Wolf and Finn, Loyal to a fault.

[Jedi]

In the favorite villains thread I partly discussed this, but we have a rather interesting dynamic here between FE3 and FE4 in the category of loyalty.

Wolf, leader of the Wolfguard, was saved by Hardin when he was in slavery in Aurelis. Along with his fellows, Sedgar, Roshea and Biraku Vyland. They pledged their loyalty to Hardin, to death. Which actually happens in Mystery of the Emblem, The Wolfguard tragically stands against Marth other than Roshea and falls alongside their now Dark Emperor despite his fall to darkness. Wolf never even questions his lords orders, in New Mystery of the Emblem, the Wolf Guard can all be spared and join, however Wolf is the last and least likely to fight against his lord.

In the end of New Mystery if he survives he ends up throwing himself into battles hoping to die to join his departed master (unless Femu has a support with him if I recall).

Finn, a young Lenster knight devoted to his lord Prince Quan, his loyalty is also noted in various chats with other characters and extends into his later life after Quan and Ethlyn tragically die after a Thracian ambush near Barhara.

Finn looks after Leif, Quan's son as a dutiful attendant and father figure. When the king of Lenster is slain and Finn has to get Leif to safety he follows him to the absolute end, helping him endure struggle after struggle in Thracia 776, later when he meets Leif's sister. Altenna he openly shows his emotions for the first time in quite some time, according to himself. He's also loyal to Lachesis, who we can fight over canon about, but even the main site explains "After the events of Geneaology of Holy War, Fin leaves Prince Leaf and goes to fulfill an unknown personal agenda. There are later rumours of him being spotted looking for someone in the Yied Desert, in the same area where Lachesis had been supposed to pass through years before only to never be seen again."

So there you have 2 characters highly driven by loyalty, is Finn a take on Wolf from a still tragic yet not completely hopeless case? Did IS just happen to like this kind of character to give us two characters who demonstrated loyalty both one who oft spoke when he could or felt like it, to the more quiet and always serious (which funny enough Finn also shows these traits after Quan and Ethlyns untimely ends).

I just felt it was an interesting duo to talk about. Both characters are absolutely loyal to their lords. The world changing/removing their lords provides both with various challenges, which they react to very differently. Yet you can't help but see SOME similarities.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Jedi

[Tryhard]

I like the Wolfguard, despite their very minor part.

But tragic loyalty among enemies is not exactly exclusive to Wolf, like Bryce or Shiharam as well as many others. I suppose having Wolf change sides along with Hardin makes it more interesting, however.

[Jedi]

I like the Wolfguard, despite their very minor part.

But tragic loyalty among enemies is not exactly exclusive to Wolf, like Bryce or Shiharam as well as many others. I suppose having Wolf change sides along with Hardin makes it more interesting, however.

Yeah, I know it's not exclusive to him, I suppose I compare him most to Finn because they are both player characters affected by this. Bryce and Shiharam are also really good examples. As is Gale (kind of?), etc.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Jedi

[sirmola]

Loyalty is one of the main themes of the series. The camus archetype (an otherwise resionable guy who you are forced to kill because he is too loyal the the villeins) appears in almost every FE. Camus and eltshan are two most examples from the abovementionad games, but there are a wide variety of others, including several player characters. However, it tends too be less obvious among player characters because their loyalty gets put to the test less often, although there are examples (such as lucia).

Edited March 11, 2015 by sirmola

[Jedi]

Loyalty is one of the main themes of the series. The camus archetype (an otherwise resionable guy who you are forced to kill because he is too loyal the the villeins) appears in almost every FE. Camus and eltshan are two most examples from the abovementionad games, but there are a wide variety of others

*nods*, It just sticks out to me somewhat more when both of these characters start as player characters (Which Camus did twice as well. After the first game he showed up in)

I just feel their loyalty is a bit more draining on their characters.

[Tryhard]

Yeah, I know it's not exclusive to him, I suppose I compare him most to Finn because they are both player characters affected by this. Bryce and Shiharam are also really good examples. As is Gale (kind of?), etc.

True, I wasn't saying that it wasn't possible that Finn was inspired by Wolf, especially considering FE4/5 was released directly after, the playable part is different from most of the rest that I can think of.

In the end of New Mystery if he survives he ends up throwing himself into battles hoping to die to join his departed master (unless Femu has a support with him if I recall).

I've never actually seen if the ending changes, but I don't think it does? I may be wrong on that. He was saved from being a slave by Hardin in the past and that was the only indication of why he had undying loyalty to him according to some designer notes from FE3 I believe, that I can't really find now. Mind you, that's a pretty big deal.

[Jedi]

I've never actually seen if the ending changes, but I don't think it does? I may be wrong on that. He was saved from being a slave by Hardin in the past and that was the only indication of why he had undying loyalty to him according to some designer notes from FE3 I believe, that I can't really find now. Mind you, that's a pretty big deal.

I don't recall it myself, I was making a blind guess honestly ^^; it's been awhile since I finished FE12.

[Dandragon]

Isn't this literally the reason why people like Camus or Ishtar AREN'T recruitable?

[Jedi]

Isn't this literally the reason why people like Camus or Ishtar AREN'T recruitable?

But he was for two games :P, but mostly yes.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

I think its pretty cool that by Thracia, they dropped some hints that Fiin is somewhat supposed to be a foil to Trabant

- Trabant is loyal to his country. While it might sounds stupid, Finn is loyal to Quan alone. He never really shows a particular loyalty to Leinster, since he spent his life guarding Quan's son. At the end of Thracia, he decided to make a decision that pleases Leif(admitably crosses with his loyalty to Lachy) instead.

- Finn is a normal guy. Travant is a king who wield the Gugnir

- Finn is depicted as emotionless. Travant action is pretty much emotional. He is attached to his country, and some part of his actions is driven by the fact that he loved his children and people

- and last but definitely not least, Finn is a terrible, terrible parent. He apparently spoiled Leif, and acts really cold to Nanna. Of course the scene that pictured this is directly followed by Altenna and Travant having a completely functional father daughter relationship.

Hell Finn don't even want his child to inherit his Brave Lance. What a dick

[Cymbalina's Revenge]

I just felt it was an interesting duo to talk about. Both characters are absolutely loyal to their lords. The world changing/removing their lords provides both with various challenges, which they react to very differently. Yet you can't help but see SOME similarities.

I think you're onto something here and I'd argue Perceval is actually the next in line of this... well, I won't call it an archetype but it's a pattern IMO. The twist with Perceval is his deceased Lord comes back. We meet him after he thinks his world has come apart and then, surprise!

So yes, I think they liked this type of character. :)

That said, by the time IS was done developing Finn circa FE5 there are a couple of pre-Jugdral influences besides Wolf, I think. Like in FE5, Finn gets a foil in Glade, and that seems an echo of the older Cain and Abel from Book II of FE3 with their divergent paths in life[*].

Also-- and this is drawing on the interview bits from Treasure-- with Finn it's possible that hopeless loyalty really wasn't the point of the end of his character arc. For a character allegedly created as an "objective witness" to the Holy War he doesn't seem, um, very objective... but I guess there is that conversation where he's rebuking Leif for being reckless that could be read as a retroactive criticism of Quan's pointless death far from home.

IDK. They were doing a lot with Finn and some of it goes in weird directions. But I still do think there's a pattern especially when you consider Perceval.

* See also, Seth vs Orson. The dutiful-to-a-fault paladin and the guy who sells out his king for zombie love-- Book II Cain and Abel turned into a literal horror show.

[General Horace]

I think its pretty cool that by Thracia, they dropped some hints that Fiin is somewhat supposed to be a foil to Trabant

- Trabant is loyal to his country. While it might sounds stupid, Finn is loyal to Quan alone. He never really shows a particular loyalty to Leinster, since he spent his life guarding Quan's son. At the end of Thracia, he decided to make a decision that pleases Leif(admitably crosses with his loyalty to Lachy) instead.

- Finn is a normal guy. Travant is a king who wield the Gugnir

- Finn is depicted as emotionless. Travant action is pretty much emotional. He is attached to his country, and some part of his actions is driven by the fact that he loved his children and people

- and last but definitely not least, Finn is a terrible, terrible parent. He apparently spoiled Leif, and acts really cold to Nanna. Of course the scene that pictured this is directly followed by Altenna and Travant having a completely functional father daughter relationship.

Hell Finn don't even want his child to inherit his Brave Lance. What a dick

where does it say that he's cold to Nanna? In the only conversation he has with her in Thracia afaik is in chapter 7 and it's really pretty similar to Leaf's (he expresses more concern for Nanna really) and at the end of Thracia he goes off and looks for Lachesis instead of staying by Leaf's side. Not saying he cares more about Nanna than Leaf (he doesn't) but unless you have some source that I don't know about, I don't really think that it's true.

I don't think he really spoiled Leaf either. I wouldn't call self sacrifice spoiling him anyway (like how he'd go without eating if they were short on food). And you can't really say Altenn and Trabant ever really had a good relationship. It's clear Areone was the favoured child (which makes sense).

to be fair none of Fin's possible kids in fe4 can even inherit the brave lance anyway

[Delphi Sage]

I had a really bit retort to give to M_A's comparison of Wolf, Fin and Percival, but my iPhone refreshed on me.

Basically, there is no connection to them other than being complicated mounted units that she probably finds really attractive for having realistic inner turmoil.

Wolf exists to highlight FE3's moral grays, Fin exists to communicate Kaga's Thracia favoritism, and Percival exists to expand on Etruria's politics.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Delphi Sage

[MartyTheDemonSlayer]

Finn isn't depicted as entirely emotionless. After all, there is that one conversation in FE4 where he breaks down crying in front of Altenna.

Edited March 11, 2015 by MartyTheDemonSlayer

[General Horace]

I wouldn't say emotionless, but you can't really argue that he doesn't have much of a personality.


He's still one of my favourite units in the series regardless.

[Jedi]

I wouldn't say emotionless, but you can't really argue that he doesn't have much of a personality.

He's still one of my favourite units in the series regardless.

Imo it goes

Eager Young Knight(or stud whatever)->Emotionless yet caring Knight after Quan dies->an inbetween when Altenna is found alive.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Jedi

[Delphi Sage]

He's not so much emotionless as he is bland in Gen 2. It's the natural consequence of using him solely as an expositor for character relationships. The only convos where he actually has focus are all completely optional: if he married Adean or Ayra, he's able to talk to Lakche or Lana; and that iconic teary breakdown over Altenna can easily be replaced with Altenna and Hannibal sharing their concerns over how Thracia had ended up after the events of Chapter 9.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Delphi Sage

[Mekkah]

Finn also has a convo with Nanna in FE5 which doesn't strike me as particularly cold.

Nanna:
“Father!?”

Finn:
“Nanna… Thank goodness you’ve alive. Are you all right? Are you hurt?”

Nanna:
“No, I’m fine. Eyvel protected me…”

Finn:
“I see… I wouldn’t know what to say to that person if something had happened to you…”

Nanna:
“Father…”

Finn:
“Hm? Is something wrong?”

Nanna:
“No… Sorry. Never mind…”

Finn:
“Well, if you say so. Anyway, return to the back lines. Your staves are useful, but you shouldn’t be up front like this.”

Nanna:
“Yes, father…”

[icercube]

This is an interesting comparison. But as someone stated earlier, loyalty is a running theme in the FE series. Each character is loyal to their homeland/masters for different reasons, and I think this could apply to anyone. Mustafa from FE13 anyone?

As far as Wolf goes, I think he's fiercely loyal to Hardin for giving him a new life. There's not much about Finn's backstory that explains why he's so loyal to Quan and Ethlyn in the first place (unless you take Lenster's Fall into play, in which they mention that Finn's father died and Quan's family took him in...I think; it's been a while).Must be a knight thing, understandable considering the times.

[Jave]

Levail probably counts too, although it kinda sucks his chapter can end with him alive and it's never addressed. I guess he canonically dies anyway.