Supports

[Magical Glace]

You might like FE4's lover system then. Though conversations do increase lover points, Lover points are mostly independent of characterization. What's more, there's no activation necessary!

[Ryo]

I haven't played every game with support so I can't objectively comment on which system was the best.

I think how Awakening's support was handled is alright for most parts, though I still have some issues with a few things. I think these are what they need to change:

Dual Strike needs to be re-balanced (by lowering DS rate, or limiting the damage the second unit can deal... etc.), because while it doesn't make much difference early-game, you can reach up to 70+% DS rate with S-rank in later chapters even without grinding. However, enemies' stats must also be adjusted accordingly to make sure that such a change won't become a major hindrance in beating the chapters (i.e don't make them annoyingly tanky or have sky-high HP). Alternatively, keep the Dual system the way it was in FE13, but allow enemies to support, pair up, and engage in dual battles, though this is just wishful thinking on my part. The stat-boosts and bonuses, on the other hand, are fine and aren't exactly broken.

Better support conversations, even if that means less supports in terms of quantity. If romance is involved, don't make the characters engage in a rushed/forced marriage. More supports for characters of the same gender (not necessarily romantic). Avatar x everyone isn't necessary.

[ckc22]

Alternatively, keep the Dual system the way it was in FE13, but allow enemies to support, pair up, and engage in dual battles, though this is just wishful thinking on my part.

This is a way more interesting alternative than the former. There really should have been at least some commander pairups even if average mooks couldn't do it in Awakening.

[NekoKnight]

Dual Strike needs to be re-balanced (by lowering DS rate, or limiting the damage the second unit can deal... etc.), because while it doesn't make much difference early-game, you can reach up to 70+% DS rate with S-rank in later chapters even without grinding. However, enemies' stats must also be adjusted accordingly to make sure that such a change won't become a major hindrance in beating the chapters (i.e don't make them annoyingly tanky or have sky-high HP). Alternatively, keep the Dual system the way it was in FE13, but allow enemies to support, pair up, and engage in dual battles, though this is just wishful thinking on my part. The stat-boosts and bonuses, on the other hand, are fine and aren't exactly broken.

Better support conversations, even if that means less supports in terms of quantity. If romance is involved, don't make the characters engage in a rushed/forced marriage. More supports for characters of the same gender (not necessarily romantic). Avatar x everyone isn't necessary.

Dual Strike needs to be rebalanced (definitely lower the cap to at least 50%) but I wouldn't like it if the enemy paired up. It would just leave more encounters purely to chance. Now you'd have to factor in enemy Dual Strikes into your calculations of whether or not your unit could survive an encounter. It was the same way with mastery skills in Radiant Dawn. If they activated for the enemy, you were pretty much screwed.

[DarkSage764]

I liked Awakening's support style, it kind of fleshed out the whole cast with the unlimited supports, because it didn't force you to play the game multiple times to see every non-romantic support characters had. Plus, the whole pair up system just made getting supports, especially with weak units, easier, since you didn't have to worry about them dying and you wouldn't have to worry about the strong ones getting forced to stay behind for support reasons when it comes to movement speed.

Edit: Pair up needs to be nerfed though, in terms of buff strength or they could just limit the amount of buffs.

Edited February 24, 2015 by DarkSage764

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Im gonna be honest here. As much as I disliked FE13, in some ways, the way they handled support build up is probably the best in the series, since you need to work up some positioning into the game, and/or use Pair Up.

Fix Pair Up some, and maybe adjust some value and it would be my ideal version

Or they used Super Robot Wars L approach. I really like the PU mechanic on that game, and it is actually fairly close to pair up. Admitably there are some problem with giving Pair up to the enemy unit, since Fire Emblem is pretty much designed with having 1 character in 1 panel, so a combat between Pair vs Pair would look really awkward

Speaking of support convo, while they are introduced in FE6, previous games used to have a simmilar feature, namely FE4. Just like FE13, they both have marriage feature and their support conversation, or at least FE4 iteration of the feature is FUCKING TERRIBLE.

[Awakener_]

Keep Awakening's support, if not broken why touch it? I don't see how pair up is broken like everyone is saying, you are giving up a extra unit to used in order to boost another unit's stats and for a small chance to DS and DG. Unless one decided to grind to max stats and supports, which by then the game is already broken. Over committing on pair up could allow enemies with their superior numbers to quickly overwhelmed a unit, it happened to me so many times when I play a new game thinking one pair up could just solo the map but only resulted in that unit's death. High stats and supports correlate to big stats boost and high DS/DG rates, try pair up with not so high stats unit and you will realized pair up is not broken at all.

[NekoKnight]

Keep Awakening's support, if not broken why touch it? I don't see how pair up is broken like everyone is saying, you are giving up a extra unit to used in order to boost another unit's stats and for a small chance to DS and DG. Unless one decided to grind to max stats and supports, which by then the game is already broken. Over committing on pair up could allow enemies with their superior numbers to quickly overwhelmed a unit, it happened to me so many times when I play a new game thinking one pair up could just solo the map but only resulted in that unit's death. High stats and supports correlate to big stats boost and high DS/DG rates, try pair up with not so high stats unit and you will realized pair up is not broken at all.

Even as someone who avoided grinding too much, DS and DG activated frequently and trivialized many encounters. That doesn't mean you can always run in without thinking but the sum of a pair is larger than its parts. It's less an issue early on when your shared support rank but people are going to pair spouses so...yeah.

For good game design, it shouldn't be up to the player to hamstring themselves so the game doesn't get too easy. I like pair up but it should be toned down a bit.

[Awakener_]

Even as someone who avoided grinding too much, DS and DG activated frequently and trivialized many encounters. That doesn't mean you can always run in without thinking but the sum of a pair is larger than its parts. It's less an issue early on when your shared support rank but people are going to pair spouses so...yeah.

For good game design, it shouldn't be up to the player to hamstring themselves so the game doesn't get too easy. I like pair up but it should be toned down a bit.

Awakening's pair up is designed to encourage different possible pairings solely because of the bonus its provided, making pairing up too weak discouraged pairing like Ricken and Lissa. With the main advertised feature is its new supports system, I am sure IS doesn't want players to just focus on the pairing that provide the best result. Yes good game design shouldnt have players themselves imposed their restriction to make the game challenging but a good game design should also encourage players to use it features to the fullest. Awakening did great regarding that, without grinding too much I feel that the both DS and DG are fine without being too powerful. Also if there challenging post-game maps like Awakening did, pair up is a great tool. Edited February 24, 2015 by Awakener_

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Pair Up is actually too powerful for a single reason that plagues Strategy games in general, and thats the fact that Quality tend to be better than Quantity on a really extreme ends. In theory, having more unit should be better, but reality strikes when you realize that a lot of time the other units tend to be a deadweight. The consequences of a combat is either you get away with it or not(aka dead). Dead enemy means less enemy. Less enemy means the map get simpler. since there is so much they can do with few units. Therefore the easiest way to make map simpler is to have something that can kill them effectively, and the best way to make something that kill effectively, is none other than giving them the resource needed. Basically, in a lot of cases, what the other, weaker units tend to do, is becoming a deadweight since they distract the enemy from attacking the unit that you want to pour resource into, both stealing the EXP and making the map more complicated.

Where Pair Up comes into this big picture, is the fact that Pair Up turns an otherwise probable deadweight, into a way to make something kill more effectively. This comes with a delcious side effect of giving the effective power of what full deployment could have been in an ideal scenario, with the resource management that is done with small unit numbers. I guess, in some ways Pair Up does suceed in making full deployment a practical thing instead of an unrealistic luxury, but one its core, Pair Up encourages small army size, which make it kinda broken in design, and perhaps in the actual game as well.

The fact that efficient gameplay tend to revolves around a few of core units who start strong and end strong, with everyone else playing a cheerleader role is a proof of this.

As for DS and DG, fuck random mechanic. That is all

[Florete]

I liked the way Awakening did them overall. It has the most realistic way to build them that is also practical, it has reasonable bonuses, and being able to support with most characters is really nice. It just needs to give all characters that latter ability and not make S ranks a sudden marriage out of nowhere. I'm fine with S ranks being there, but they should essentially be the start [of the romance], not the end.

As far as quality conversations go, I highly doubt this idea would ever happen, but a best-of-both-worlds scenario would allow us to support anyone with anyone but only have full conversations between specific pairs.

Your concern is butchering one of the most key things to an FE experience the relationship between the various characters. Gotcha.

This is an unfair assessment. Fire Emblem is a game first and foremost. It is completely reasonable for someone to be concerned with good gameplay before story.

[Shadow Stalker X]

I'd prefer if they did a return to the GBA style of limited supports, but with more overall possibilities (perhaps 7-9 max) for supports in a playthrough, with only one support reaching the highest level. Though if marriage was removed from the game (and without time travel shenanigans involved, any marriage would have little real play value), I had an idea that would give some value to any max level support. My idea is simply this: if two units reach max support with each other, then they each gain a skill that they otherwise wouldn't be able to obtain.

[Radiant head]

Shinon and Rolf's base conversation, 'Master and Pupil', where he gives Rolf the Silencer is proof you don't need a pain in the ass support system for good character development.

Awakening's support system is fine by me though. Pair up is pretty broken, especially since enemies can't pair up. But I haven't done Lunatic+, so for all I know pair up is basically essential there.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Radiant head

[NinjaMonkey]

I'd prefer if they did a return to the GBA style of limited supports

My idea is simply this: if two units reach max support with each other, then they each gain a skill that they otherwise wouldn't be able to obtain.

No skill is worth having to stand two units together for 240 turns.

[IceBrand]

If there was a fusion between Awakening's and POR support system, you'll have 5-10 supports conversation after ever battle. Awakening kept it the most simplified so i'll stay with that.

[Shadow Stalker X]

No skill is worth having to stand two units together for 240 turns.

I only meant in the sense that the number of supports a unit can gain in a playthrough are limited. As far as growing supports, I prefer either PoR or Awakening's style of support growth.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Shadow Stalker X

[Topazd]

In all honesty, I do think support conversations constitute the majority of character development (bar the main characters) whenever they are present. Awakening's bloated amount of convos resulted in a mostly uninspired mess, something I think not worth doing just because the gameplay necessitates such. So in that sense I'd be willing to go with the option of separating support convos and the gameplay bonuses in the case that pair up returns, even if I didn't particularly enjoy the system.

Of course I'd still want PoR supports to be the norm, but hopes akin to such are rather utopistic at this point.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Topazd

[NekoKnight]

As far as quality conversations go, I highly doubt this idea would ever happen, but a best-of-both-worlds scenario would allow us to support anyone with anyone but only have full conversations between specific pairs.

This is an unfair assessment. Fire Emblem is a game first and foremost. It is completely reasonable for someone to be concerned with good gameplay before story.

But Fire Emblem is special because it ties story/character development to in game bonuses. It rewards people who like story and/or gameplay. When you think about it, pair up is kind of a "support everyone" feature already. Two guys stand by each other and get stat bonuses.

[Radiant head]

It's close, but not any two characters can pair up.

It's good enough for me though as someone who prefers RD's system.

Edited February 25, 2015 by Radiant head

[wallhadrian]

I think the avatar should be able to marry whomever they want, but AS YOU SAID, depending on personality if it's a thing. As long as I get to choose whomever I want.

Otherwise, S supports should be more limited, or at least harder to get if it's going to be with everyone. But really, it isn't so hard. All of Henry's supports are really well done even between a girl that isn't like him at all.

[NekoKnight]

I think the avatar should be able to marry whomever they want, but AS YOU SAID, depending on personality if it's a thing. As long as I get to choose whomever I want.

Otherwise, S supports should be more limited, or at least harder to get if it's going to be with everyone. But really, it isn't so hard. All of Henry's supports are really well done even between a girl that isn't like him at all.

Ehh, Henry's supports with Cordelia is him being a super Nice Guy until Cordelia renounces her Chromosexuality and instantly falls for Henry. It's rather cringe-worthy. The GBA games did a good job of presenting believable relationships. Erk was a bodyguard to Serra and Priscilla. Lyn and Rath shared a country and culture, etc. A lot of the supports in awakening just felt like excuses to get two people to make a baby.

If Waifu (or Husbando) Emblem continues, I hope they give options to take the Avatar in a unique direction. It's not realistic for one person to be able to relate to EVERYONE, least of all to the point where they would feel like getting married.

Edited February 25, 2015 by NekoKnight

[NinjaMonkey]

It's not realistic for one person to be able to relate to EVERYONE, least of all to the point where they would feel like getting married.

It's not realistic to have someone stabbed in the chest with a lance and have them be physically unaffected by it either, but it still happens in FE.

[NekoKnight]

It's not realistic to have someone stabbed in the chest with a lance and have them be physically unaffected by it either, but it still happens in FE.

Those are understandable breaks from reality to accommodate for this being a game. It would be too much trouble to program an animation for every imaginable reaction to damage. I'm insisting that the writers make a believable story/character relationships.

[ckc22]

I'd prefer if they did a return to the GBA style of limited supports, but with more overall possibilities (perhaps 7-9 max) for supports in a playthrough, with only one support reaching the highest level. Though if marriage was removed from the game (and without time travel shenanigans involved, any marriage would have little real play value), I had an idea that would give some value to any max level support. My idea is simply this: if two units reach max support with each other, then they each gain a skill that they otherwise wouldn't be able to obtain.

Eh... I think having unlimited non-S supports provides a huge opportunity to flesh out characters and relationships.

I like the idea of S-rank support providing some ability/stat/asset to each other, I've mentioned that previously in this thread.

I'd prefer one - S rank, unlimited As, S rank provides some kind of bonus to each partner in the support. S ranks are not necessarily romantic/marriage, but a diverse array of relationships. Support potentials are lowered from the ~12+ for most characters to ~5-8 like you mention. This way you get better quality supports, keep some characters customization/building, without sacrificing story/character building potential.

[Respite&Nepenthe]

Eh... I think having unlimited non-S supports provides a huge opportunity to flesh out characters and relationships.

I like the idea of S-rank support providing some ability/stat/asset to each other, I've mentioned that previously in this thread.

I'd prefer one - S rank, unlimited As, S rank provides some kind of bonus to each partner in the support. S ranks are not necessarily romantic/marriage, but a diverse array of relationships. Support potentials are lowered from the ~12+ for most characters to ~5-8 like you mention. This way you get better quality supports, keep some characters customization/building, without sacrificing story/character building potential.

I like this. I'm even a fan of romance in FE13, but I would also like more diverse relationships. All meaningful relationships don't have to be sexual.

I'd also be okay with ONLY the avatar being able to marry, if it bore some relevance to the story or in-game dialogue.