The issue of incest in FE...

[Twylis]

Really can't stand all the homosexality-incest false equivalence. In general, not just in this thread. It's rampant.

The reason incest is so deplorable is because of its exploitative nature; it's a grotesquely imbalanced power dynamic that distorts a platonic, familial role into one of a sexual nature. This is especially horrid in sibling relationships, because the additional role of authority that the older sibling has is significantly more pronounced. And there's few things worse than parental incest, though thankfully no one here appears to be arguing in favour of that.

It's basically the same reason teacher-student relationships are so problematic, only magnified.

​It's disingenuous to act as if potential genetic issues are the only problem here, especially considering modern birth control. By that logic, incest between adoptive siblings would be perfectly acceptable.

[NekoKnight]

Really can't stand all the homosexality-incest false equivalence. In general, not just in this thread. It's rampant.

The reason incest is so deplorable is because of its exploitative nature; it's a grotesquely imbalanced power dynamic that distorts a platonic, familial role into one of a sexual nature. This is especially horrid in sibling relationships, because the additional role of authority that the older sibling has is significantly more pronounced. And there's few things worse than parental incest, though thankfully no one here appears to be arguing in favour of that.

It's basically the same reason teacher-student relationships are so problematic, only magnified.

​It's disingenuous to act as if potential genetic issues are the only problem here, especially considering modern birth control. By that logic, incest between adoptive siblings would be perfectly acceptable.

I'll give you that parent-child incest is probably inherently exploitative but for two people in the same generation, I don't think it's a very strong case. Any relationship, regardless of blood, can be exploitative, but that's a matter of individual cases and not a rule. One can date a person older than themselves and not be under coercion.

As far as incest in fiction is concerned, I think the reason why a lot of people like or are at least okay with it is because it's seen as forbidden romance. It's more enticing because it's not allowed generally. These views don't carry over to real life where relationships can be dysfunctional and uneven.

Edited April 8, 2015 by NekoKnight

[Ganhur]

When it comes to lack of consent and imbalanced power, that is defined as rape. And it is understandable when the a person or sibling coerce another into his/her bidding because of the power play. The whole relationship suddenly becomes a tragic story.

But what if two mature siblings who understand the risks agree with each other? There's a case in Germany where a boy was put to adoption at early age. 20 years later he return to find his parents but met his sister and fell in love. They both got married and was cleared by jury and priests. The two are children of the same parents but were raised in different places, so they did not have any family relationship between them so it is easier to pass the culture barrier and develop and romantic relationship. The girl had her parents who were disgusted by the idea. Still, she said 'yes' even though she was fully aware of the man who is her brother and understood the risk of inbreeding.

It is incest because both people have the same DNA to prove they are indeed siblings, but they have feelings for each other as a matured man and woman. So it is not rape or has anything to do with lack of consent and power play.

[Twylis]

I'll give you that parent-child incest is probably inherently exploitative but for two people in the same generation, I don't think it's a very strong case. Any relationship, regardless of blood, can be exploitative, but that's a matter of individual cases and not a rule. One can date a person older than themselves and not be under coercion.

As far as incest in fiction is concerned, I think the reason why a lot of people like or are at least okay with it is because it's seen as forbidden romance. It's more enticing because it's not allowed generally. These views don't carry over to real life where relationships can be dysfunctional and uneven.

When it comes to lack of consent and imbalanced power, that is defined as rape. And it is understandable when the a person or sibling coerce another into his/her bidding because of the power play. The whole relationship suddenly becomes a tragic story.

But what if two mature siblings who understand the risks agree with each other? There's a case in Germany where a boy was put to adoption at early age. 20 years later he return to find his parents but met his sister and fell in love. They both got married and was cleared by jury and priests. The two are children of the same parents but were raised in different places, so they did not have any family relationship between them so it is easier to pass the culture barrier and develop and romantic relationship. The girl had her parents who were disgusted by the idea. Still, she said 'yes' even though she was fully aware of the man who is her brother and understood the risk of inbreeding.

It is incest because both people have the same DNA to prove they are indeed siblings, but they have feelings for each other as a matured man and woman. So it is not rape or has anything to do with lack of consent and power play.

The scenario is different when the siblings in question are both mature adults, yes, but the dynamic between teenage siblings is very much one of mentorship and authority. Particularly given that the older one will generally be much more knowledgeable regarding sex and relationships.

(I'm operating on the assumption that the characters in questions are in their late teens or very early 20s, mind)

It's also important to keep in mind that it's not just a matter of coercion - it's taking advantage of relative naivete so that coercion isn't actually necessary.

Regarding fiction, yeah, most people are able to differentiate it from real life. I'm moreso referring to how most people seem to think it's only wrong in real life because of genetic similarity, and act as if a lack thereof suddenly makes it totally okay.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Twylis

[Roflolxp54]

As you've stated yourself, OP, some forms of incest can be avoided in Fire Emblem. However, the fact remains that incest is a theme present in Fire Emblem (as some users have already stated, incest was actually used as a PLOT DEVICE in FE4, which has been considered by many older fans to be one of the greatest Fire Emblem games ever).

Also, Fire Emblem is a medieval fantasy-themed franchise (gotta keep 'em bloodlines pure, eh?) and that the franchise is made in Japan, which may have different attitudes to incest when compared to other parts of the world like America, hence the non-JP. branches of Nintendo putting in the extra mile to censor several mentions of incest in Awakening (to some degree of success) during localization.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Roflolxp54

[Rawkstar]

WHAT DO YOU HAVE AGAINST TWINCEST?! IF THEY WANT TO LOVE EACH OTHER YOU SHOULDN'T BE ABLE TO TELL THEM WHO THEY CAN AND CANNOT LOVE!! PLUS IT DOESN'T AFFECT YOU, SO WHY WOULD YOU CARE?! Heh, looks like incest and gay rights have a lot in common :P

Jokes aside I was never bothered by it. Honestly, whether FE8 had twincest elements or not, I feel like flaws in the characters like that remind you that the characters are actually human and aren't perfect (no matter how demented the imperfections may be). That's why I wasn't a big fan of Ike, he was just so generic. He was a perfect being with almost no flaws and a cliched back story. He didn't like killing, he wanted peace, was against nobility, money, and titles...just so plain. Flaws add depth. I do think that elements of incest are a little bit over the top, but it's nothing you shouldn't be able to handle, especially because it is a real part of our world. Ultimately though, the issue is tabooed, especially in today's society, so I wouldn't expect to see any elements of it in the upcoming game.

[The Geek]

Anyone who's taken a basic Biology course could tell you why incest is a bad thing, at least if you plan on having kids. Three words: deletrious recessive alleles.

[DomesticHausCat]

Stuff like incest doesn't bother me if it is used to enhance a story. Which IMO, it hasn't been used to enhance the story so far in any games yet.

SPOILERS

Even in FE4, it wouldn't change much if Deirdre and Arvis weren't related. I mean really the writers could have just had them both have the necessary holy blood to make Julius without them being related. It literally added nothing to the story and just made some players grossed out.

END SPOILERS

An example of an incest relationship that actually added to the story is the one in Game of Thrones. Where it actually is a source of drama for the story. If Fire Emblem wants to do something like that, then I'm all for stuff like this. If not, then there's really no point and you're just going to gross some players out.

[Nyanko]

I hope none of the siblings on either side are available for marriage. It would really cheapen Kamui's relationship with them to me.

[nordopolica]

I hope none of the siblings on either side are available for marriage. It would really cheapen Kamui's relationship with them to me.

Yes. Romance is not the only way you can connect with a character, particularly if they are siblings and already have an established/developing familial bond.

[Party Moth]

Stuff like incest doesn't bother me if it is used to enhance a story. Which IMO, it hasn't been used to enhance the story so far in any games yet.

*InsertFE4SpoilersHere*

I agree with you that it should be used to enhance a story rather than for, say, otaku fanservice. However, I think you're dismissing the point of it in FE4.

[spoiler=FE4 Spoilers]Alvis and Deidre's relation is important when considering the very nature of the game (Genealogy). Certain bloodlines have to be passed down carefully to preserve holy blood, so when one type of blood is frowned upon (Lopt blood) it becomes difficult to track down descendants of Galle.

The reason the Loptyr Sect went with incest was because finding another person with Lopt blood would be like searching for a needle in a haystack, and the needle may or may not even exist. Alvis and Deidre were the easiest path to their goals. To remove the incest plot line would require either major retconning of FE4's lore or writing in some crazyrandomhappenstance that there's another Lopt blood carrier and they just happened to walk into the Loptyr Sect. It's also intended to show the Loptyr Sect's desperation and depravity after centuries of being outcast to the shadows.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

[NekoKnight]

Anyone who's taken a basic Biology course could tell you why incest is a bad thing, at least if you plan on having kids. Three words: deletrious recessive alleles.

That's less of an issue for singular instances of incest. When people think about the dangers of inbreeding, they usually think about consecutive inbreeding, such as dog breeding and certain royal families in Europe.

An example of an incest relationship that actually added to the story is the one in Game of Thrones. Where it actually is a source of drama for the story. If Fire Emblem wants to do something like that, then I'm all for stuff like this. If not, then there's really no point and you're just going to gross some players out.

Incest doesn't always need to be a plot point. It can simply be there. The twincest subtext in FE8 wasn't to gross the player out (probably why it remains subtext), it's just to show that the twins are really close.

[DomesticHausCat]

I agree with you that it should be used to enhance a story rather than for, say, otaku fanservice. However, I think you're dismissing the point of it in FE4.

[spoiler=FE4 Spoilers]Alvis and Deidre's relation is important when considering the very nature of the game (Genealogy). Certain bloodlines have to be passed down carefully to preserve holy blood, so when one type of blood is frowned upon (Lopt blood) it becomes difficult to track down descendants of Galle.

The reason the Loptyr Sect went with incest was because finding another person with Lopt blood would be like searching for a needle in a haystack, and the needle may or may not even exist. Alvis and Deidre were the easiest path to their goals. To remove the incest plot line would require either major retconning of FE4's lore or writing in some crazyrandomhappenstance that there's another Lopt blood carrier and they just happened to walk into the Loptyr Sect. It's also intended to show the Loptyr Sect's desperation and depravity after centuries of being outcast to the shadows.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

Thats what I'm talking about. If it was retconned out, the story would more or less be exactly the same. If Arvis and Deirdre didnt share the same parent, and the nature of blood passing down was different it would effect little in the narrative. Julius would still become the dark prince and whatnot. A main reason as to why I bring this up is that I think if FE4 was released overseas I wouldn't be surprised if a retcon like this happened. In fact I would be shocked if it didn't. And if that happened then tons of overseas FE fans would be non the wiser, and likely many wouldn't be grossed out.

Though I will say one thing, if Sigurd or crew made a comment about them being related, then it would be much more interesting in my eyes. If for example Sigurd shouted "You know he's your brother! Why are you doing this?!" Before he died then it would add more to the protagonists' story, at least the first protagonist. Sure I know that he probably didn't know they were related, but hey we are talking about retcons here. Just my opinion.

Edited April 9, 2015 by DomesticHausCat

[iavasechui]

But Sigurd DIDN'T know they were related. I think the only people who did know were the lopt sect, and I'm pretty certain neither Alvis nor Deirdre knew. And those who found out later only knew after the fact.

[DomesticHausCat]

That's why I said, "but we're talking about retcons here." Meaning, they'd have to retcon that to make it work by having someone tell him. I just think something like that would add a lot of drama to the moment.

Still love the game, it's just I think there could have been more of an impact here to justify the subject matter a bit more.

Here's another weird similar conversation I had with a friend.

Me: Midgar in FF7 is amazing. So amazing, I wish you were in it the whole game.

Friend: But then it would be a different game and have a different story.

Me: It could still have the same story but be all in a smaller space. Overall it would be a better game. Just me speaking my feelings.

This is a similar vein of thought. I can understand the misunderstanding though. It's kewl man.

Edited April 9, 2015 by DomesticHausCat

[iavasechui]

Oh retcon... heh I dunno. The incest thing is one thing, but as its a bad guy plan (well outside of the whole Lachesis thing.... and the possible pairings Sylvia/Claude I know they say later she is not his long lost sister but they both have Blaggi blood and why the hell would he even mention that she reminded him of a never mentioned prior to that kidnapped sister in the first place if that retcon were true. The Ayra/Holyn thing seems more like second or even third cousins which doesn't really bother me at all, the only proof those two even have at being related in the first place is they both have minor odo blood, heck it could be even more distant than that, and they don't even look alike after all. More of the second gen potential pairs bug me more than that. Possibly pairing Nanna with Aless for one is creepy in its own way with that declaration that she wont make the same mistake as her mother... yeah because not marrying her halfbrother was a huge mistake Nanna 0_o; And yet Aless and Leen don't get a convo if you pair them despite him LEAVING his troop to PROTECT HER.... game why do you make me want to hurt you... At least Celice and Julia is only possible through glitch abuse. Now Lakche's pairings... at least the axe brothers are only her cousins if you pair Ayra with Lex, but Shanan is her cousin no matter what.... AND he helped raise her!!! -_- not to mention Lana can easily be paired with Faval and Patty can easily be paired with Lester.... which is disturbing as their mothers are IDENTICAL TWINS. I'm not entirely sure here but doesn't that genetically make them half siblings as well as first cousins since if their mothers are identical they have the same dna? (since identical twins are from the same egg cell which splits after being fertilized, fraternal twins are from two egg cells that were released at the same time) Ummm wow I got off track, still this is all up to the player which can all be safely ignored by pairing them with different people... Though there is still the thing with Altenna liking Areone(sp?) who she believed was her brother though it turned out they weren't related, this is creepier to me than Dierdre/Alvis because they had no idea they were related at all.)

I still think the child gladiators and child sacrifices was more sinister and dark than them making two half siblings get hitched, after all the only reason they went for incest was desperation and the utter lack of anyone else to work with. They were lucky Dierdre's mom had two kids in the first place.

[Paper Jam]

This is especially horrid in sibling relationships, because the additional role of authority that the older sibling has is significantly more pronounced.

So... what if they were the exact same age, like Eirika and Ephraim?

Not that there's anything incestuous about Eirika's and Ephraim's relationship, of course.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Paper Jam

[iavasechui]

So... what if they were the exact same age, like Eirika and Ephraim?

Not that there's anything incestuous about Eirika's and Ephraim's relationship, of course.

I would assume it would depend on the culture. But more than likely the male sibling would have more authority. Of course sibling incest is still ewwww.

[CazTGG]

FE8 was extremely close to this with Eirika and Ephraim's relationship and, in my opinion, really ruined their character.

It ruined Lachesis' character for me and I always avoid raising Eirika and Ephraim's support levels because I was just so much happier before I realised how bad the incestuous undertones are.

I am incredibly fascinated when people bring this up because there's nothing in the game to suggest the relationship Eirika and Ephraim share is incestuous or even platonic. Yes, they're close: They're family, of course they're going to be close, especially given the recent death of their father and the fact that the two of them are constantly separated from each other as a result of the split storyline. It's understandable they'd show concern for each other given those circumstances but it never goes as far as to suggest their relationship is intimate in any way. In fact, Ephraim's route opened up a subplot about his feelings for Myrrh. It didn't go anywhere in the main plot, but it was there. Yes, the series has had incest, most infamously with Seisen No Keifu, but Sacred Stones doesn't provide any evidence to suggest the two leads are in a relationship where such exists.

OT: At best, they'll go the way of Awakening and make relatives "Companions" rather than "Husband/Wife", if not, outright removing those options.

Edited April 10, 2015 by CazTGG

[Twylis]

So... what if they were the exact same age, like Eirika and Ephraim?

Not that there's anything incestuous about Eirika's and Ephraim's relationship, of course.

Yeah, power imbalance wouldn't be much of a thing there (unless they're in a culture in which males are ascribed greater status, as addressed, which is typically the case). A homosexual relationship between twins would probably be on the only instance of true role equality.

In that circumstance, I personally still find it objectionable solely on the grounds of violating familial roles, but that's something I recognise as purely cultural, and that's difficult to defend purely with reason. I'd say it's definitely far, far more acceptable than sibling relationships with a power difference, at least.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Twylis

[NuggetofButt]

I can't believe this is going to be the topic my first post is in...

I think everyone has already said what there is to say on the matter of incest in previous games, so I'll just say that I'm waiting to see the already established connections between Kamui and their siblings before making a judgement. Maybe they do think of each other as siblings, maybe only some of them do, maybe none of them do (except shotagirl), I'll just wait and see. I'm willing to wait, as someone with 3/4 of her family (cousins, grandparents, uncles and such) being adopted, I know that it most certainly is not the case that they all think of each other as brother and sister. That is to say, they're all on good terms, but sometimes, especially when you're adopted, you just don't make connections with people even when you grow up with them. So like I said, from first hand experience, I'm willing to keep an open mind until we get the information needed to make a sound judgement. The only weird one I think of right now is the Hoshido family, even if you aren't blood related to them (which is a possibility) they clearly think of you as their blood kin, so that would be weird for me since they already seem to have an established connection, but that can change depending on how the story goes, I'll probably still find it weird though... depends on how well it's executed.

[Ganhur]

They could be sworn siblings like Liu Bei, Guan Yu, and Zhang Fei if you are familiar with Dynasty Warriors or Romance of 3 Kingdoms, or just cousins but treat each other well enough as if same blooded siblings like those mafia and gangster movies. After all, it's a trailer and is not in English, so nothing is conclusive until you get the actual game and find out.

But I still find it awkward the fact people see Ephraim and Erika as incest. I mean how poor do you normally treat siblings to the point that one assume such powerful relationship like that as taboo and feel disgusted.

Assuming FE: If is about family and show relationships like Ephraim and Erika's, I think people who feel disgusted should already have their answer: don't buy the game.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Ganhur

[iavasechui]

Honestly I never saw anything incestuous about Ephraim and Erika. The Priscilla Raven thing on the other hand was far far more awkward. It was also my first fire emblem game and I found the whole 'Lord Brother' thing awkward BEFORE I found out about the childhood marriage promise thing... XD Thankfully that was not followed up on XD

[goodperson707]

^i still don't see the problem with priscillia raven, The lord brother thing is probally more due to differing cultures and really she was at most 6 when she did the whole marriage promise thing, i was 4 to 5 (and i was the younger one) when i had a "wedding" with my nieghbor and that was only cause my mom said i couldn't marry my cousin.

[Saladus]

EirikaXEphraim is no better than IkeXElincia. They're both made up pairings clung to for too long.

Actually, IkeXElincia is worse off since RD came out.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Saladus