Player worshipping

[Thane]

Hello everyone.

Lately, I've been thinking more and more about games that seem to worship the player and how it seemingly has become more common. What I mean by that is, to a greater extent than necessary, the protagonist - more often than not a customizable self-insert - is treated and considered the best thing since sliced bread, and that numerous characters and events seem to tailored to suit them.

Now don't get me wrong, this is hardly a new phenomenon; there are plenty of games where you're the chosen one and only you can stop the great evil, bang all the sexually attractive people that follow you around and do janitorial duty around town. However, this seems to have become more heavy-handed in recent years. I think a good example of how one can be the chosen one without having everything tailored to suit the player is The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind, where people are not afraid to tell you that you're a waste of oxygen - it's also worth mentioning that there are a plethora of guilds, groups and what have you, so working for one will increase your standing with them and their allies, and reduce your standing with others, and you can only join a few, meaning that you can never make everybody love you.

Compare this to a game like Persona 4 (an utterly fantastic game but several elements are ludicrous) where you move into a small town in the middle of nowhere, get special powers, become the leader of a gang of supernatural teenagers who chase down a serial killer which the police is unable to find, solve family issues and other difficult topics just by listening to the people of the town and being able to date every single girl of your peers AT ONCE without any repercussions (unless you play Golden, in which one post game event forces you to choose who to spend Valentine's with, but like I said, the game is over at that point).

So why am I bringing this up here? Well, I was of course curious to hear what you think about Fire Emblem: Fates. You have two families literally fighting over Kamui. Hinoka has dedicated her entire life to trying to save you, Elise keeps saying how much she loves you, Leo is jealous of the attention you get and Camilla loves you to a creepy extent. Aside from that, you also have personal maids and a butler who are loyal to a fault, a childhood friend who risked execution to go on a picnic with you and several supports between other characters deal almost exclusively with Kamui. The protagonist also gets chosen by a holy sword, has the amazing power of turning into a dragon and the list just goes on.

There are more spoiler examples to give as well, but I think I've made my point, and spoilers would just keep some people away from giving their opinion on the matter.

I suppose my question to you is: do you think there is too much player worshipping going on in Fates? Does it bother you in any way? Personally, I find it rather jarring. It's not something that ruins a game by any means, and like I said it's hardly anything new, and you have to be a big deal to move the story forward in a game like this, but Kamui never really earns all that love and attention, and it feels as if though the worshipping is being taken to an extreme because it appeals to a lot of people.

Edited July 8, 2015 by Thane

[Respite&Nepenthe]

I was thinking the same thing. A good deal of characters'

main personality trait is being obsessed with th avatar, to make the player feel like just a special, little snowflake.

It's fun, I guess. But it might get tedious.

Robin was bland, but - in my opinion - was a better character, and everyone didn't act obsessed with him her (just Tharja). Unless, of course, Kamui is changed in the localization. I don't have context for much of what I've heard about this.

[Espinosa]

I think it's always been like that. Now you just get to customise your lead character in all sorts of ways and give them a name, but I don't think anyone necessarily forces you to identify yourself with MU. The realism has always been lacking and not only in video games.

[Iron Griffin]

I love Persona 4 but man despite being the Hero your character often stands there like a mime only able to say a single sentence every once in awhile.

[Nave]

Perhaps they made everyone worship you because they were afraid that people would despise the ones that don't like you. Especially since marriage is in the game. If half the casts hates you then that means less marriage options for people who don't like these characters simply because they hate you.

So far as I know, Takumi is the only character who doesn't begin to kiss your feet as soon as he sees you. He acts a bit realistic and isn't afraid to say that he isn't very fond of you...coincidentally he is also pretty hated and gets things like #BlameTakumi.

[Sunwoo]

First off, I'm going to start off by saying that I don't read Japanese so my only understanding of the story is what I'm getting from people who did understand the story.

Second of all, I think the whole "player worshipping" is a bit of a power trip/fantasy for the person playing the game. I think you are more likely to find people who enjoy being "worshipped" in a video game than people who don't want their avatar character to be loved by everyone. This want for people to worship them goes beyond video games and is especially prevalent in (poorly written) fanfiction, so I'm going to say that it's a "human" thing to want to be worshipped.

That said, I am of the opinion that characters who do not immediately trust you or like you, and perhaps never actually like or trust you are definitely interesting and I wish more of them were around! It's like real life -- no matter how hard you try, not everyone will love you. No matter how hard you try, not everyone will get along with you, and not everyone is going to be super close to you. But I also think that most people don't want to hear that kind of stuff. Some people are more concerned with getting their power trip in a game or a fanfic or whatever than good characterization. I suppose that can't be helped.

Fates seems to play it up in the form of your families. Both Hoshido and Nohr are fighting over you while neither side seems to give a fuck about Aqua, who is in the same situation except reverse as Kamui. The premise is that you have to pick one family over the other, hurting the one that you didn't pick. And yet, in the end Kamui is always forgiven no matter what happened and who died. It … does not feel realistic, doubly so when you pick Nohr over Hoshido. The Hoshido siblings haven't seen Kamui in years, how can they forgive this … stranger who waltzed back in their lives only to tear their hearts back out? The Nohr siblings, at least, had that bond growing up so it feels a bit more believable that while they are angry at first they ultimately can't hate Kamui.

Going beyond Fates, though, it's ultimately up to the people who are making the game and writing the story whether they want to cater to people who have a need to be worshipped, or if they want believable characters who have believable reactions towards the characters around them.

(Also, I happen to like Takumi for not trusting Kamui immediately and think that was pretty smart of him. What the hell, Ryouma, Hinoka, and Sakura?)

Edited July 8, 2015 by Sunwoo

[Frelia]

Perhaps they made everyone worship you because they were afraid that people would despise the ones that don't like you. Especially since marriage is in the game. If half the casts hates you then that means less marriage options for people who don't like these characters simply because they hate you.

So far as I know, Takumi is the only character who doesn't begin to kiss your feet as soon as he sees you. He acts a bit realistic and isn't afraid to say that he isn't very fond of you...coincidentally he is also pretty hated and gets things like #BlameTakumi.

Yep. I have noticed that Takumi does get quite a bit of hate. I love that he doesn't kiss Kamui's feet when he first sees them and he quite honestly has good reasons to especially if you pick the Nohr route. It's realistic and that's what I really like about Takumi. I really wish there were more characters like him. The Blame Takumi meme can be funny depending on how it is done, but yeah it can be really mean especially after seeing what happens to him on the Nohr route (poor Takumi).

Edited July 8, 2015 by Frelia

[The DanMan]

Yeah I have noticed that Takumi does get quite a bit of hate. I love that he doesn't kiss Kamui's feet when he first sees them and he quite honestly has good reasons to especially if you pick the Nohr route. It's realistic and that's what I really like about Takumi. I really wish there were more characters like him. In some ways the Blame Takumi meme can be funny depending on how it is done, but yeah it can be really mean a good amount of the time and I am quite honestly not a fan of it especially after watching some videos showing what happens on the Nohr route.

"Blame Takumi" was meant to be a joke; I don't believe any of the "hate" for him is genuine, and he's hands-down my favorite Hoshidan (for reasons Sunwoo outlined above).

And I HATE that part on the Nohr route. What the f*** do you mean, you forgive Kamui? You have every right to hate them for what they've done.

[Sunwoo]

In a way, Takumi being one of the only (if not the only) character who doesn't trust Kamui may have hurt him more than if more of the playable characters were distrustful of Kamui. What's the fan base going to do, declare hate for a significant portion of the playable cast? Since Takumi's basically the only one who dislikes and distrusts Kamui initially, he becomes a scapegoat for, well, practically anything he does that people don't like.

Now, imagine if about 1/4-1/2 of the playable characters also didn't trust Kamui. That's an awful lot of characters to dislike! In that vein, it becomes hard to "scapegoat" that many people for disliking Kamui. People would have to find other, more individual things to dislike about them.

But again, this goes back to the whole "player worship/power trip fantasy" thing. A lot of people playing the game don't really want realism. They want to be worshipped. And the developers probably know that makes money, so they'll continue to do it as long as it earns them money.

[Tamarsamar]

Let's not forget the protagonist's default name here is Kamui.

That aside, I dunno. Philosophically this is a subject that extends far beyond Fates. On a smaller scale, something like the Shin Megami Tensei series arms you with the entire world's worth of mythology and religion to let you decide the fate of the world. Beyond something isolated like that, though, there is an entire genre of games known as god games.

As for how this relates to Fates, I guess what I'm trying to say is that it should be weighed on its own merits rather than dismissed entirely simply because "player worship." Remember that player agency is a crucial element of any game, and that a lot of the criticism of this game's writing actually stems from the fact that Kamui steals that agency out from under the player's nose by taking (sometimes very) disagreeable actions that the player themselves would not have wanted to take.

[Tamanoir]

I think it's always been like that. Now you just get to customise your lead character in all sorts of ways and give them a name, but I don't think anyone necessarily forces you to identify yourself with MU. The realism has always been lacking and not only in video games.

I never really considered the MU to be myself (same for Robin) (and for P4, I've seen the anime first, so I can't really consider hm myself as well...)

But Dragon Quest VII and Tactics Ogre are some of my favourite games, so I think it shows my point of view pretty well.

I really appreciated than, in DQVII, you weren't the most impressive character (at least as first.). Kiefer looks more like a true hero.

The first part of the game is you following Kiefer around, with Maribel disowning you at every occasion.

DQV was also good, with you being the child of a Hero (Pankraz. The first part of the game is you following your father around.) and the father of a Hero.

I find it far more satisfying to start low and earn other character's trusts by your actions, instead of just because you came directly out of Jupiter's ass... er thigh..

[ReaperGuardian]

I find it far more satisfying to start low and earn other character's trusts by your actions, instead of just because you came directly out of Jupiter's ass... er thigh..

Pretty much this, in my opinion. Why should you trust someone immediatly, after he/ she had to choose between his/ her family by blood or by whom he/ she grew up?

Can you fully trust him / her? What if he/ she is a spy amg

As Sunwoo said, Takumi's behavior is actually very realistic. I haven't played the Hoshido path yet, but I think I will like him.

Am I getting tired of all the worshipping? Not exactly tired, but I would really prefer a more realistic approach.

[Blue Sun]

I don't get this whole player-worship and (un)realistic-behavior debate and I could argue that that's not actually the case or that some people are actually arguing about what's reasonable/sensible instead of what's realistic but then that could very likely turn into an argument about individual perceptions and I don't want that. That's what this topic is about anyways, someone's perception of player-worship and how (un)realistic-behaviors are and Fates apparently slighted them based on that, and there are some people who either (dis)agree or don't have a strong inclination toward either opinion.

Edited July 8, 2015 by BlueSunStudios

[Thane]

First off, I'm going to start off by saying that I don't read Japanese so my only understanding of the story is what I'm getting from people who did understand the story.

Second of all, I think the whole "player worshipping" is a bit of a power trip/fantasy for the person playing the game. I think you are more likely to find people who enjoy being "worshipped" in a video game than people who don't want their avatar character to be loved by everyone. This want for people to worship them goes beyond video games and is especially prevalent in (poorly written) fanfiction, so I'm going to say that it's a "human" thing to want to be worshipped.

That said, I am of the opinion that characters who do not immediately trust you or like you, and perhaps never actually like or trust you are definitely interesting and I wish more of them were around! It's like real life -- no matter how hard you try, not everyone will love you. No matter how hard you try, not everyone will get along with you, and not everyone is going to be super close to you. But I also think that most people don't want to hear that kind of stuff. Some people are more concerned with getting their power trip in a game or a fanfic or whatever than good characterization. I suppose that can't be helped.

Fates seems to play it up in the form of your families. Both Hoshido and Nohr are fighting over you while neither side seems to give a fuck about Aqua, who is in the same situation except reverse as Kamui. The premise is that you have to pick one family over the other, hurting the one that you didn't pick. And yet, in the end Kamui is always forgiven no matter what happened and who died. It … does not feel realistic, doubly so when you pick Nohr over Hoshido. The Hoshido siblings haven't seen Kamui in years, how can they forgive this … stranger who waltzed back in their lives only to tear their hearts back out? The Nohr siblings, at least, had that bond growing up so it feels a bit more believable that while they are angry at first they ultimately can't hate Kamui.

Going beyond Fates, though, it's ultimately up to the people who are making the game and writing the story whether they want to cater to people who have a need to be worshipped, or if they want believable characters who have believable reactions towards the characters around them.

(Also, I happen to like Takumi for not trusting Kamui immediately and think that was pretty smart of him. What the hell, Ryouma, Hinoka, and Sakura?)

Yeah, and that's what irks me. Kamui always seems to be forgiven for his actions no matter what he does, and that unconditional love feels so out of place. Imagine picking Nohr when Hinoka has trained all her life to "save" Kamui, and then "oh well whatever, he's still family". I don't think anyone would be able to react like that in real life if they sacrificed a large part of their life for someone who just threw it all away.

Takumi is definitely my favorite sibling (aside from a lot of bad supports) for acting like a normal human being would. What I don't like is how he's portrayed as an asshole for not instantly trusting Kamui not only by a lot of players, but by characters in the game as well.

[ReaperGuardian]

Yeah, and that's what irks me. Kamui always seems to be forgiven for his actions no matter what he does, and that unconditional love feels so out of place. Imagine picking Nohr when Hinoka has trained all her life to "save" Kamui, and then "oh well whatever, he's still family". I don't think anyone would be able to react like that in real life if they sacrificed a large part of their life for someone who just threw it all away.

Takumi is definitely my favorite sibling (aside from a lot of bad supports) for acting like a normal human being would. What I don't like is how he's portrayed as an asshole for not instantly trusting Kamui not only by a lot of players, but by characters in the game as well.

Wait wow, the bolded part is a joke right? If characters in-game are mad at Takumi for not instantly trusting Kamui, then that would be the pinnacle of sillyness. Poor Takumi... the only one who has common sense regarding the trusting part, actually gets punished for it. Let's just all hold hands and sing merry songs in Fates because no-one wishes to kill each other, right? /sarcastic rant over

[Frelia]

Yeah, and that's what irks me. Kamui always seems to be forgiven for his actions no matter what he does, and that unconditional love feels so out of place. Imagine picking Nohr when Hinoka has trained all her life to "save" Kamui, and then "oh well whatever, he's still family". I don't think anyone would be able to react like that in real life if they sacrificed a large part of their life for someone who just threw it all away.

Takumi is definitely my favorite sibling (aside from a lot of bad supports) for acting like a normal human being would. What I don't like is how he's portrayed as an asshole for not instantly trusting Kamui not only by a lot of players, but by characters in the game as well.

Yes this is exactly why I love the fact that Takumi doesn't trust Kamui immediately. It's really disappointing and silly, but not surprising that the game portrays him as a jerk for it. Poor Takumi. He has a lot of reasons for not trusting Kamui immediately especially if they pick Nohr. With Hinoka and Ryouma though they really miss their sibling and after not being able to see them for years their emotional attachment towards Kamui are especially strong. Due to that some of their judgement is not always the best. Edited July 8, 2015 by Frelia

[nocturnal YL]

The other Hoshidan royals did say Takumi worries too much. Have Kamui choose Nohr for better dramatic effect.

But it's not just him. Reflet was generally well-liked. Ike was outright a Stu (though part of the reason is that the games focused on him too much).

A better example of a Fire Emblem protagonist that isn't universally-liked would be Chris. There are quite a few characters that took a while to warm up to Chris, and even by support level 3, they still kept their distance. And Chris is arguably a better person than Reflet or Kamui.

Actually, all that Kamui love would have made sense if this is a Radiant Dawn-like story and Kamui is at Ike's position -- everyone fights, but no one really wants to and they just wanted to find a chance to strike back at the orchestrator, while Ike kept yelling at the other team to surrender.

As far as other games go, I'd cite Golden Sun as an example. The protagonists unleased alchemy to save the world, but the rest of the world got different versions of the story and some hated their action.

Edited July 8, 2015 by nocturnal YL

[Thor Odinson]

To be entirely fair to Ryouma and Hinoka, they were old enough when Kamui was kidnapped and remembers him very fondly, with Kamui's kidnapping being Hinoka's drive to git gud. The emotional attachment they have to Kamui (there was also that bit about Kamui's room not being touched at all iirc, something something grief), who was very dear to them, overrode the more logical parts of their judgement. I'm not saying they made the best judgement, especially given a Nohr route choice, but given their history, it made sense for their characters to act that way. People don't always make the best judgements, after all. Takumi, however, is younger and has no such attachments to Kamui whatsoever, and combined with his base personality, it also makes sense for him to act the way he is. Sakura's just young and naive, I guess

[spoiler=3rd route] and hell lobster does chase you around for like 11 chapters he got pretty pissed off

[Lawlzor96]

We could use fewer protagonists from non-royal or well-renowned groups. Like a sewer rat that works from the bottom to the top, like Drake.

[Frelia]

To be entirely fair to Ryouma and Hinoka, they were old enough when Kamui was kidnapped and remembers him very fondly, with Kamui's kidnapping being Hinoka's drive to git gud. The emotional attachment they have to Kamui (there was also that bit about Kamui's room not being touched at all iirc, something something grief), who was very dear to them, overrode the more logical parts of their judgement. I'm not saying they made the best judgement, especially given a Nohr route choice, but given their history, it made sense for their characters to act that way. People don't always make the best judgements, after all. Takumi, however, is younger and has no such attachments to Kamui whatsoever, and combined with his base personality, it also makes sense for him to act the way he is. Sakura's just young and naive, I guess

[spoiler=3rd route] and hell lobster does chase you around for like 11 chapters he got pretty pissed off

Thank you. Considering how Ryouma and Hinoka were old enough to remember Kamui before they got kidnapped they most certainly feel a lot of pain about Kamui. I can't imagine how they feel especially in the Nohr path. With Sakura she is young and while she never knew Kamui until later she really wanted to see her other sibling. And with Takumi his personality and having no emotional attachments to Kamui are most certainly big factors into why he doesn't trust Kamui immediately. When it comes to the hero worshipping I am getting sick of it and is a big reason why I began to dread seeing IntSys include self insert characters. Edited July 8, 2015 by Frelia

[B.Leu]

It doesn't help that the hero are generally the ideal shitty anime hero cliche of doom, 'kind', guilible, naive, stupid and transparent. There must be a problem is Japan if they like that. Seriously.

And it doesn't help that it generally hurt the other characters characterization-wise, as well as simple coherence.

Is Atlus' games, I always found that the player worshipping made more or less sense, because of the nintendo hard nature of those games as well as making sense story-wise, In Strange Journey, you are an experimented soldier, in EO, you are generally the guild who defeat all those powerful monsters, etc, and even then, they don't take it as far as ass-licking. It's tame. It's more like the dev who recognized you as beating a hard game and that's it.

Persona 4 takes took worship cake , and take it wayyyy too far, for reason that are obvious. And that you already said.

Kamui has a special sword, can transform into a dragon, have a magic castle. M'okay why ? And why does no one ever comment on it ?

I have no problem with Kamui being loved by his sibblings, and he is the hero, he has to be loved by some characters, I have a problem with him being considered a good, awesome person when he is simply stupid, naive, and self-righteous, and when he don't have to suffer the consequences of his actions, other than stupid angsting, and that's annoying.

It's not so much that I'm tired of player worshipping, I'm tired of stupid player worshipping that don't make sense and hurt the writing altogether.

Edited July 8, 2015 by B.Leu

[Hatsuoki]

I have never liked the self insert characters in FE unless you count 7 as having one. I immediately liked Takumi *because* he was realistic in his reaction to you and like others have said,

I don't see why he has to forgive you in the end?

Edited July 8, 2015 by Hatsuoki

[Irysa]

Protagonists are generally given an amount of leeway in terms of being "special" in some regards when it comes to most fictional narratives, so this isn't really inherantly wrong, but to make it effective and not just "wish fufillment garbage" one has to see how the protagonist utilises their abilities/benefits in ways that reflect on them as people, and how they deal with situations that challenge their predispositions. Just like anyone else really. It's the reiterative "with great power comes great responsibility" mantra, but it still holds true regardless.

What separates traditional SMT and stuff like P4 in this is that you're given a range of situations where things are somewhat grey. Law and Chaos are not "Good and Bad". They contrast more in philisophical outlooks of how the world should be organised.* We all have different views and experiences in that respect, and in those games, you can't make peace with everyone because of your differences. A game like P4 is one where it attempts to trick the player into thinking they have agency. You're given "freedom" to pursue particular interests, but despite the fact you can bond with just about everyone, you can't really "fail" a Social Link (besides a single specific one) through how you interact with NPCs. Many of them are really clear cut, people have an issue and they get over it, and all your interactions really do is affect the speed of which you can trigger the next batch of meaningful dialogue. There's sort of a failstate in that some NPCs are simply not available past certain points of the game, but I think you get the point I'm trying to make; your character's existance and role in the world is being accomodated for, rather than you accomodating your character for the world. The only counterpoint to this is in how "other people have schedules" and don't act on your beck and call, but that's more like a spreadsheet/planning mechanic than it has anything to do with the narrative.

So to repeat, the difference is in the order of accomodation. Whether a world fits itself to the protagonist and what they do, rather than protagonist trying to fit within the world. Note that in the latter, the protagonist may very well be trying to shape the world with their actions, but that's not the same thing.

Considering Kamui is "The Lord" in this game, it probably fits better in theory than it did in New Mystery or Awakening. Instead of being a secondary protagonist that somewhat feels like they are stealing the spotlight, there's the chance to exclusively focus on Kamui as the main character and how they deal with situations, and have some degree of meaningful development. Seeing as I haven't played the game (and don't plan to either), I can't speak for as to if this is used effectively, but I certainly don't have any faith in assuming as such. Having highborn status and special powers don't bother me so much as the fact that Kamui neccessarily has to be able to communicate and get along with everyone, and even if a NPC ally starts out disliking Kamui, they're going to get wooed one way or the other due to the nature of the game and it's supports. The world and it's characters have been made to fit the player, not the other way around. This gets even more apparent when you examine the prevelance of superficial identifiers across the cast, because as I've said before, they're there to make sure you pick the ones you think you'll like best. Earlier games weren't perfect in this respect either, but support pools weren't universal, which was to their benefit (in more ways than one). Obviously there's also the groping minigame but I think that hardly even needs to be addressed.

There is the whole "choose who you ally with" aspect, which I do still find intruiging to an extent, but the way some characters follow you no matter what and the fact that the third path is basically the "solve everything" route cheapens it significantly.

*Tellius FE approaches the subject, but it's not really handled the same. I'd say that's because FE (at least what I've played) tends to have a positive outlook, where putting differences aside and achieving unity is the answer. The more "realistic" conclusion of eternal division is a lot more of a downer. But at least it approached the subject, rather than something like FE13 which only very lightly alludes to it. The main script is almost entirely black and white in it's representations of people.

Edited July 8, 2015 by Irysa

[Thane]

*Znip*

Tag the spoilers.

I agree though. He has even less of a reason to forgive Kamui after all that had transpired since you destroy his army and unambiguously kill his retainers. He didn't like you before, so why would he forgive you after that? It feels like a cheap way of not making the player feel too bad over what they have just done.

I've said it numerous times before, but Kamui pretends he's going to execute her after their battle for no reason, and she forgives him without ever bringing that up again. It's a very minor thing, but one that bothers me nonetheless.

Edited July 8, 2015 by Thane

[NekoKnight]

It's pretty bad at times. I know they are trying to establish some connections in a short amount of time but even the opening scene has you waking up to see HALF the castle staff at your bedside. Waking up is a big deal when it's Kamui-sama! After that Kamui gets to meet all his siblings who dote on him (particularly his sisters) as though he's the most precious child in the world. There is some justification for this because it's Kamui's big day to leave the castle. You could handwave it if the player worship stopped there but it doesn't.

Later when the conflict escalates, Kamui becomes the center of attention again. I can see his family being heartbroken by his choice but treating it with more weight than the entirety of the war is a little absurd. It's a big thing for Kamui but I don't see why it should be such a strong motivation for the other main characters to fight. Special snowflake dragon chosen by a holy sword or not, I don't think Kamui should be the effective leader of the army when one, he's practically a foreigner (Hoshido route) and two, he has two older siblings (and a younger sibling with more combat experience). To the game's credit, they do seem to try to subvert the universal love for Kamui with your little brothers but even that fades away.

Let's not even get into the My Castle stuff for what that says about how unconditionally everyone in his army loves him...

Does the player worship make me dislike the story or character? I wouldn't say it makes it super unlikable but I feel there was wasted potential. Kamui is put into a horrible position because of his family situation but his character could have been even more tragic if he wasn't so loved by nearly everyone in the story. Imagine if the attention for Kamui in the story was about securing him as a tool and it was just a few individuals who genuinely loved him for who he is?

How is Aqua treated in the Nohr route? I feel like she was given an appropriate amount of attention in Hoshido (ie not too much).