, 93 Hit, 12 AS, 11 Def, 29 Avoid

Level 3 Elthunder Sage

29 HP, 20 Attack, 100 Hit, 12 AS, 9 Def, 27 Avoid

Level 3 Steel Lance General

34 HP, 26 Attack, 96 Hit, 6 AS, 19 Def, 16 Avoid

Level 3 Light Bishop

30 HP, 16 Attack, 105 Hit, 9 AS, 6 Def, 25 Avoid

Level 19 Steel Sword Sword Knight

35 HP, 22 Attack, 101 Hit, 15 AS, 15 Def, 36 Avoid

Soldier: Rolf five-rounds at 100% hit, is three-rounded at 76% hit.

Halberdier: Rolf six-rounds at 99% hit, is three-rounded at 77% hit.

Archer: Rolf four-rounds at 95% hit, is three-rounded at 87% hit.

Wyvern Rider: Rolf four-rounds at 99% hit, is two-rounded at 76% hit.

Fighter: Rolf five-rounds at 96% hit, is two-rounded at 68% hit.

Warrior: Rolf six-rounds at 96% hit, is two-rounded at 68% hit.

Sage: Rolf three-rounds at 97% hit, is two-rounded at 79% hit.

General: Rolf can't kill at 100% hit, is two-rounded at 73% hit.

Bishop: Rolf three-rounds at 98% hit, is three-rounded at 85% hit.

Sword Knight: Rolf nine-rounds at 91% hit, is three-rounded at 80% hit.

I thought personal experience means nothing...

Edited September 20, 2008 by CGV

[Florete]

Exactly. You're using favouritism to make Rofl usable. You've proven why he's the worst thing since Wendy, congrats! Also, Ilyana has a pretty big level lead on Rofl forever and with her hax supports, Ilyana beats Rofl in literally every stat and performance. And just to show how phailtastic Rofl is compared to our lovely little Mage, I'll do a comparison when Rofl joins.

Ilyana, level 8 w/ Thunder

HP: 21

Atk: 13

Hit: 114%

Crt: lol

AS: 9

Def: 3

Res: 11

Avoid: 22%

Dodge: lol

Rofl, level 1 with Rofl's Bow

HP: 18

Atk: 13

Hit: 120%

Crt: lol

AS: 6

Def: 6

Res: 2

Avoid: 16

Dodge: lol

Rofl is epic phail.

Ilyana always is getting Mordecai A, Zihark B. +4 Defense and +10% Avoid, as well as +1 Attack. Who's Rofl benefitting. No one. Mist never wants Rofl ever, as Jill and Mordecai give much better bonuses. Heck, no one ever wants to hinder themselves with a Rofl support.

Shinon is awful, and Tauroneo comes far too late and still has better options.

Level lead, magic, staves, and hax supports>>>>>>>>>>Slightly superior fighting against fliers. And even then, Ilyana can use Elwind and beat Rofl there. -_-

Consider this; Rofl's "shining" moment is when fighting Raven's. At level 5-6 (If he's even that lucky), Rofl three-rounds your average Raven and is two-rounded by them. He's never good.

Tino and I have proven why Titania>All, and Jill is another Top Tier. Not using them is always a detriment. And even then, Mist will want Mordecai and Boyd. Giving Mist a Rofl support weakens her, since Mist’s offense and defense will severely deteriorate without Jill and Mordecai. So replacing Jill and Titania with Rofl hurts not just the entire team, but the best healer.

You have to spend time creating a formation and weakening enemies for Rofl to kill. Besides reducing efficiency, it’s massive babying.

There’s seriously no reason to ever use an Archer in FE9. Their only ‘good’ point is attacking fliers, but too bad Mages do that, and with more damage against the common Wyvern Riders.

Honestly, it feels like I’m at FEE. Without you know, hilarious people like Backfire making every minute truly enjoyable.

God dammit, stop calling him Rofl, it's so fucking annoying and completely irrelevant. You can't say these people "don't want" someone to support, because these supports are there and you can go whichever way you want to, so supporting Mist with Rolf is completely rational. Plus, Mist's primary use is to heal, not to fight, and she does a good enough job at it that supporting Rolf won't hurt her at all. And you don't have to "spend time creating a formation and weakening enemies for Rolf to kill." It's easy to raise him up, try it some time. Feed him some kills, some BEXP, you do it with Tormod, don't you? "Babying" a unit like Rolf isn't hard in the least, and if that's your only argument, I'm done here, because that's just stupid. He comes early enough to be raised efficiently. And you don't even have to use BEXP, though why wouldn't you if you're getting the max amount and he takes hardly any until he's amazing?

You haven't proven a damned thing, only spouted joining conditions at me. Overall performance is what really matters, and Rolf is great just a few chapters after you get him until the end of the game.

Shinon is awful, and Tauroneo comes far too late.

I pretty much stated that in shorter context.

[Tino]

how is rolf epic fail??? are you serious??? Rolf is 7 levels lower and he has 3 less hp, same attack, higher hit chance, 3 less speed (nothing that archer growths can't fix), 3 MORE defense (so much for Ilyana being more durable than Rolf) and 9 less resistance (which is reasonable because Ilyana is magic-tpye and Rolf is melee type)

Like I said, it's not level that matters, but performance, and Rolf performs epicly bad, especially when he joines.

Besides IIRC, Ilyana has two level ups already. So those stats aren't even her bases

So having the same atk, a higher hit chance, and 3 more defense than a unit that's 7 levels higher is fail? Plus, Rolf has a 20% higher speed growth rate, so speed will be on Rolf's side soon as well. Rolf also has a 15% higher Hp growth, so that one is good in a few levels. So basically, resistance is the only thing that Ilyana really pwns in over Rolf. Avoid is close, but not enough to be worried about

You're definition of fail = fail

Ilyana hits Resistance, of which enemies have less. More Hit and more Defense and a hell lot more Resistance is always a positive, never a negativ. It gives her better offense and durability, no matter what level Rolf is, because it's performance that matters.

Rolf fails, get over it.

I thought personal experience means nothing...

It's not personal experience. I used Rolf's average stats and then put him up against the enemies in the chapters I mentioned, and I didn't think up those stats. No, those are the stats enemies actually have.

God dammit, stop calling him Rofl, it's so fucking annoying and completely irrelevant. You can't say these people "don't want" someone to support, because these supports are there and you can go whichever way you want to, so supporting Mist with Rolf is completely rational. Plus, Mist's primary use is to heal, not to fight, and she does a good enough job at it that supporting Rolf won't hurt her at all. And you don't have to "spend time creating a formation and weakening enemies for Rolf to kill." It's easy to raise him up, try it some time. Feed him some kills, some BEXP, you do it with Tormod, don't you? "Babying" a unit like Rolf isn't hard in the least, and if that's your only argument, I'm done here, because that's just stupid. He comes early enough to be raised efficiently. And you don't even have to use BEXP, though why wouldn't you if you're getting the max amount and he takes hardly any until he's amazing?

1) I must agree. It is getting a little bit annoying... :(

2) Supports are there, yes, and you obviously want to get the maximum out of them. How about we take a look at Mist's supports?

Titania

Titania is a great character. We already know that by now. She gets Rhys no matter what (it's her fastest support) and on top of that she gets a B support with either Ike or Boyd, but most likely Boyd.

Boyd

Boyd is another great character, but his Mist support is very slow. Also, he would rather support somebody he's guaranteed to be with, namely Brom. And he already has B Titania, so there's no more room for Mist.

Mordecai

Great character and great support. It gives Mist full Defense and full Attack, which is obviously great, because it will give her a decent offense upon promotion. B support.

Jill

The third best character in the game. Not using her is a detriment to the team, and Mist is Jill's best support. A support.

Rolf

First of all, there's no more room. Mist prefers all the above characters as support partners over Rolf, simply because they're better and easier to keep up with after promotion. Then there's also the fact that Rolf is the worst character in the game, and Titania, Boyd, Mordecai and Jill are all God Tier or High Tier and are therefore going to be played. No Mist support for Rolf.

3) "Feed him some kills"

There you have it: favoritism. This is yet another thing that's considered invalid. Everybody gets the same amount of BEXP. And yes, Tormod also gains some of it, but in debates, we don't give him mooch kills. But Tormod, unlike Rolf, actually can kill enemies with his magic.

4) Seriously, with the statistics I have given you I have proven that he can't be raised efficiently, so unless you can counter that, we agree that Rolf indeed can't be raised efficiently. You can't counter raw facts with personal experience. FACT

You haven't proven a damned thing, only spouted joining conditions at me. Overall performance is what really matters, and Rolf is great just a few chapters after you get him until the end of the game.

Look at how he fares against enemies in the statistics I have given you, kthnxbai.

But if you somehow missed them...

CHAPTER 9

Level 1 Rolf's Bow Rolf

18 HP, 13 Attack, 120 Hit, 6 AS, 6 Def, 2 Res, 16 Avoid

Level 11 Steel Axe Fighter

34 HP, 22 Attack, 84 Hit, 4 AS, 8 Def, 11 Avoid

Level 10 Fire Mage

23 HP, 13 Attack, 111 Hit, 8 AS, 5 Def, 18 Avoid

Level 13 Steel Lance Knight

30 HP, 21 Attack, 87 Hit, 2 AS, 18 Def, 7 Avoid

Level 13 Iron Sword Myrmidon

26 HP, 15 Attack, 120 Hit, 13 AS, 7 Def, 30 Avoid

Level 11 Steel Lance Soldier

28 HP, 18 Attack, 90 Hit, 3 AS, 8 Def, 8 Avoid

Level 11 Steel Bow Archer

24 HP, 16 Attack, 99 Hit, 7 AS, 8 Def, 17 Avoid

Level 10 Venin Axe Bandit

34 HP, 15 Attack, 70 Hit, 7 AS, 6 Def, 16 Avoid

Note: hit = true hit rounded to the nearest whole number.

Fighter: Rolf seven-rounds at 100% hit, is two-rounded at 80% hit.

Mage: Rolf three-rounds at 100% hit, is two-rounded at 100% hit.

Knight: Rolf can't kill at 100% hit, is two-rounded at 83% hit.

Myrmidon: Rolf five-rounds at 98% hit, is one-rounded at 100% hit.

Soldier: Rolf six-rounds at 100% hit, is two-rounded at 87% hit.

Archer: Rolf five-rounds at 100% hit, is two-rounded at 94% hit.

Bandit: Rolf five-rounds at 100% hit, is two-rounded at 58% hit.

The only enemy against which he stands a small chance of surviving is the Bandit, but if he goes for the bandits, he gets killed by the other enemies. The best he can do is three-round a mage, but he gets countered and one more attack will kill him. He can't even damage knights. He is two-rounded by everything and even one-rounded by myrmidons. He fails in this chapter. He can't survive, he can't kill.

CHAPTER 13

Chapter 10 has no combat action, so Rolf will be level, say, 6.

Level 6 Steel Bow Rolf

21 HP, 16 Attack, 106 Hit, 7 AS, 8 Def, 3 Res, 20 Avoid

Level 15 Steel Sword Myrmidon

27 HP, 20 Attack, 107 Hit, 15 AS, 7 Def, 34 Avoid

Level 14 Steel Lance Soldier

31 HP, 20 Attack, 95 Hit, 7 AS, 9 Def, 17 Avoid

Level 3 Steel Lance Halberdier

37 HP, 22 Attack, 99 Hit, 11 AS, 12 Def, 25 Avoid

Level 16 Steel Bow Archer

27 HP, 19 Attack, 107 Hit, 12 AS, 10 Def, 28 Avoid

Level 13 Steel Axe Fighter

35 HP, 23 Attack, 86 Hit, 5 AS, 8 Def, 13 Avoid

Level 13 Thunder Mage

24 HP, 15 Attack, 103 Hit, 9 AS, 6 Def, 20 Avoid

Level 4 Beak Raven

30 HP, 18 Attack, 115 Hit, 15 AS, 11 Def, 31 Avoid

Myrmidon: Rolf three-rounds at 85% hit, is one-rounded at 97% hit.

Soldier: Rolf five-rounds at 98% hit, is two-rounded at 88% hit.

Halberdier: Rolf ten-rounds at 93% hit, is one-rounded at 91% hit.

Archer: Rolf five-rounds at 91% hit, is one-rounded at 97% hit.

Fighter: Rolf five-rounds at 99% hit, is two-rounded at 77% hit.

Mage: Rolf three-rounds at 96% hit, is two-rounded at 94% hit.

Raven: Rolf two-rounds at 88% hit, is two-rounded at 100% hit.

Lol. He fails even more than in chapter 9. I was wrong. Apparently he doesn't fail. He fails really hard.

CHAPTER 18

Rolf will be level 13. Yes, he levels that slowly.

Level 13 Steel Bow Rolf

25 HP, 19 Attack, 115 Hit, 12 AS, 10 Def, 5 Res, 33 Avoid

Level 18 Steel Lance Soldier

34 HP, 21 Attack, 98 Hit, 10 AS, 11 Def, 24 Avoid

Level 3 Steel Lance Halberdier

37 HP, 22 Attack, 99 Hit, 11 AS, 12 Def, 25 Avoid

Level 19 Steel Bow Archer

30 HP, 19 Attack, 107 Hit, 13 AS, 11 Def, 31 Avoid

Level 18 Steel Lance Wyvern Rider

35 HP, 26 Attack, 98 Hit, 9 AS, 17 Def, 22 Avoid

Level 20 Steel Axe Fighter

40 HP, 26 Attack, 93 Hit, 12 AS, 11 Def, 29 Avoid

Level 3 Steel Axe Warrior

44 HP, 27 Attack, 93 Hit, 12 AS, 11 Def, 29 Avoid

Level 3 Elthunder Sage

29 HP, 20 Attack, 100 Hit, 12 AS, 9 Def, 27 Avoid

Level 3 Steel Lance General

34 HP, 26 Attack, 96 Hit, 6 AS, 19 Def, 16 Avoid

Level 3 Light Bishop

30 HP, 16 Attack, 105 Hit, 9 AS, 6 Def, 25 Avoid

Level 19 Steel Sword Sword Knight

35 HP, 22 Attack, 101 Hit, 15 AS, 15 Def, 36 Avoid

Soldier: Rolf five-rounds at 100% hit, is three-rounded at 76% hit.

Halberdier: Rolf six-rounds at 99% hit, is three-rounded at 77% hit.

Archer: Rolf four-rounds at 95% hit, is three-rounded at 87% hit.

Wyvern Rider: Rolf four-rounds at 99% hit, is two-rounded at 76% hit.

Fighter: Rolf five-rounds at 96% hit, is two-rounded at 68% hit.

Warrior: Rolf six-rounds at 96% hit, is two-rounded at 68% hit.

Sage: Rolf three-rounds at 97% hit, is two-rounded at 79% hit.

General: Rolf can't kill at 100% hit, is two-rounded at 73% hit.

Bishop: Rolf three-rounds at 98% hit, is three-rounded at 85% hit.

Sword Knight: Rolf nine-rounds at 91% hit, is three-rounded at 80% hit.

His durability improved a little bit, but is still very bad, especially compared to the durability of your other characters. His offense still fails massively.

And this continues until the end of the game.

And that's all without even considering his inability to counter and his inability to attack from one space away. Seriously, he fails so much it isn't funny anymore.

There you go. Try to counter that. And don't come with the "omg he's only 13 at 18" because I've heard that now. Come with some actual facts.

Edited September 20, 2008 by Tino

[Florete]

2) Supports are there, yes, and you obviously want to get the maximum out of them. How about we take a look at Mist's supports?

Titania

Titania is a great character. We already know that by now. She gets Rhys no matter what (it's her fastest support) and on top of that she gets a B support with either Ike or Boyd, but most likely Boyd.

Boyd

Boyd is another great character, but his Mist support is very slow. Also, he would rather support somebody he's guaranteed to be with, namely Brom. And he already has B Titania, so there's no more room for Mist.

Mordecai

Great character and great support. It gives Mist full Defense and full Attack, which is obviously great, because it will give her a decent offense upon promotion. B support.

Jill

The third best character in the game. Not using her is a detriment to the team, and Mist is Jill's best support. A support.

Rolf

First of all, there's no more room. Mist prefers all the above characters as support partners over Rolf, simply because they're better and easier to keep up with after promotion. Then there's also the fact that Rolf is the worst character in the game, and Titania, Boyd, Mordecai and Jill are all God Tier or High Tier and are therefore going to be played. No Mist support for Rolf.

Mordecai has much higher move than an unpromoted Mist and is not likely to be near her at all. Same with Jill. And the bolded part: Don't even go to the fact/tier list thing. Your opinion isn't fact. No one's is.

Just because someone is high tier doesn't mean they will be played, so how can you just assume everyone is using them? I agree those are all good characters, but you don't have to use them. You could just not use them and be fine. The only one you should assume everyone is using is Ike, as you actually have to. Like my current run: With the team I planned, it was only Ike until I got Marcia and Mist. Now, don't go all PEMN ape-shit on my ass, it's just an example. For the record, Jill and Mordy aren't planned for this run either.

3) "Feed him some kills"

There you have it: favoritism. This is yet another thing that's considered invalid. Everybody gets the same amount of BEXP. And yes, Tormod also gains some of it, but in debates, we don't give him mooch kills. But Tormod, unlike Rolf, actually can kill enemies with his magic.

I don't know where you're finding all these exact enemy stats, but I can assure you Tormod isn't killing a damn thing when you get him without favoritism, except maybe a few soldiers. If you only ever used the characters that never needed a single mooch kill, you'd have a small team, and you'd possibly get raped come endgame as a result of using too many pre-promotes.

4) Seriously, with the statistics I have given you I have proven that he can't be raised efficiently, so unless you can counter that, we agree that Rolf indeed can't be raised efficiently. You can't counter raw facts with personal experience. FACT

Look at how he fares against enemies in the statistics I have given you, kthnxbai.

But if you somehow missed them...

There you go. Try to counter that. And don't come with the "omg he's only 13 at 18" because I've heard that now. Come with some actual facts.

I can't counter facts with personal experience, you're right. Was I doing that? I don't recall doing that. Also, every allied unit won't be given an exact fair share of kills, that's a bad idea in general, so I don't care what level you're placing him at.

You haven't proven a thing to me, once again. I know you think I'm just an idiot with a thick skull at this point, but you showing me enemy stats and a low leveled Rolf won't convince me he's bad, I've seen him be good too many times. Yeah, PEMN, whatever, but are you going to call a unit that you've seen be awesome every time you used him bad because someone said he's bad? I don't think so.