poll Anyone else enjoy Lunatic more than Lunatic+?

[lacuna]

After going through several Lunatic playthroughs and recently completing my second Lunatic+ playthrough, I have found that Lunatic offers a much more enjoyable, less frustrating and less RNG-based experience than Lunatic+. With Lunatic, I did not find myself having to reset a map just to roll favorable enemy skills and minimize the amount of Luna+/Hawkeye/dreaded Counter.

Seriously, COUNTER. That skill alone counts for over half my frustration when playing Lunatic+. If the enemy has too many units with Counter, it's gg before you're even out of the preparation phase (at least early on before Second Seals become available). Chapter 3 took a ton of resets because of the emergence of counter before the ability to renown a second seal/use spotpass shops. But it doesn't even match up to Chapter 2, which I think wins the most frustrating level to play in the whole game. On Lunatic it just requires smart positioning and maybe a bit of RNG, but on Lunatic+ you'll be constantly rebooting the map to find a matchup you could possibly win - and even then it takes a whole lot of RNG to survive the first wave without casualties. The design for Lunatic+ is inherently flawed - broken skill distribution makes for an experience which is not very fun and requires unsatisfying tactics/gimmicks to use.

If you're like me, the first 11 or so chapters of Lunatic+ will find you either abusing a Nosferatu-wielding MU paired with Chrom to scape by or DLC/spotpass abuse so that the game is more grinding then it is actual gameplay - and both of these are not very rewarding. Once you get to the Valm arc, the "rescue train" gimmick becomes available - simply rescuing a chain of units to bypass the whole opponent and one-shot the boss in one turn before the other units can react. And the only viable units in Lunatic+ are Mire-bombers, Vantage/Vengeance + Nosferatu sorcs and bow wielders (Sniper, Bow Knight, Assassin, etc.) - attempting to use other units in the harsh environment that is Lunatic+ will only end in frustration and soft resets. Because of the almost guaranteed presence of Counter on at least a few enemy units, classes that can attack from 1 or 1-2 ranges get rekt on the enemy phase - the enemy will just suicide onto you and have you die via Counter. Thus there becomes a stagnation in class variation - only classes who have enough self-heal to survive the enemy phase or units who cannot attack adjacent enemies have a chance of being used in Lunatic+. Falcon Knights (or any staff wielder, really - falco knights work the best) and Dancers may see use in gimmicky, <2 turn set ups - but even then, you'll still be relying on the reliability of Nosfertanks and bow-wielders. The game becomes an exploitation of win conditions/unsatisfying tactics/map rerolls. Of course, you could use the same tactics in Lunatic, but the design of Lunatic allows for flexibility in your choices - Lunatic+ basically forces you to adapt these tactics or be really, REALLY persistent in your approach.

After that first horrifyingly brutal playthrough (I allowed myself spotpass/DLC in my next one because I was just done with the game) I have gone back to Lunatic, and I don't regret it one bit. Of course, this is just my opinion and analysis of my experience with Lunatic+, you may think of it differently. What are your opinions on Lunatic+?

EDIT: Keep in mind that I have nowhere near the expertise of some other forumers and that my relatively small amount of playthroughs may affect my perceptions on the state of Lunatic+. Feel free to take my opinion with a grain of salt.

Edited June 4, 2015 by lacuna

[Draco]

Well... yeah. Lunatic, while ridiculously hard, is still nice if you like a good challenge. It's hard as hell, but... doable.

Lunatic+ is what my cousin would call 'bloody dick hard'. It's akin to stabbing yourself repeatedly, because you're subjecting yourself to the same pain as your units. It is not managable, it is just barely doable. It's the very definition of that 'The Computer is a Cheating Bastard' trope. It is very difficult to enjoy, if actually possible. Resetting constantly to receive the ideal RNG is not the means to enjoy yourself.

EDIT: Remember opinions here. Said opinions belong to me and yours are bound to be different. My statements would also be true for the average player; I'm aware there's many experts of this game who can handle Luna+ with ease. I am not one of them.

Edited June 4, 2015 by Draco

[Czar_Yoshi]

I like Lunatic+.

Here's the thing about all that extra "RNG" that's present over Lunatic: it all takes place before you make your first move. Once the map has started, there's no extra RNG to be seen- every new skill either has a 100% activation rate or does absolutely nothing, depending on how you approach it (PavGis are the most straightforward examples of this, but it applies to all seven).

Because of that, it's possible to compensate for all that through tactics alone, without having to rely on any mid-map RNG (that wouldn't have been present in vanilla Lunatic, of course. Shaky hitrates, random enemy movement and Gamble are random threats there too, and I'd much rather face Lunatic+'s skills than them).

The design for Lunatic+ is inherently flawed

It's flawed, all right, but not in the way you think. Lunatic+'s biggest flaw- the biggest- is that while general strategies exist that can bring those skills to their knees, the other three difficulty modes of the game do absolutely nothing to teach you them, and even reinforce strategies that will get you blown up in L+. The only way to find those working L+ strategies is through hundreds and hundreds of resets worth of trial and error in which you deliberately try conventionally stupid things (like unequipping your weapon) looking for some way to get on top of the enemy horde. Or by talking to someone who's already done the work and is willing to share, which is a much better way to go about things.

Similarly, it's a lot easier (but still very hard) to brute force conventional strats through resetting for favorable skills than it is to find those strats, even if you know they exist. It's more rewarding in the end for subsequent playthroughs/showing off, but really can't help you on a first clear.

At the end of the day it's definitely not a difficulty that's for everyone and a lot of the things needed to beat it run counter to other things needed to get the "full" experience from the game. However, it's insanely rewarding (when played properly) and a good test of one's ability to think on their feet, and I thoroughly enjoy it.

If you're extra salty toward it for any reason, you can watch it get paid back in the manliest way possible here. The next stream is going to be tomorrow (two days from now? Friday) evening.

Wrt vanilla Lunatic... It takes a lot to stop my snowball with just punishing enemy growth curves, much more than the regular chapters have to offer. Fortunately, Lunatic has Risen who are able to keep up with even that, so I fight them in a no-other-grinding setting (with Nos banned as a courtesy to the Risen... Though I'm not sure it would do me much good if I had it) when I want a pure high-stats based run.

Edited June 4, 2015 by Czar_Yoshi

[Nicholai]

I think L+ is only flawed in so far as the enemies don't all spawn with set skills. The number of possible strategies that have any measure of consistency are very, very few, and getting bad rng at the start of a map can spell doom via an increased number of rng checks. Even the best of strategies at the start of the game aren't 100% (beyond prologue), as enemy crits, odd and unpredictable ai movement, and simply bad skill rolls lowers your chances.

While it can be done, and it can be done consistently, I don't think it's a lazy choice by the developers. They could have added more generic enemies, made tougher but more consistent skill sets, buffed boss mobility... there was really no need to do it this way.

Edited June 4, 2015 by Nicholai

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

If you're extra salty toward it for any reason, you can watch it get paid back in the manliest way possible here. The next stream is going to be tomorrow (two days from now? Friday) evening.

Technically more like the "womanliest" way, since female Robin carries the majority of the run (even if it's her son who really helps seal the deal in the back quarter of the run).

And to further clarify: Friday at 7PM PST.

Even the best of strategies at the start of the game aren't 100% (beyond prologue), as enemy crits, odd and unpredictable ai movement, and simply bad skill rolls lowers your chances.

Prologue isn't 100% either, although its chances of failure are very low (such as Fred being crit-blicked by a Luna+/Gamble Barb, which requires a very narrow randomization or Robin being crit-blicked by the Elthunder Mage, which is anywhere from 2% to 4% per attack; as well as the possibility of missing true hit rates in the 90s). C1 is in a similar boat, provided the player is on his/her game the whole time. C2 and C3 are where it does get a bit iffier, but once again, typically has a high success rate if the player is on point. C5 definitely currently falls into this definition, though.

Anyway, I prefer Lunatic+, myself. I like how the added skills basically work to counter conventional pet strategies and keep me thinking on the fly (with the onfortunate consequences of, as Yoshi already mentioned, making 80% of what was learned in other difficulties not particularly helpful). It makes me push the game mechanics as far as possible and it's pretty neat to see bizarre strategies working out. I will agree that Counter does have problems in its implementation—namely that it's a bit overly brute-force compared to how elegantly the other six skills addressed player strategies. It does its job of keeping overleveled characters from end-turn-spam-steamrolling the game, as well as contributing to making it more difficult to turtle/hold the line indefinitely. However, it also has the collateral of being nearly as deadly for the non-overleveled characters, in terms of proportion of damage to HP. This really contributes to making non-low-man runs more difficult and frustrating to get off the ground (which is, in turn, counterproductive, because the game should really encourage the player to not low man).

[Nicholai]

Just realized I never really answered the original question, though. I prefer Lunatic+ because it's the only game mode that makes me restart several times in the same session. That's rare for any game I've ever played, so it's a nice experience.

[Blaze The Great]

Lunatic. No doubt. Lunatic is a nice, difficult runthrough of the game that limits your options for what you want to do slightly, but still manages to be fun. Lunatic+ is just fake difficulty, and it is...not that great.

[Shadow Mir]

Haven't played Lunatic, but chose it anyways because hey, if you ask me, Lunatic+ is akin to going against Swagger in Pokemon - AKA, no fun at all.

[Czar_Yoshi]

I think L+ is only flawed in so far as the enemies don't all spawn with set skills. The number of possible strategies that have any measure of consistency are very, very few

That's kind of the point, though. The whole purpose of Lunatic+ is to make a difficulty that you can't beat using the same exact moves every time.

Haven't played Lunatic, but chose it anyways because hey, if you ask me, Lunatic+ is akin to going against Swagger in Pokemon - AKA, no fun at all.

A more accurate metaphor would be going up against a Baton Pass team, I think (for each chapter). You see it coming a mile away, but if you don't react immediately and stop it on turn 1 it becomes instantly unstoppable. Once you gain that initial map control/break the chain, you're safe unless you do something stupid.

The main difference is that you choose to fight Lunatic+, while BP randomly turns up whether you want it to or not. And it's played by a real person who will laugh at you if you lose.

[Ownagepuffs]

I fucking love Lunatic. It's so finely tuned to both the playable characters and for pair up. It's the true Awakening experience.

L+ is very interesting from a design standpoint, but it's much more limiting than Lunatic which is the only problem I have with it. Vanilla Lunatic lets you get away with a lot of things, and the strengths of some characters can really shine there. A good example is Nowi. Good on Lunatic, shoots down a few notches on L+.

[Nicholai]

That's kind of the point, though. The whole purpose of Lunatic+ is to make a difficulty that you can't beat using the same exact moves every time.

When a game difficulty is so limited (at least at the beginning) that you are basically forced to follow some or other set pattern that allows you to have any measurable advantage, it's badly thought out. It's not a bad game mode, it's just difficult for the wrong reasons, imo.

[Czar_Yoshi]

That's the game's fault in general for giving you poor earlygame options. Vanilla Lunatic too is Robin snowball or bust.

[astrophys]

For some of the reasons noted above, while I have done Lunatic/Classic and have beaten it, I greatly (personally) prefer playing on Hard/Classic.

[Nicholai]

It could have been worse, though. L+ isn't really as fun unless you are a hardcore masochist willing to sit for hours trying things over and over, successfully beating a level only to reset because you got a hp/lck level at the end and you needed speed or def for the next stage.

I would have liked it more if the same generic enemies had the same skills as normal, with the boss having something that sets them apart like mov or a unique ability. It would still be wall-to-head horrible, but it would feel less like the computer is cheating.

[Shadow Mir]

A more accurate metaphor would be going up against a Baton Pass team, I think (for each chapter). You see it coming a mile away, but if you don't react immediately and stop it on turn 1 it becomes instantly unstoppable. Once you gain that initial map control/break the chain, you're safe unless you do something stupid.

The main difference is that you choose to fight Lunatic+, while BP randomly turns up whether you want it to or not. And it's played by a real person who will laugh at you if you lose.

Ehhh, Swagger came to mind first because I generally think it's more irritating, for one, and second, Swagger's weaknesses are virtually nonexistent (assuming Swagplay even HAS weaknesses, which I highly doubt).

[Nicholai]

Ehhh, Swagger came to mind first because I generally think it's more irritating, for one, and second, Swagger's weaknesses are virtually nonexistent (assuming Swagplay even HAS weaknesses, which I highly doubt).

BP is definitely the analogy, because the only thing that properly counters a dedicated team is a mon defined as a counter. Swags might get one or two mons, but it's generally a trade and the win chance is kind of a toss up.

[Thor Odinson]

ngl L+ wasn't really that masochistic after like, 6, and better FE players than me have found fairly reliable ways to clear anything before that. L+ does its job and lives up to its name. It's pretty reasonable for something that's meant to be the toughest mode so far.

L I sometimes dick around on; I don't do the full range of my dicking around on it simply because some of the shit I do is fairly...nonconventional but it's still a mode I can legit just dick around with to a certain degree. I'm not going to say it's not challenging, sorc-rolling aside, but it's not hard enough where you can't pull weird shit with it if you really want to. Not to say you can't dick around in L+ either, but I haven't gotten that good haha

Both are fine modes that do different things and provide a challenge differently anyway. I usually run all-physical teams, so I guess I make things harder on myself anyway. I don't think I've ever ever done L+ with +speed or +def to be honest and I don't know how much easier is it from +str. I do remember it was significantly easier on L, though.

[Nobody]

I definitely prefer Lunatic. It's a nice mode, and if you can prevent yourself from destroying everything with the MU, it's actually challeging, though i prefer Hard/Classic without pair up. I've beaten Lunatic + a couple of times, but it was always through a lot of resets and brute force. I never bothered to learn the cool, reliable strategies.

[Czar_Yoshi]

assuming Swagplay even HAS weaknesses, which I highly doubt

It's banned to a tier that nobody in their right mind would play?

[Shadow Mir]

It's banned to a tier that nobody in their right mind would play?

Well, BESIDES that...

BP is definitely the analogy, because the only thing that properly counters a dedicated team is a mon defined as a counter. Swags might get one or two mons, but it's generally a trade and the win chance is kind of a toss up.

You do realize most mons on Swagplay teams are Pranksters, do you not...? That is the main reason I brought it up in the first place.

[Nicholai]

You do realize most mons on Swagplay teams are Pranksters, do you not...? That is the main reason I brought it up in the first place.

Right before it was banned there was even more Talonflame, and lesser mons like Alakazam began to actually see use. Anyway, not to get off topic anymore, because it's a something you only see in AG now anyway.

[Augestein]

I like the idea of Lunatic+ the enemies having randomly assigned skills is a cool idea. What I don't like is how they are purely random in the sense that in a bad roll you can get some really nasty setups. I'd much rather them be stuff like Hawkeye can appear on anyone, but only in 3 instances max or something like that.

The idea of Lunatic+ is to make it to where you have to pay attention every single playthrough. But it's just... I'm not a fan of the statfest that is Lunatic in general, and how the units degenerate into skills, and stats more than their actually classes and stuff... It feels off.

[Shadow Mir]

Right before it was banned there was even more Talonflame, and lesser mons like Alakazam began to actually see use. Anyway, not to get off topic anymore, because it's a something you only see in AG now anyway.

Hey, I don't want to get off topic either, but just exactly what did Alakazam have going for it that would help against Swagplay?? And Talonflame would just run into a Klefki or Thundurus with Brave Bird (and that's saying nothing of Stealth Rock, which cripples it). That being said, my two cents is that Lunatic+ makes the game a total luckfest (even if it doesn't make skill a complete non-factor like Swagger does), which I don't find to be any fun to deal with.

Edited June 6, 2015 by Levant Caprice

[Admiral "Bull" Halsey]

Personally, I find that playing through Lunatic+ requires tremendous amounts of commitments, which I lack tbh... : /

[Peachblink]

Lunatic is fun. Yeah, it's hard as all hell, but at least it gives a good challenge, although it's only based on buffed stats.

Lunatic+ is basically the point where you need to be a RNG god/goddess to get far, specially if you do a No Grind run. The random skills could work in theory, but how it's done is the problem, making you to rely on luck much more than needed to not get killer combinations like Counter and Luna+, Hawkeye and Luna+, and so on. Also, it's a fake difficulty, only based on buffed stats, thus making progress very hard and luck-based, and I don't like that kind of difficulty.