KirbySuperStar Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 (edited) Just wondering why some character are considered so bad on the tier list Marth- Good range, good recovery, very fast. Ik his range was nerfed but it's still good. Samus- Samus is just so low. Why? WFT- I thought people saw potential. Wario and Shulk- Both seem better than "B+". Captain Falcon Heavy, fast, powerful, has good combos, has attacks that move long distances, meteor smashes. Seems mostly flawless to me. Doctor Mario- DM is more powerful but slower right? He has worse recovery but isn't that work Dr. Tornado is for? I just don't get why he is SO MUCH lower than Mario (and why is Mario so high. Edit: There are probably more that I missed feel free to post your own if you want. Edited July 6, 2015 by KirbySuperStar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sentacotus Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 (edited) Captain Falcon is usually ranked pretty high. Wario and Shulk are usually mid to high mid. WFT. Hitboxes are awkward. Other than that I don't know enouch about the character. Doctor Mario. Essentially a slower Mario and can't combo as easily alot more laggy and the power you get out of him is not worth the drawback in speed. Marth. Greatly nerfed since Brawl/Melee. Grab range is not nearly as good. Very laggy and floats a bit too much. Samus. Again don't know too much about this one. Edited July 3, 2015 by LordTaco42 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingddd Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 Just wondering why some character are considered so bad on the tier list Marth- Good range, good recovery, very fast. Ik his range was nerfed but it's still good. Samus- Samus is just so low. Why? WFT- I thought people saw potential. Wario and Shulk- Both seem better than "B+". Captain Falcon Heavy, fast, powerful, has good combos, has attacks that move long distances, meteor smashes. Seems mostly flawless to me. Doctor Mario- DM is more powerful but slower right? He has worse recovery but isn't that work Dr. Tornado is for? I just don't get why he is SO MUCH lower than Mario (and why is Mario so high. Edit: There are probably more that I missed feel free to post your own if you want. Marth's frames or most of his moves have been nerfed to the point where he could not combo anyone anymore. In Brawl and Melee, his attacks were smooth and it allowed the user to transfer to one move to another without any lag. With that gone, he feels like a slow medium character rather than a good speed medium character making most of his attacks unsafe and easily punishable. While yes his attacks got buffed in some parts, it consequently made his attacks a lot more riskier to use. His grab range was also nerfed. WiiFit's range is laughable and that her forward smash can go through kirby and jigglypuff and not even hit them. While their tilts are fast, the range on them is still pretty awful and their smash attacks are practically unsafe to use as it has a lot of frames before you can recover from it. This makes him/her very unviable and this is coming from someone that mained her for a while. The range is compensated by the fact that their attacks and hit both sides and her side B and neutral air has a spike but it's very rare to pull it off. Samus's rolls are slow, her A+A isn't even a combo and her close quarter combat is a bit slow and she is very floaty. She has to rely on range attacks to do well but even those can be easily punished and ZSS just outclasses her. Her speed is just mediocre overall. Wario has really unsafe smash attacks, his down A hit box is pretty wonky, his 2 main tilt frames have long start up. While his recovery is amazing and can outright kill any enemy at 40% with his waft, he is a character that can easily get gimped and his kill potentials are very unsafe and this is from someone that uses him frequently. The only reason you see Warios do well in Japan is because they constantly run away to build waft and kill their opponents with that. Dr. Mario has very little options in offstage play and his recovery is downright near little mac tier. The tornado is not consistent enough to save him for his recovery. His weight pushes him down to much to make those recoveries. His slow speed makes it difficult for him to gimp opponents and has to rely on standard smash bros tactics to play well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 All of Samus's attacks are too laggy and she has to charge her charge beam on the ground. I really want her to be better and I hope she gets some big buffs in the next patch. I also find Kirby seriously underrated, I don't think people have done enough with SSB4 Kirby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zera Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Dr. Mario at a Glance +12% more damage -18% slower horizontal movement speeds -More knockback means worse combo ability -Shorter jumps -Second worst vertical recovery in the game -Much worse edgeguarding and offstage ability In competitive play, Mario's speed, combo ability, and superior edgeguarding make him the character of choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Dr. Mario at a Glance +12% more damage -18% slower horizontal movement speeds -More knockback means worse combo ability -Shorter jumps -Second worst vertical recovery in the game -Much worse edgeguarding and offstage ability In competitive play, Mario's speed, combo ability, and superior edgeguarding make him the character of choice. Yeesh... I didn't think the Doc had it THAT bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KirbySuperStar Posted July 4, 2015 Author Share Posted July 4, 2015 I crossed out all the one's that make sense to me now. However, it still seems like Shulk and Falcon could be higher, especially Shulk. I also find Kirby seriously underrated, I don't think people have done enough with SSB4 Kirby. As a Kirby main I agree 9001%, however, I think Kirby might make it to upper B at most because of his approach.Against character like mega man a villager the matchup become nearly impossible. Apparently he also stinks against Luigi though idk why. It also seems like King DDD is pretty good he's surprisingly fast with attacks like d-tilt and has projectiles, recovery, range, and power all great already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zera Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Captain Falcon is considered high tier by pretty much everyone. His only has two real flaws. 1. He has no projectile (other than HIMSELF) 2. He has below-average recovery, but his neutral game is so good that it's hard to get him offstage to begin with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadGame Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 What Tier list even? As far as I know, the pros haven't agreed on one yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zera Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 What Tier list even? As far as I know, the pros haven't agreed on one yet. Google Image search "Smash Bros 4 Tier List" and you'll see that Capt. Falcon is consistently considered a high tier character. Just because there isn't an official tier list doesn't mean tires don exits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euklyd Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 (edited) I crossed out all the one's that make sense to me now. However, it still seems like Shulk and Falcon could be higher, especially Shulk.probably the best video I've seen wrt Shulk's place in the metagame is[spoiler=this one]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfwMI284pyw Edited July 6, 2015 by Euklyd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KirbySuperStar Posted July 6, 2015 Author Share Posted July 6, 2015 probably the best video I've seen wrt Shulk's place in the metagame is[spoiler=this one]https://youtu.be/SfwMI284pyw Wow that clears up a lot about Shulk. Many thanks for the video! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HsienSol Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 Does anyone have the link to the tier list? i wanna see the tier ranks in general (ovo) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euklyd Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 Does anyone have the link to the tier list? i wanna see the tier ranks in general (ovo)There is none. Pro players occasionally make their own, and reddit comes out with its own "community voted tier list" which has exactly the problems it sounds like. But that's about it. (reddit list is found here - click the link at the top for the list itself, this is a link to the reddit thread) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A2ZOMG Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 (edited) Doc is super underrated and isn't really significantly worse than Mario when you factor the following things: *Mario literally can't kill you in the air without Shocking Cape. Doc's 3 frame Up-B and significantly stronger B-air however are great aerial KO moves. *Mario literally can't kill you for recovering low and hugging the stage as long as you tech stage spikes. Doc's D-air and Tornado are two of the better attacks in the game for killing low recoveries. *3 frame Up-B out of shield from Doc is THE BEST reversal in the game *Doc has a Jab cancel game that gives him frame advantage on hit and can combo into Up-B on some characters. Mario's is negative on hit. *Doc has a lower short hop, and can do rising B-airs against the entire cast, while Mario can really only hit tall characters with rising B-airs Honestly Mario is overrated like hell. Once people start realizing he can't really do anything to a ledge reset, and his options for dealing with platform camping are Mac tier bad (actually probably worse, Mac at least has Up-B to kill people), and then start abusing buffed swordsmen like Link and Marth to wall him out and edgeguard him, he's not that exceptional. Doc isn't great, but his advantages are by no means insignificant, and give him matchups where he works better. Edited July 10, 2015 by A2ZOMG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comet Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 doc combos off down throw with up air which can lead into a followup depending on what the other person does. mario's combos aren't that great. doc is also better for disrespecting people with the cape off stage because it's such a bad option that looks so cool. pills > fireballs too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamarsamar Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 *Mario literally can't kill you in the air without Shocking Cape. Ignoring Mario's specials, all excluding the fireball having KO potential in the right situation: I recall B-air being more than a solid KO move, F-air can technically KO on account of being a meteor, and his freaking head is invincible during that up-smash if you're foolish enough to try and approach him from above anyway. Conversely, Doc isn't so great at punishing low recoveries when you remember that he himself has that whole second-worst-vertical-recovery thing. I do have to ask, though: is the sheet's hitbox longer but narrower than the cape like in Melee? Because if so, that might be one redeeming quality . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A2ZOMG Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 (edited) Ignoring Mario's specials, all excluding the fireball having KO potential in the right situation: I recall B-air being more than a solid KO move, F-air can technically KO on account of being a meteor, and his freaking head is invincible during that up-smash if you're foolish enough to try and approach him from above anyway. Conversely, Doc isn't so great at punishing low recoveries when you remember that he himself has that whole second-worst-vertical-recovery thing. I do have to ask, though: is the sheet's hitbox longer but narrower than the cape like in Melee? Because if so, that might be one redeeming quality . . . Mario B-air doesn't kill except at like 150% with 100% Rage. It's a horrible KO move. Neither Mario or Doc should be landing F-air in a serious match, given thing is like what, frame 18? You can airdodge that on reaction. U-smash is a good move, but Mario cannot punish a ledge reset directly, nor can he reach a platform with his U-smash. Mario's ability to score KOs is extremely bad against anyone that actually knows the matchup, while Doc actually has an answer to kill people in almost every common negative state situation in the game. Doc's recovery is passable when you use Tornado to stall outside of the range of edgeguard attempts. More importantly, as I stated earlier, Tornado and D-air are actually incredibly good moves for killing low recoveries because they actually beat out most recovery specials easily, or even if they trade, the opponent risks getting semi-spiked to death. And furthermore they can be spaced in a way that prevents the opponent from wallteching them. And yes, Doc's sheet has a better vertical hitbox. Horizontal range is actually the same, so it's by far a superior edgeguard move, especially since not having the stalling property means you can better chase recoveries with it. Mario actually in contrast just can't do anything to a low recovery generally speaking except try to stage spike you with B-air. Edited July 11, 2015 by A2ZOMG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zera Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 And yes, Doc's sheet has a better vertical hitbox. Horizontal range is actually the same, so it's by far a superior edgeguard move, especially since not having the stalling property means you can better chase recoveries with it. http://www.ssbwiki.com/Dr._Mario_(SSB4)#Special_moves_2 According to the wiki, Dr. Mario's Super Sheet has less horizontal range than Mario's Cape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A2ZOMG Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 http://www.ssbwiki.com/Dr._Mario_(SSB4)#Special_moves_2 According to the wiki, Dr. Mario's Super Sheet has less horizontal range than Mario's Cape. I notice this on Shocking Sheet vs Shocking Cape, but not on default Sheet vs Cape. If it exists, the horizontal range difference is really tiny and basically doesn't matter, but rather the lack of stalling property and better vertical hitbox makes Super Sheet by far better for edgeguarding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiseki Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 Captain Falcon Heavy, fast, powerful, has good combos, has attacks that move long distances, meteor smashes. Seems mostly flawless to me. The main problem with Falcon is that if he screws up, he really is screwed. Badly. There is none. Pro players occasionally make their own, and reddit comes out with its own "community voted tier list" which has exactly the problems it sounds like. But that's about it. Aren't pro players usually biased towards things like "Give Marth back F-Air chains" and stuff like that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euklyd Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 Aren't pro players usually biased towards things like "Give Marth back F-Air chains" and stuff like that? I mean, yes. Because Marth kinda suuucks in this game. Not sure how that's "bias," though, or has anything to do with tier lists? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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