People

[Defeatist Elitist]

Interesting things here.

Now, for people saying "85% of people are ignorant", or whatever. Think about it a bit more. People are the way they are because society and other people shape and mold us all. We are profoundly malleable and changeable, which is a great asset.

Maybe first we should dive into good and evil. They don't exist. This is a simple enough concept, but one many people have trouble grasping. Morals are subjective. There is no single act that is always the "right" or "wrong" thing to do, and to be honest, how can you even tell what the "right" or "wrong" thing is? People thought up morals, mainly as a way to protect themselves and manipulate. Laws, contrary to popular opinion, are not based on morals. They are what is best for society. If murder was legal, everyone would kill people they didn't like, which would hardly be efficient or helpful for anyone. Likewise with theft, etc. Some laws are really stupid. Some aren't.

Biologically, humans could be very easily considered a superior species. No other current species has managed to become quite so prolific (except you could argue some insects, but that is a different thing). None have become as dominant, with members in every continent on the planet. We, unlike other animals managed to develop potent cognitive ability, to manipulate what is around us, and to communicate fully, as well as advance. Perhaps this explains then, our position in the world today.

So many things happen with people. In the end, who is it that can pass judgement on an entire species? The answer of course, is those capable of it, but I mean it in a more general manner.

[Nightmare]

instead of investing so much energy and time complaining about humanity's problems, you should do your part in making it a better place. it is my belief that even a tiny action, even one that seems insignificant, can have the potential to change someone's life. i see life as a long row of dominoes, one action brings a consequence, and that consequence in turn acts to cause another consequence, and the chain keeps going on and on. as such, you want to affect positively as many things as you possibly can. most of humanity's greatest accomplishments have been started by a single person, who decided that enough was enough, and that it was time to do something great. things don't just happen. it takes determination and a strong will to carry out. that's why those people who changed history are seen as great.

make an impact.

Thank you. I forgot to say this (what you said) in my first post. Of course, I believe I can change the world, because I'm human, and because I know my limits as a human...which don't exist.

Interesting things here.

Now, for people saying "85% of people are ignorant", or whatever. Think about it a bit more. People are the way they are because society and other people shape and mold us all. We are profoundly malleable and changeable, which is a great asset.

I didn't deny that, though. Humans are amazing; it's just that the ignorance of the people of today (which I did say is mostly caused because of the environments they live in) disallows them from acknowledging their potential. Which is what makes me sad about people, but it has also given me the incentive to change the world for the better.

[Wist]

That really means nothing, it's not like we invented those things. Most primates have them, and STILL species of primate become extinct.

This is a very interesting point. I do not know if you will agree with my proposition or not (please say either way, I do not seek to misrepresent your position), but I think humanity is most unique because humans change their environment to suit them instead of remaining in areas in which they are the most comfortable and well provided for. It is this which has best enabled humans to expand as they have, and to innovate as they have. Other factors are clearly involved but they denote no immensely special characteristics, humans use what they have to survive as does any other species. What I suggested above is what most differentiates humans (not necessarily making them superior, a plague, or whatever one sees in humanity as an entity) from other species.

Maybe first we should dive into good and evil. They don't exist. This is a simple enough concept, but one many people have trouble grasping. Morals are subjective. There is no single act that is always the "right" or "wrong" thing to do, and to be honest, how can you even tell what the "right" or "wrong" thing is? People thought up morals, mainly as a way to protect themselves and manipulate. Laws, contrary to popular opinion, are not based on morals. They are what is best for society. If murder was legal, everyone would kill people they didn't like, which would hardly be efficient or helpful for anyone. Likewise with theft, etc. Some laws are really stupid. Some aren't

In class I once tried to argue the idea that good and evil do not exist, even as perspectives, because someone with relatively complete knowledge of a conflict is able to recognize and appreciate the catalyst for action on both sides. I'm not sure if that exactly matches your position, but I am pleased to have discovered a person who is steadfast in his or her belief that good and evil do not exist. The concepts of good and evil can (and are) used to justify a variety of behavior, but they are not valid when all related things are considered. Edited September 25, 2008 by Wist

[Defeatist Elitist]

This is a very interesting point. I do not know if you will agree with my proposition or not (please say either way, I do not seek to misrepresent your position), but I think humanity is most unique because humans change their environment to suit them instead of remaining in areas in which they are the most comfortable and well provided for. It is this which has best enabled humans to expand as they have, and to innovate as they have. Other factors are clearly involved but they denote no immensely special characteristics, humans use what they have to survive as does any other species. What I suggested above is what most differentiates humans (not necessarily making them superior, a plague, or whatever one sees in humanity as an entity) from other species.

In class I once tried to argue the idea that good and evil do not exist, even as perspectives, because someone with relatively complete knowledge of a conflict is able to recognize and appreciate the catalyst for action on both sides. I'm not sure if that exactly matches your position, but I am pleased to have discovered a person who is steadfast in his or her belief that good and evil do not exist. The concepts of good and evil can (and are) used to justify a variety of behavior, but they are not valid when all related things are considered.

Yes. that would seem to be a fairly accurate statement. Good and evil do not exist in a real situation. That is too say, the average person is going to believe that the people they're with, or the people on their "side", are good, and vice-versa. However, logically, looking at a position, we can only see what actually has happened. Obviously, in cases such as the holocaust the argument was semi skewed. Hitler was not a particularly fair person, and had little respect for human life. He is not a person I would want around. "Evil" however is a term that simply loosely describes this type of thing. Basically, "Evil", and "Good" are words people would use to describe things and/or people that they personally found appalling or something similar.

In essence, evil and good, like most things, are terms, and are also almost entirely subjective.

[Sevensins]

No, it's not a joke. You don't know what people are like until you get down to their basest form. The problem with your logic, Anna, is that you don't believe that I think myself better than they are.

Perhaps you grew up seeing the best of people, but I grew up close with murderers, rapists, abusers. I've seen what people do when they're scared, seen the atrocities a 'normal sane human' would commit when he's desperate. I stole to survive because my parents weren't there, stole from people who had it better but did nothing to help those who didn't. Saying that my generalization is just that, based on nothing, is saying that YOUR generalization of the opposite, is exactly the same.

Morals are another tool for societal control, as were the ten commandments, laws. 'God' has nothing to do with us. I've done plenty of horrible things to get to where I am now, and what do I have to show for it? I'm still living. As for different people growing up different ways and learning different things: We all have the capacity to do what we want to a certain extent. Our limits are based in morals, for one...

Hitler did what he did to raise his country. He took risks and did horrible things, sure. He knew he did horrible things, though. He didn't try to justify it. He knew he was an evil man, and knew this wasn't going to end well, but he did it anyway. That's resolve, that's seeing the truth of the matter. Stepping over people to get to what you want is the only way to get back up.

Edited September 25, 2008 by Sevensins

[Defeatist Elitist]

No, it's not a joke. You don't know what people are like until you get down to their basest form. The problem with your logic, Anna, is that you don't believe that I think myself better than they are.

Perhaps you grew up seeing the best of people, but I grew up close with murderers, rapists, abusers. I've seen what people do when they're scared, seen the atrocities a 'normal sane human' would commit when he's desperate. I stole to survive because my parents weren't there, stole from people who had it better but did nothing to help those who didn't. Saying that my generalization is just that, based on nothing, is saying that YOUR generalization of the opposite, is exactly the same.

Morals are another tool for societal control, as were the ten commandments, laws. 'God' has nothing to do with us. I've done plenty of horrible things to get to where I am now, and what do I have to show for it? I'm still living. As for different people growing up different ways and learning different things: We all have the capacity to do what we want to a certain extent. Our limits are based in morals, for one...

Hitler did what he did to raise his country. He took risks and did horrible things, sure. He knew he did horrible things, though. He didn't try to justify it. He knew he was an evil man, and knew this wasn't going to end well, but he did it anyway. That's resolve, that's seeing the truth of the matter. Stepping over people to get to what you want is the only way to get back up.

No, Hitler was insane. :P He could have raised Germany much more easily if he hadn't unbalanced his entire Economy by removing the people who where running it and replacing them with random others. It would have been far more efficient to do many other things.

Plus, his obsession with the Occult was just WAY overboard.

I'm still not totally convinced you aren't trolling though, so I don't have a totally serious response. ^_^

[Sevensins]

Not trolling at all. What he did was make his country able to rise again. It might not have been pretty, but it worked. Look at Germany, now, and tell me if it really would be that way if money was still being used as building blocks because it was so useless. Granted, after WW2, it kinda got broken down again, but it rose that much faster. The fixing from within didn't turn out *too* well, but it wasn't as bad as it could've been.

That said, no trolling, everything I say about what I believe is the truth as I see it. Believe it or not, some people just don't like everyone else.

[Liz]

No, it's not a joke. You don't know what people are like until you get down to their basest form. The problem with your logic, Anna, is that you don't believe that I think myself better than they are.

Perhaps you grew up seeing the best of people, but I grew up close with murderers, rapists, abusers. I've seen what people do when they're scared, seen the atrocities a 'normal sane human' would commit when he's desperate. I stole to survive because my parents weren't there, stole from people who had it better but did nothing to help those who didn't. Saying that my generalization is just that, based on nothing, is saying that YOUR generalization of the opposite, is exactly the same.

Morals are another tool for societal control, as were the ten commandments, laws. 'God' has nothing to do with us. I've done plenty of horrible things to get to where I am now, and what do I have to show for it? I'm still living. As for different people growing up different ways and learning different things: We all have the capacity to do what we want to a certain extent. Our limits are based in morals, for one...

i haven't had a terrible life. i haven't had to fight for my survival. in fact, I've pretty much lived a sheltered life, sheltered from those dangers. as such, i can't have such an understanding about the darker aspects of human nature. i haven't experienced them, they are unknown to me.

all i can do is try to understand why people do the things they do. perhaps my optimism doesn't allow me to fully understand them, but i do the best i can with what i know.

but i ask you, Sevensins, you who has experienced the darker aspects of human nature. is it not a worthy goal to try to change this? is it not a worthy goal to prevent someone from experiencing what you lived through? perhaps it won't happen overnight, perhaps it will never happen, but i find that this is a goal we should all be striving for.

in order to cause change, the person must be aware of these wrongs. they must understand that not everything is perfect, that humans have flaws. they must have the will to cause the change, and work for it constantly. If enough people would keep this in mind, the world could change for the better.

and this is the main point of my post. IMHO, those who claim that humankind is worthless without trying to do anything about it are fools. they have the potential to cause change, but they don't do anything. they just let society rot away, and then use it to justify their claims. that is my main complaint.

[Sevensins]

Who said I haven't tried? What can I do? The people who can aren't willing, and the people who are willing can't. And it's because they've lived a sheltered life that they aren't willing, because they, even if they may care, or seem to care, lack the understanding of the suffering they need to fix.

I have the will to cause change, but how would I change it? I know what I need to change, but without power, we are meaningless. I can only complain and do nothing, though not for lack of trying. It's not that I think they are worthless, but that they, in not using their potential to help even themsleves, they cause humanity to rot, and thus the cycle continues forever.

[Defeatist Elitist]

Not trolling at all. What he did was make his country able to rise again. It might not have been pretty, but it worked. Look at Germany, now, and tell me if it really would be that way if money was still being used as building blocks because it was so useless. Granted, after WW2, it kinda got broken down again, but it rose that much faster. The fixing from within didn't turn out *too* well, but it wasn't as bad as it could've been.

That said, no trolling, everything I say about what I believe is the truth as I see it. Believe it or not, some people just don't like everyone else.

Honestly? No trolling? Not even a smidgen?

Hitler could have done quite a bit more for Germany, he did some things that helped, but overall he actually probably hindered them.

To your other points.

Humans are animals regardless. Animals rape, murder, and do everything like that in order to raise themselves to dominance. They do what is required in order for their survival and the passing on of their genes. Humans just expand on that. But some people try to hold back, they try to not do things when those actions would cause harm to another person, even if that action si clearly in their own best interest. So, really, I don't see where the whole "Lawl, humans are evil" idea comes from.

Besides, as I said earlier, good and evil are more opinion than anything.

[canas is back]

Yes. that would seem to be a fairly accurate statement. Good and evil do not exist in a real situation. That is too say, the average person is going to believe that the people they're with, or the people on their "side", are good, and vice-versa. However, logically, looking at a position, we can only see what actually has happened. Obviously, in cases such as the holocaust the argument was semi skewed. Hitler was not a particularly fair person, and had little respect for human life. He is not a person I would want around. "Evil" however is a term that simply loosely describes this type of thing. Basically, "Evil", and "Good" are words people would use to describe things and/or people that they personally found appalling or something similar.

In essence, evil and good, like most things, are terms, and are also almost entirely subjective.

I think that good and evil are not subjective, but that what is truly good and truly evil is unale to be deciphered by an imperfect human, saying that I also belive that there is a god wheras I know revan does not.

[Sevensins]

Honestly? No trolling? Not even a smidgen?

Hitler could have done quite a bit more for Germany, he did some things that helped, but overall he actually probably hindered them.

I can agree with that.

It's not so much that humanity is "evil;" I'm saying that humanity is base, pretty much that you just said after this quote.

[Defeatist Elitist]

I can agree with that.

It's not so much that humanity is "evil;" I'm saying that humanity is base, pretty much that you just said after this quote.

Alright, then we're probably in agreement.

[Liz]

Who said I haven't tried? What can I do? The people who can aren't willing, and the people who are willing can't. And it's because they've lived a sheltered life that they aren't willing, because they, even if they may care, or seem to care, lack the understanding of the suffering they need to fix.

I have the will to cause change, but how would I change it? I know what I need to change, but without power, we are meaningless. I can only complain and do nothing, though not for lack of trying. It's not that I think they are worthless, but that they, in not using their potential to help even themsleves, they cause humanity to rot, and thus the cycle continues forever.

let me tell you, not everyone is like that. just because i live a sheltered life doesn't mean that i overlook all of the suffering that happens every day. i'm sure i'm not the only one.

yes, i'm aware that there are people who will overlook the problems in the world. i agree with you that even though they have the ability, they don't do anything about it.

as i've said before, it won't happen overnight. in fact, it will be a battle that will probably never end. but we have to continue fighting, even if it seems like we're fighting a losing battle.

i'm with you 100%. all i can say is to take action. even if it seems insignificant, you can at least make the life of a person a bit better, which is a worthy goal in itself.

[Sevensins]

let me tell you, not everyone is like that. just because i live a sheltered life doesn't mean that i overlook all of the suffering that happens every day. i'm sure i'm not the only one.

yes, i'm aware that there are people who will overlook the problems in the world. i agree with you that even though they have the ability, they don't do anything about it.

as i've said before, it won't happen overnight. in fact, it will be a battle that will probably never end. but we have to continue fighting, even if it seems like we're fighting a losing battle.

i'm with you 100%. all i can say is to take action. even if it seems insignificant, you can at least make the life of a person a bit better, which is a worthy goal in itself.

If it didn't matter to me, I would have just given up a long time ago. I think the only reason I'm sitll in this is because of guilt, perhaps even that I'm searching for absolution in saving or changing lives, to make up for the ones I ruined before I had a choice.

[Liz]

If it didn't matter to me, I would have just given up a long time ago. I think the only reason I'm sitll in this is because of guilt, perhaps even that I'm searching for absolution in saving or changing lives, to make up for the ones I ruined before I had a choice.

...don't give up.

remember that there ARE people out there trying to make a difference, and that you're not alone in this.

[Doom103]

That really means nothing, it's not like we invented those things. Most primates have them, and STILL species of primate become extinct.

We still have the best form of communication

No, Hitler was insane. :P He could have raised Germany much more easily if he hadn't unbalanced his entire Economy by removing the people who where running it and replacing them with random others. It would have been far more efficient to do many other things.

Plus, his obsession with the Occult was just WAY overboard.

I'm still not totally convinced you aren't trolling though, so I don't have a totally serious response. ^_^

False, completely false

Edited September 25, 2008 by Doom103

[Cynthia]

We still have the best form of communication

False, completely false

So we can communicate better, that really doesn't make us better than anyone.

[Doom103]

So we can communicate better, that really doesn't make us better than anyone.

Course it does. that's what sepreates us from everything else

[Defeatist Elitist]

...don't give up.

remember that there ARE people out there trying to make a difference, and that you're not alone in this.

I exaggerated slightly, but I believe the point still stands. Hitler could have done far more things that would have benefited Germany a lot more. Hitler was not a good example of a leader who raised his nation up. When a nation begins to invade, as Germany did, they seem to suddenly begin booming economically, however this is an illusion. The fact is, Germany's economy only appeared strong, because of the spoils of war. This is why, as Germany finally stopped expanding, they simply went downhill before losing the war. Germany didn't have a very strong economy, they only managed to progress through the resources they had obtained through the invasion of other nations.

[Leonri]

Course it does. that's what sepreates us from everything else

We're not "better" just different. Completely equiped to survive and dominate in the modern world. Like most modern animals.

We've taken a different and perhaps more successful route than the others, but still fundamentally animals.

Of course, Cynthia it's important to realise that though we're not better, we are unique. No other species has used intelligence as a survival stratgey so successfully. We have moved to the top of the food chain, and changed the face of the planet more than almmost any other species.

[Nightmare]

That's what I find so amazing about humans...they have incredible mental power, and even with everything we have now, it's still untapped, and very much so.

While most animals use brute strength to conquer others, humans have put to use their minds and conquered the whole world.

@Leonri: Remove that "almost" and your sentence will be 100% correct. ;)

Edited September 25, 2008 by Nightmare

[Cynthia]

We're not "better" just different. Completely equiped to survive and dominate in the modern world. Like most modern animals.

We've taken a different and perhaps more successful route than the others, but still fundamentally animals.

Of course, Cynthia it's important to realise that though we're not better, we are unique. No other species has used intelligence as a survival stratgey so successfully. We have moved to the top of the food chain, and changed the face of the planet more than almmost any other species.

I never said we weren't unique, as all species are unique.

[Fireman]

"The greatest mystery to man is man himself..."

Humans...it would take simply forever to go over every last notion of thought that goes on in a human's mind as well as why we are what we are and why we do what we do.

"If you prick us do we not bleed? If you tickle us do we not laugh? If you poison us do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? "~Shakespeare

[Doom103]

We're not "better" just different. Completely equiped to survive and dominate in the modern world. Like most modern animals.

We've taken a different and perhaps more successful route than the others, but still fundamentally animals.

Of course, Cynthia it's important to realise that though we're not better, we are unique. No other species has used intelligence as a survival stratgey so successfully. We have moved to the top of the food chain, and changed the face of the planet more than almmost any other species.

Gee that sounds to me like were the best