Poison Jab over Double-Edge for my Rapidash?

[Anacybele]

Yeah, another question for my team. lol

I finally got around to evolving the Ponyta I bred for my team some days ago and so far, I want its moveset to be Morning Sun (which it's already got from breeding), Flare Blitz, Megahorn, and either Poison Jab or Double-Edge. Right now, it has Double-Edge, also from breeding. But Poison Jab sounds good too because it'd give me a counter to Fairy types which I wouldn't have otherwise since none of my other team members have or will have moves to counter Fairy types. And I need a counter to Fairy types because Fairy is my Kingdra's not-Dragon weakness (and I have Dazzling Gleam on my Bellossom to counter Dragon types. Bellossom really needs to Mega evolve into a Grass/Fairy type!) and a weakness for my Lopunny when it's Mega evolved. Rapidash is also resistant to Fairy types because Fire type.

But Double-Edge is a pretty powerful physical move while Poison Jab is weaker. Still, I'm thinking Poison Jab is the better choice here. Do you guys think so?

Also, I'm not sure about my Zebstrika's moveset since its movepool isn't amazing like Rapidash's... I've given it Facade, Discharge, Confide, and Wild Charge. Facade is because Zebstrika's also capable of paralyzing its target and Confide is to counter annoying Substitute users, particularly Greninja who Zebstrika also has a type advantage against. Substitute Greninja are a pain in the ass (no wonder it uses it in Smash...). Wild Charge doesn't paralyze, but Discharge does AND hits multiple targets at once. Perhaps I should replace it with Toxic though? So I can guarantee myself a powerful Facade? Facade is stronger when the target is paralyzed, burned, or poisoned.

[Ema Skye]

Using normal coverage is awful given that it isn't actually coverage. Poison Jab is better.

[Ether]

Poison jab is better than Double Edge simply for being a relevant coverage move(Double Edge doesn't hit anything SE, so it's not ideal), though I might consider other options over Poison Jab, such as Wild Charge, Low Kick, Drill Run, or Bounce. All of them give better coverage than Poison Jab would(unless your team as a whole is severely weak to fairies).

As for Zebstrika, Facade actually gets it's power boost if the USER is status'd, not the target. But Zebstrika's physical movepool itself is rather shallow, so it doesn't have a lot of options at it's disposal. I might suggest volt switch, since it's good for momentum, over discharge, and maybe flame charge for a chance to get a speed boost.

[ZemZem]

Hell, I wouldn't even use Poison Jab...

Wild Charge would be better since then you can nail Water types.

[Shin]

Think about type coverage and relative power. Flare Blitz has a base power of 120, which goes up to 180 with STAB. A super effective Poison Jab has a power of 160, and 80 otherwise. This means that a regular Flare Blitz is going to deal more damage than a super effective Poison Jab. Unless you're dealing with a Water/Fairy type, you're pretty much always going to be better off with Flare Blitz. Maybe something like Wild Charge would be helpful instead?

Facade only gets stronger when the user has a status problem, not the enemy. Zebstrika generally doesn't have many good physical moves, but for casual play you could probably run something like Wild Charge, Return, Signal Beam and Thunder Wave?

[Ema Skye]

Actually Ana, I wouldn't run either Poison Jab or Double Edge on Rapidash. Like I said in my post before, normal coverage is awful as it doesn't do anything. However, Poison Jab is largely redundant as it only hits Fairy types (Grass is covered by the fire type move and Megahorn). I'd suggest Iron Tail as you still hit Fairy types while also hitting Rock types (which wall you right now). It's a better use of a moveslot as it will hit more targets.

You're incorrect about Facade. It only doubles in power if the user is affected by status, meaning that you don't want to run Toxic on it.

[Comet]

flare blitz will hit fairies harder than poison jab, so poison jab would be unnecessary. low kick, wild charge, and drill run are superior options to double edge for coverage.

splart is right about facade. try overheat on zebstrika so he can take out grass and steel types easier. i suggest checking your zebstrika's hidden power type and teaching it that if its hidden power typing is useful.

Edited June 9, 2015 by Comet

[Anacybele]

My Rapidash already has Low Kick... And my Zebstrika already has Wild Charge, so that one's out. I feel repeating the same moves on team members is rather redundant.

I totally read the description of Facade wrong... >_<

EDIT: Overheat on either Zebstrika OR Rapidash is a bad idea. It lowers sp. attack a lot once it's used and my Zebstrika's sp. attack stat isn't really that great (so no Hidden Power either). I only have Discharge on it because it affects multiple opponents and can cause paralysis... And my Rapidash has terrible sp. attack because of its nature (jolly).

Also, this isn't meant to be a casual team. Though it's not entirely competitive either (otherwise, I'd be using a better Electric type than Zebstrika, for one thing),

Edited June 9, 2015 by Anacybele

[Nym]

I don't know if I'm too late or that can help (since I'm not that good at pokemon) but like the others said flare blitz is already enough to deal with fairy type.

However, I know you have Morning Sun but using 2 attacks that cost your hp is kinda risky (specially if your Rapidash is poisoned).

You could teach Giga Impact to your Rapidash (if you have the TM).

Edited June 10, 2015 by Nym

[PuffPuff]

I don't know if I'm too late or that can help (since I'm not that good at pokemon) but like the others said flare blitz is already enough to deal with fairy type.

However, I know you have Morning Sun but using 2 attacks that cost your hp is kinda risky (specially if your Rapidash is poisoned).

You could teach Giga Impact to your Rapidash (if you have the TM).

For a risky move such as that...I'd prefer Swagger over that. =P

Makes your opponents mad if their pokes hit themselves. Smogon banned it for a reason.

[Nym]

I never really liked and used Swagger. Maybe because I'm a noob and I have the worst luck ever (my opponent still hit me twice even if they are confused, that happenned a lot to me).

Also because of this bad luck, an attack pokemon using an attack move could finish me up easily *cough* Close Combat *cough*.

I prefer something like Confuse Ray, it's less risky to use it.

[Anacybele]

I don't like Swagger either, because if it backfires...yeah. YOU'RE the one getting slammed with that increased attack and Rapidash doesn't have great defenses.

I also don't have the TM for Giga Impact. Plus, I don't like moves that make the user wait a turn to move again.

[Nym]

How about utility? Since Rapidash doesn't have the great defenses, teach her Will-O-Wisp so she (or he) can handle attacks a little bit longer.

And if you don't have that TM either, you can teach her Fire Spin! Yeah, you said your Rapidash have a terrible sp. attack but at least if your opponent try to call his pokemon back, you can scream : '' WHERE DO YOU THINK YOU'RE GOING?''

...

I try to hard to be funny and I sound like a tv commercial or something like that.

[Comet]

My Rapidash already has Low Kick... And my Zebstrika already has Wild Charge, so that one's out. I feel repeating the same moves on team members is rather redundant.

I totally read the description of Facade wrong... >_<

EDIT: Overheat on either Zebstrika OR Rapidash is a bad idea. It lowers sp. attack a lot once it's used and my Zebstrika's sp. attack stat isn't really that great (so no Hidden Power either). I only have Discharge on it because it affects multiple opponents and can cause paralysis... And my Rapidash has terrible sp. attack because of its nature (jolly).

Also, this isn't meant to be a casual team. Though it's not entirely competitive either (otherwise, I'd be using a better Electric type than Zebstrika, for one thing),

being forced to switch and losing a pokemon that you would later need to win a battle is worse. yes, you need to be able to counter a plethora of strategies, but your pokemon should also be somewhat self sufficient. this isn't necessarily true for hardcore strategies like truant durant > setup sweeper, but i don't think you're going to be doing that.

i was only suggesting it for zebstrika. if you just said its special attack isn't particularly good, then it would work well if you had a primarily physical set with overheat to cover stuff you wouldn't be able to deal with otherwise.

For a risky move such as that...I'd prefer Swagger over that. =P

Makes your opponents mad if their pokes hit themselves. Smogon banned it for a reason.

smogon banned it because of stupid swagger + thunder wave strategies on klefki.

How about utility? Since Rapidash doesn't have the great defenses, teach her Will-O-Wisp so she (or he) can handle attacks a little bit longer.

And if you don't have that TM either, you can teach her Fire Spin! Yeah, you said your Rapidash have a terrible sp. attack but at least if your opponent try to call his pokemon back, you can scream : '' WHERE DO YOU THINK YOU'RE GOING?''

this is a really good alternative.

the ai of opposing trainers almost never switches. that, along with rapidash not being particularly bulky, makes it a bad idea. WoW would only be good because it can cripple pokemon and the halved attack lets rapidash manage to live for another twenty seconds.

Edited June 10, 2015 by Comet

[Roflolxp54]

If you must go with either of those 2 moves, I'd go with Poison Jab for type coverage.

The only reason you'd want Double Edge is if:

1. The user has an ability like Rockhead (prevents recoil damage) or Reckless (boosts damage for recoil-inducing moves).

2. The user gets STAB off of the move (or has an ability that changes Double Edge's type that would allow the user to get STAB for it like Refrigerate or Aerilate).

EDIT: Just looked up this: http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/rapidash/ You can let Rapidash learn Drill Run, Morning Sun or Baton Pass.

Edited June 10, 2015 by Roflolxp54

[Anacybele]

Already has Morning Sun. Why Baton Pass when it doesn't have any stat increasing moves? Might make sense for my Lopunny because Power-Up Punch, though. Drill Run sounds okay.

[Ema Skye]

Baton Pass is a nice way to keep momentum in your favor due to it being a switching move. If you aren't sure if your opponent is going to switch to something that beats Rapidash (like a Water or Rock type), you can use Baton Pass and react to the situation. If they brought in that Water or Rock type, you can bring in Bellossom and keep the momentum in your favor. In a way, it makes your predictions easier because you just react to what your opponent does, as opposed to predicting what they might do.

[Anacybele]

Yeah, but if I just want to switch out for a Pokemon with a better matchup, I can just open the menu and switch that way...

[Ema Skye]

Yeah, but that requires prediction. Baton Pass reduces switching to reaction. Keep in mind that as Baton Pass is an attack, it happens after switching occurs in turn priority.

Here's the scenario:

Your Rapidash vs My Vileplume. You're at the advantage, as I'll be severely hurt by any Fire-type move. This means I have to switch. I have a Golem on my team, which beats your Rapidash. This seems like a very obvious situation, so you could consider bringing your Bellossom in. This would beat my Golem and keep you in the advantageous situation. However, if I know you have the Bellossom and think you'll switch in your Bellossom in to anticipate my Golem, I could keep Vileplume in and attack Bellossom with a super-effective Poison move.

So here are all the outcomes:

1. Neither of us switch. My Vileplume faints to your Flare Blitz. Advantage: You

2. I switch Vileplume to Golem. My Golem takes minimal damage from Flare Blitz. Advantage: Me, because I can KO your Rapidash next turn.

3. You switch Rapidash to Bellossom. I anticipate this and attack with Sludge Bomb. Advantage: Me, as your Bellossom took a ton of damage.

4. You switch Rapidash to Bellossom. I switch Vileplume to Golem. Advantage: You, as a Giga Drain will faint my Golem

Situations 2 and 3 are disadvantageous to you, and because there's 4 situations here, there's a 50-50 chance the outcome will swing to my favor. But let's see what happens if Baton Pass is a factor in these four situations.

1. Neither of us switch. You use Baton Pass. This gives you the opportunity to switch to something on your team to beat the Vileplume. Advantage: You

2. I switch Vileplume to Golem. You use Baton Pass. This gives you the opportunity to switch into Bellossom, which beats my Golem. Advantage: You

3. This situation is eliminated with Baton Pass and is now the same as situation 1.

4. This situation is eliminated with Baton Pass and is now the same as situation 1.

Notice how with Baton Pass, the possible outcomes at the end of the turn are reduced to only two instead of four. What's more, you now have a 100% chance of being in the advantageous position.

This is also why U-Turn and Volt Switch are such useful moves, because the ability to switch after your opponent has gives you the opportunity to always be in an advantageous position, which is key to success in Pokemon.

[Comet]

baton pass isn't useful against cpu ai since it rarely switches. u-turn and volt switch are still okay moves since they can deal damage while still allowing you to switch. it's good for competitive purposes though.

Edited June 11, 2015 by Comet

[PuffPuff]

I don't like Swagger either, because if it backfires...yeah. YOU'RE the one getting slammed with that increased attack and Rapidash doesn't have great defenses.

I also don't have the TM for Giga Impact. Plus, I don't like moves that make the user wait a turn to move again.

Maybe so...

As Comet already pointed out that it is bad along with another statistic which can stack along with confusion.

That you can already do more with a maxed out Returnx2 attack.

Edited June 11, 2015 by Lt_Matilda_Ajan

[Tsunami922]

Is this team you're making just for C.P.U.s, or are you playing against other people?

[Anacybele]

Well, partly for playing against other people and the Battle Maison and partly just to make the best of my favorite Pokemon. :P

[Dual Dragons]

I wouldn't worry about Poison Jab. The only part-Fairy Pokemon that are going to show resistance to Fire are Marill-Azumarill, Carbink, Diancie, and Mega Diancie. That's Water/Fairy and Rock/Fairy. The move to replace Poison Jab...

Wild Charge - casting aside redundancy, you don't want to have to switch just so you can handle a Water type, and it ignores Rock; it's another recoil move but not like Rapidash was known for its defensive stats or HP

Drill Run - ignores Water, supereffective to Rocks, and high-crit rate; makes good use of Rapidash's higher Attack

Will-O-Wisp - Burn is good for most Pokemon to cut Attack in half; just make sure you're not doing it to something like Guts Swellow that can Facade...

Toxic - it might help to take down a Pokemon that your entire team would have difficulty with; still avoid Facade-users; admittedly would only put it on a Pokemon that could stall for even a little (Toxic/Protect)

Put in order of priority.

Don't have much experience with Battle Maison after doing the Battle Train in B/W so not sure how difficult it is, but I think the above moves would give more variety to Rapidash.

[Anacybele]

Fire isn't actually super-effective against Fairy types though...