Titania is the best in the game.

[Tino]

Dude, half your units won't be seeing action on any given enemy phase, unless you're retarded and like to restart maps a whole lot.

Archers see no action on the enemy phase at all, making them a liability on the field.

I can't believe you're being serious right now because everything you've said is completely and totally ridiculous, Tino. You've gotta be pulling our legs.

I am being serious.

[Tino]

I don't seem to get that my archers actually have never been staple units in my teams? Rebecca wasn't pretty much the reason I S-ranked FE7? Rolf actually wasn't good for me multiple times? And why, because they're archers? That's total bullshit.

Now actually counter my points.

- Snipers see no action at all on the enemy phase. Never.

- Snipers see no direct combat, which is fail.

EDIT: Crap >_> Double post.

Edited September 17, 2008 by Tino

[Ϲharlie]

Huh, that's funny. I'm currently playing Thracia 776, and both Tanya and Ronan (yes, I used Ronan, get over it) see a fair amount of action during the enemy phase. In fact, last chapter, I used Tanya to lure out Misha so Karin could speak with her. Not only did Tanya lure out Misha, but she also killed off quite a few of Misha's pegasus knights when they went to attack her with their javelins. Tanya was not attacked directly once (except by Misha, which was the entire point of the strategy).

[sandmanccl]

The only people on my teams that see action on enemy phases are knights/generals and the occasional cavalier.

Ever.

I'm sorry you are too feeble-minded to understand the concept of ranged units.

Archers are frequently some of my most used units. Because of them, I take 0 damage. And not because I'm lucky, but because there's no chance whatsoever for my guys to take damage. No amount of your bullshit can convince me that my way of playing isn't good strategy, just because LOL THEY CAN'T FIGHT ON ENEMY TURN LAWL

[Tino]

Huh, that's funny. I'm currently playing Thracia 776, and both Tanya and Ronan (yes, I used Ronan, get over it) see a fair amount of action during the enemy phase. In fact, last chapter, I used Tanya to lure out Misha so Karin could speak with her. Not only did Tanya lure out Misha, but she also killed off quite a few of Misha's pegasus knights when they went to attack her with their javelins. Tanya was not attacked directly once (except by Misha, which was the entire point of the strategy).

Y'know, that means you send one character, an archer, in front of the whole pack of your units, which is not very strategic at all.

Archers are frequently some of my most used units. Because of them, I take 0 damage. And not because I'm lucky, but because there's no chance whatsoever for my guys to take damage. No amount of your bullshit can convince me that my way of playing isn't good strategy, just because LOL THEY CAN'T FIGHT ON ENEMY TURN LAWL

You can use magic and long-range weapons for this. You take no damage and can still fight on the enemy phase.

Edited September 17, 2008 by Tino

[Liz]

The only people on my teams that see action on enemy phases are knights/generals and the occasional cavalier.

Ever.

I'm sorry you are too feeble-minded to understand the concept of ranged units.

Archers are frequently some of my most used units. Because of them, I take 0 damage. And not because I'm lucky, but because there's no chance whatsoever for my guys to take damage. No amount of your bullshit can convince me that my way of playing isn't good strategy, just because LOL THEY CAN'T FIGHT ON ENEMY TURN LAWL

to this add that you can use longbows for a zero chance of being damaged and ballistas.

[Tino]

to this add that you can use longbows for a zero chance of being damaged and ballistas.

Longbows are too weak and there are too few of them to make a considerable difference.

You can't use ballistae to your advantage, because they're always aimed at where you started, and that's not where the enemies are when you get to the ballistae :)

[sandmanccl]

You just took an example of where someone used an archer strategically, and then decided it wasn't strategic despite the fact it worked very efficiently.

The reason I'm being such a dick towards you is because you're not using logic and claiming you are the one who is most logical.

I'm done with this because if I wanted to talk to a wall, I'd talk to the naked Jenna Jamison poster in my room while masturbating furiously. At least I'd get something out of that.

[Liz]

Y'know, that means you send one character, an archer, in front of the whole pack of your units, which is not very strategic at all.

i do it all the time. its a great way to attract enemies without damaging them for weaker units to kill.

[Swordsalmon]

i do it all the time. its a great way to attract enemies without damaging them for weaker units to kill.

That restricts effiency when you can use another character to just weaken/kill all the enemies for the other characters to kill.

[Tino]

You just took an example of where someone used an archer strategically, and then decided it wasn't strategic despite the fact it worked very efficiently.

Yes, sure, being lucky enough that you're not getting attacked directly and aren't killed when you are attacked by those enemies is very smart. It was luck. That's all.

The reason I'm being such a dick towards you is because you're not using logic and claiming you are the one who is most logical.

I don't claim to be the most logical, I'm defending my point, which is something you people don't. You all say "but I did this" and "and his stats were great" and all that crap, but seriously, personal experience means nothing.

[Liz]

That restricts effiency when you can use another character to just weaken/kill all the enemies for the other characters to kill.

oh, i forgot that you assume that all everbody's units are massively low leveled because you aboose of the Jeigan unit.

[Tino]

oh, i forgot that you assume that all everbody's units are massively low leveled because you aboose of the Jeigan unit.

We never asume that. Where'd you get that from?

[Liz]

We never asume that. Where'd you get that from?

are you kidding me?

[Tino]

are you kidding me?

No, but answer the question. Where'd you get it from?

[Liz]

No, but answer the question. Where'd you get it from?

from everything that you have posted this whole thread.

"Your other units won't catch up to Titania until chapter 18, at least"

ring any bells?

[Tino]

from everything that you have posted this whole thread.

"Your other units won't catch up to Titania until chapter 18, at least"

ring any bells?

And does that have anything to do with abuse? Exactly, it has not.

[Swordsalmon]

Because even with optimal experience gain, no one but possibly Oscar is promoting until Chapter 18 or so.

[Leonri]

Archers are extremely useful. Not being able to counter-attack in melee is not that big of an issue, especially since so many enemies use long-range weapons which an be counter-attacked. In fact, many times archers can conter when no-one else can. Also they have epic avoid and , in the case of Rolf, huge defence.

Even better they have no risk of damage from enemy counters when against a melee weapon. In fact this makes them extremely handy, especially against bosses/dragons. Wary of a boss with a killer axe? Send in the archer to weaken him safely and easily. That dragon doing to much damage to risk your paladin? Send in the sniper with a laguz bow.

When promoted, Snipers are like ranged swordmasters, with wild crit rates. They have very powerful weapons and longbows/double bows are epic. These are expensive but, in most FE9 money means nothing and in most games it's pretty common.

[Swordsalmon]

Archers are extremely useful. Not being able to counter-attack in melee is not that big of an issue, especially since so many enemies use long-range weapons which an be counter-attacked. In fact, many times archers can conter when no-one else can. Also they have epic avoid and , in the case of Rolf, huge defence.

Even better they have no risk of damage from enemy counters when against a melee weapon. In fact this makes them extremely handy, especially against bosses/dragons. Wary of a boss with a killer axe? Send in the archer to weaken him safely and easily. That dragon doing to much damage to risk your paladin? Send in the sniper with a laguz bow.

When promoted, Snipers are like ranged swordmasters, with wild crit rates. They have very powerful weapons and longbows/double bows are epic. These are expensive but, in most FE9 money means nothing and in most games it's pretty common.

It's a huge issue. Melee units will target the Archer, reducing efficiency massively. Using an Archer hugely reduces offense.

Until the enemy phase, then they all are the worst character.

[sandmanccl]

Yes, sure, being lucky enough that you're not getting attacked directly and aren't killed when you are attacked by those enemies is very smart. It was luck. That's all.

They have similar defensive properties to Swordmasters. This person put that archer up there knowing full well that it'd get under attack and probably survive the day. It worked. That means it was a good strategy.

I don't claim to be the most logical, I'm defending my point, which is something you people don't. You all say "but I did this" and "and his stats were great" and all that crap, but seriously, personal experience means nothing.

I haven't mentioned stats yet, but do you want me to? Because I could and blow everything your saying out your ass. A lot of the archer units tend to have pretty rockin' stats. Rolf in FE9 is pretty good at everything (his strength is just about average, his speed is great, his HP is great, his defense is great for someone that's not in danger's way most the time.) In FE10, Rolf is THE MOST POWERFUL CHARACTER IN THE GAME. He has a better strength growth than HAAR, ffs. Let's not factor out the fact the Double Bow is one of the best weapons in the entire series (in both games). If you can't make good use of archers you are a strategy game failure. Go find another genre.

Personal experience means everything, because if you beat the game, you beat the game. Correct me if I wrong, but beating the game is the ultimate goal of a single player experience, right? There's no point system like there is in old-school Arcade-type NES games, so you can't compare how well you beat the game to how well someone else beat the game. If you made good use of a unit, then it's a good unit. You win, you win.

It's not my fault you don't understand the strategic value of creating block points with your slow, heavy guys with high defense and having an archer or a mage back them up. Archers do extreme damage to flying units which is handy in most FE games because Pegasus Knights are fairly common enemies every so often. Mages do a lot of damage to everything but die in two hits or so (meaning your whole BUT HE CAN COUNTER ATTACK!!!11!!!11 argument is pretty null because you're not going to put a mage into the range of an enemy unless it's another caster so you're resistance will save the day, because mages with good speed and luck growths so they can reliably dodge are uncommon the series wide). Archers tend to have better defense so they can at least survive getting hit (which they really shouldn't be in the first place.)

If you want to beat FE9 without having any unit that's EVER a liability, you'd just use Titania and Ike. What's the point of replaying the game if you're just going to use the "best guys" every time?

[CGV]

There's no way anyone but Titania, and possibly Mordecai and Stefan, are getting to 20/20. 20/15 is the average end-game, so that's what is used

average end-game for hard mode i'm assuming?

This is about Titania, not Rolf. And, news flash, people do use him. People who know how to use snipers use him.

Like me!

lol!

let me laugh at this comment and sarcastic remarks about it.

how can this statement even be accurate? do you think its fair to have Titania reach 20 and everyone else stuck at ~15, when you could have almost your whole endgame team at 20?

not only has nightmare said this, but also Wasure, and even me!

oh! and by the way, just because people don't agree with your opinions doesn't mean that everyone is playing easy mode.

toodles!

oh, and about the Rolf thing. I have raised him several times, and he has yet to disappoint me. He is an amazing unit. Or are you going to tell me to use Shinon to get max BEXP?

+50 kick ass points for Bianchi whatever your name is now!

And for the PEMN, you must be playing fixed mode. I've never played fixed mode, but I'm assuming it means that everyone's stats are fixed to hit a certain point. Assuming that's correct (correct me if I'm wrong) obviously PEMN because all the units will end up the same or aound the same every time. Random mode is a completely different story where you don't base units off facts, averages and percentages, but how they turn out every game and averaging out good they do the more times you play it. That's why I use Mia more and Zihark less. I like em both, but Mia seems to do better for me. I can't say that if PEMN, I'd just be a damn robot everytime I played...

[sandmanccl]

You guys even got me agreeing with CGV now.

If Hell freezing over isn't proof enough that you're talking out your asses, then nothing will be.

[Kintenbo]

You guys even got me agreeing with CGV now.

If Hell freezing over isn't proof enough that you're talking out your asses, then nothing will be.

How can you talk out of your butt, it doesn't have vocal cords...

On a more serious note, Tino and Salmon are right about it not being likely that most of your folk will make it to all out 20. Unless you focus on one or only a few people, that will likely not happen. You folks are arguing that using Titania means no experience, but how does focusing on just a few people make things any better? Equal distribution is usually the way to go. That's what Tino and Salmon are referring to, the assumption everyone gets a fair share of kills. Sure, you probably won't use your experience on folks like Lucia or Bastian, but all characters must be a team player. Assuming everyone gets their fair share, only the folks Tino and Salmon mentioned will make it to 20/20.

[Tino]

I haven't mentioned stats yet, but do you want me to? Because I could and blow everything your saying out your ass. A lot of the archer units tend to have pretty rockin' stats. Rolf in FE9 is pretty good at everything (his strength is just about average, his speed is great, his HP is great, his defense is great for someone that's not in danger's way most the time.) In FE10, Rolf is THE MOST POWERFUL CHARACTER IN THE GAME. He has a better strength growth than HAAR, ffs. Let's not factor out the fact the Double Bow is one of the best weapons in the entire series (in both games). If you can't make good use of archers you are a strategy game failure. Go find another genre.

It doesn't change a single thing. Archers can't do anything on the enemy phase and that's it. Hell, an archer could have 100 in every single stat. So what? It doesn't change the fact that he's useless on the enemy phase, which is my point. You have never heard me talk about stats. I never said their stats sucked.

Personal experience means everything, because if you beat the game, you beat the game. Correct me if I wrong, but beating the game is the ultimate goal of a single player experience, right? There's no point system like there is in old-school Arcade-type NES games, so you can't compare how well you beat the game to how well someone else beat the game. If you made good use of a unit, then it's a good unit. You win, you win.

Personal experience means nothing.

A unit can be good one run and on another run that unit can suck. This is why we use averages to determine the stats of a unit on each level during every chapter. Then we add all other things such as supports and joining conditions and this way we can determine the overall usefulness of the unit. Then we compare this overall usefulness to that of a different character. Those are the basic debating standards, don't tell me you don't know that.

It's not my fault you don't understand the strategic value of creating block points with your slow, heavy guys with high defense and having an archer or a mage back them up. Archers do extreme damage to flying units which is handy in most FE games because Pegasus Knights are fairly common enemies every so often. Mages do a lot of damage to everything but die in two hits or so (meaning your whole BUT HE CAN COUNTER ATTACK!!!11!!!11 argument is pretty null because you're not going to put a mage into the range of an enemy unless it's another caster so you're resistance will save the day, because mages with good speed and luck growths so they can reliably dodge are uncommon the series wide). Archers tend to have better defense so they can at least survive getting hit (which they really shouldn't be in the first place.)

There you have it. Mages are much, much more effective than archers because they hit resistance and they can attack both directly and indirectly.

Wyverns are much more common than Pegasus Knights, and they tend to have good HP and Defense. This is why using Wind-type tomes and the Wind Sword against them is much better than using an archer. Close range, long range, effective bonus, light weight. Perfect for killing a Wyvern who barely has any Resistance.

Mages don't die in two hits. The only mages that are worth using are Ilyana and Tormod and perhaps Soren. Ilyana gains awesome Defense supports giving her good durability. Plus, mages also have the schmexy utility of being able to heal on top of their ability to attack with three different types of magic. Mages can heal, attack from both close and long range (and even from 3~10 range if they want) and can actually do something on the enemy phase. Archers can only attack 50% of the time (to be generous) and have no short-range option. Mages are much, much more effective than archers.

If you want to beat FE9 without having any unit that's EVER a liability, you'd just use Titania and Ike. What's the point of replaying the game if you're just going to use the "best guys" every time?

You're seeing it from the wrong side. We're debating which characters can be used to beat the game as efficiently as possible, with max BEXP. It's not that we always use the characters who turn out to be the most useful. Debating is more of a hobby than something that tells you "those characters are the best so I must use them and nobody else".

average end-game for hard mode i'm assuming?

Yes.

If Hell freezing over isn't proof enough that you're talking out your asses, then nothing will be.

We're not talking "out of our asses". We're stating our opinions, defend them using actual facts, and when we counter your arguments you simply say we talk "out of our asses". That's a really bad way to try and win a debate. A really bad way.