Fixing Fates story issues (spoilers)

[Ryo]

A simple (though a little cliche) way to change Iago/Macbeth is to make him the (secret) follower of Hydra. He would influence Garon according to his master's scheme. Meanwhile, Garon doesn't directly communicate with Hydra, and is just a misled king with (initially) good wills. Of course, it would be much more interesting if one shaped Iago into having political agendas of his own without having to rely on the Hydra plot.

[NekoKnight]

A simple (though a little cliche) way to change Iago/Macbeth is to make him the (secret) follower of Hydra. He would influence Garon according to his master's scheme. Meanwhile, Garon doesn't directly communicate with Hydra, and is just a misled king with (initially) good wills. Of course, it would be much more interesting if one shaped Iago into having political agendas of his own without having to rely on the Hydra plot.

That feels similar to the Lyon and Reeve relationship in Sacred Stones. Reeve served the Demon King so it can't be said that he was misleading possessed!Lyon but he was scheming to destroy the world, which goes behind the agenda of Grado's invasion of Magvel.

[Damosel]

Welp, any canonical basing for my headcanon of nobility/royalty in Hoshido being mongomous while Nohr is polygamous has been smashed to bits with a new translation:

Man it’s hard to get dates and times in this game. And what does exist is baffling. For instance, Sakura says in her A support with Kamui:

私は…Kamui兄様が暗夜王国に
連れ去られた頃、まだ生まれたばかりで…▾
When you were abducted by Nohr, I had just been born…

And Sumeragi dies during that incident. Although I can’t pin down where, I feel like it’s implied somewhere that Mikoto ascends directly after his death.

I had previously thought that Sumeragi took Mikoto after Ikona’s death, but this can’t be true.

We know that all of the Hoshido sibs were born from Sumeragi and Ikona, as dictated with complete certainty in dragon prophecies in the Museum. We also know that Sumeragi took Mikoto as his wife for as least long enough to make people think that Kamui was born from their union, and Kamui at the time of their abduction was old enough to actually form memories, making them at least 2~4ish. Kamui’s supposed to be older than Takumi anyway, so probably more on the 4 side. But then Ikona was around to give birth to Sakura AFTER Mikoto must’ve married Sumeragi/brought Kamui…?

I’m pretty sure evidence points to the conclusion that polygamy was also alive and well on the Hoshido side–Sumeragi was just less easily impressed by women than Garon. I also suspect that Ikona died either in childbirth or while accompanying her husband. Wonder if there’s any script attesting to which it was.

source

What really steams my broccoli over this revelation is the fact that IK character's are such special snowflakes. I mean- Go as a refugee to a new kingdom? Marry the king and become queen! Who cares if they already have a wife that might've filled that position.

Both Ektrina and Ikona might’ve gotten screwed out of their positions as queen by these newcomers? I feel so bad for these named but ignored characters, I mean WTH.

Appearently only Hinoka mentions Ikona in passing (without naming her) in the “You’re not my mom!” rebellion towards Mikoto mentioned in her Kamui supports. I can't blame the Ektrina Faction for hating Shenmei, although the game tells us basically nothing about whether Ektrina herself was set aside or died or what- if I remember right Camilla mentions Ektrina preventing Nohr from trying to retrieve Aqua after she was kidnapped on the Nohr Route, but Elise's nursemaid says Ektrina herself was dead by the time Shenmei showed up.

Timelines, what are they?

Edited August 29, 2015 by Damosel

[Ryo]

Yeah, I'm also especially bugged by the fact that both Shenmei and Mikoto were able to become concubines in two kingdoms with little to no efforts. And I might have missed this, but why the hell did Shenmei go to Nohr by the way? You'd think that it would make more sense for the sisters to stay together in a place that is more suitable for... idk... living? Especially when they had to drag their young children around with them.

[Taka-kun]

We know that all of the Hoshido sibs were born from Sumeragi and Ikona, as dictated with complete certainty in dragon prophecies in the Museum. We also know that Sumeragi took Mikoto as his wife for as least long enough to make people think that Kamui was born from their union, and Kamui at the time of their abduction was old enough to actually form memories, making them at least 2~4ish. Kamui’s supposed to be older than Takumi anyway, so probably more on the 4 side. But then Ikona was around to give birth to Sakura AFTER Mikoto must’ve married Sumeragi/brought Kamui…?

I want to point out her that this may not be true. The only times Kamui has ever mentioned to his/her memories of their time before Nohr was a fleeting memory of loving Sumeragi as his/her own father (sibling S-rank) and the shock memory of seeing Sumeragi arrowed. The assumption that he/she is the child of Sumeragi was told by the Hoshidan siblings. Kamui didn't even remember a single thing about spending time with their siblings and it could be easily explained to Hinoka, Takumi and Sakura that Kamui was born out of wedlock (Ryoma knew the truth) should they ever question why Kamui is the third child. For all we know, child!Kamui might have been told that their father was "far away" (technically true) and then got the chance to meet Sumeragi, introduced as their father.

[JupiterKnight]

Even the point that Nohr is a harsher land goes out the window when it turns out Ryoma can have supplies sent to Nohr, showing that apparently all the Nohrians had to was ask.

No it's worse than that. Ryoma offers food without being asked after learning how most people starve. Apparently not a single assassin ever sent into Nohr has seen how the country isn't as rich or fertile as Hoshido. Or how it took walking in some secret underground city in Nohr that Nohr royals don't even know about to learn this obvious fact.

@Ryo we don't know what happened after they fled Touma. For all we know they ended up in separate places while traveling together. Then she met Garon and for the first time in his life he met a woman who wasn't a terrible human being.

Edited August 29, 2015 by JupiterKnight

[Yari]

Is it just me or is this game trying to explain everything but failing miserably at it? Because the more I find out the more confusing it gets.

[Thane]

Is it just me or is this game trying to explain everything but failing miserably at it? Because the more I find out the more confusing it gets.

That's one of the many problems, yes. The game keeps trying to throw stuff at the player in an attempt to make something stick, but it never does. Just look at how they - retroactively - tried adding depth to Touma and Hydra in the Invisible Story DLC: instead of doing what it set out to do, it just made the story even more convoluted; the Awakening kids now come across as gigantic morons and Lilith is apparently Kamui's sister even though it has zero bearing on the main story.

It wouldn't surprise me if they tried something a bit more traditional next time, since I believe there's some pressure of Fire Emblem 15 being the magnum opus of the series, and having a fragmented story won't cut it.

Edited August 29, 2015 by Thane

[JupiterKnight]

I actually like the Invisible History DLC for showing Hydra.

I will not deny that the way they added the Awakening Kids was badly handled however.

[Thane]

I actually like the Invisible History DLC for showing Hydra.

I will not deny that the way they added the Awakening Kids was badly handled however.

Well, to each their own. I thought it was handled with about as much subtlety as major cities around the world celebrating New Year's Eve and written about as well as your average fanfic where random elements were thrown into the story for no adequately explored reason whatsoever. Then again, I hate everything having to do with Hydra because I'm of the opinion that he's the absolutely worst kind of villain the game could've ever included in a game with this premise.

[Sunwoo]

Yeah, I saw that post about Sakura's A-support line. At this point, I'm just giving up on anything the game has already established and replacing everything with whatever the hell actually does make sense and what I think is good. The game can't keep itself and its own lore straight so why should I bother trying to salvage it? I'll just take the basis and rewrite the entire thing from the ground.

[JupiterKnight]

Well, to each their own. I thought it was handled with about as much subtlety as major cities around the world celebrating New Year's Eve and written about as well as your average fanfic where random elements were thrown into the story for no adequately explored reason whatsoever. Then again, I hate everything having to do with Hydra because I'm of the opinion that he's the absolutely worst kind of villain the game could've ever included in a game with this premise.

Grima and the Grimleal will always be worse to me to be honest. I absolutely loathe Grima.

[Damosel]

Grima's the worst- in that, unlike the Lopt cult with Loptyr, there's literally no upside to serving Grima. Enemies? Zombies. Worshipers? Zombies. Take over the world? MOAR ZOMBIES!

As much as I find "mad dragon gods" being the reason for war dull, at least Hydra seems to be more toying with humanity than wanting to plunge everything into the appocolypse for no particular reason.

Yeah, I'm also especially bugged by the fact that both Shenmei and Mikoto were able to become concubines in two kingdoms with little to no efforts. And I might have missed this, but why the hell did Shenmei go to Nohr by the way? You'd think that it would make more sense for the sisters to stay together in a place that is more suitable for... idk... living? Especially when they had to drag their young children around with them.

I have no idea if it's ever explicitly stated why they go sepereate directions. I mean, could be trying to evade Hydra's notice- thus the splitting up in case on dies the other will survive. But if that's the case becoming queen is not exactly in-cognito or subtle. Could also be that when the mom ran from Touma it just happened that they popped out on different sides of the Chasm and had no idea if the other survived. That's all speculation though, I'm guessing the canon answer is "Who knows, who cares".

As for the young children... okay looking things over, since it's not explicitly stated Aqua and Kamui could've already been born OR Shenmei and Mikoto could've just been pregnant when fleeing. Again, I don't think there's really anything explicitly said on this within the game's text. So pick the option you like!

I want to point out her that this may not be true. The only times Kamui has ever mentioned to his/her memories of their time before Nohr was a fleeting memory of loving Sumeragi as his/her own father (sibling S-rank) and the shock memory of seeing Sumeragi arrowed. The assumption that he/she is the child of Sumeragi was told by the Hoshidan siblings. Kamui didn't even remember a single thing about spending time with their siblings and it could be easily explained to Hinoka, Takumi and Sakura that Kamui was born out of wedlock (Ryoma knew the truth) should they ever question why Kamui is the third child. For all we know, child!Kamui might have been told that their father was "far away" (technically true) and then got the chance to meet Sumeragi, introduced as their father.

This is true, it's just Ryouma and the retainers saying this rather than random townsfolk so Kamui being a tot when brought in would work out fine in-timeline. Though still means Mikoto had to be there while Ikona was still alive, bleh.

As for the Nohr situation...

No it's worse than that. Ryoma offers food without being asked after learning how most people starve. Apparently not a single assassin ever sent into Nohr has seen how the country isn't as rich or fertile as Hoshido. Or how it took walking in some secret underground city in Nohr that Nohr royals don't even know about to learn this obvious fact.

The only Nohr royal unaware of it is the one traveling with the Hoshido army- Kamui, and they're famously sheltered and clueless. Cause I believe Elise says that it was Camilla who showed her the underground district? I may be wrong.

Also now I'm wondering if this place is like the legit oldest and run down sector of the city- or if it's like the hobo camps that set up in the underground tunnels in Las Vegas, where sure a lot of people build makeshift homes and live there, but ain't official since one hard rain and it'll all be washed away.

Before all the spoilers came out and we'd only heard bits and pieces along with the premise, I'd assumed the Hoshido/Nohr war was primarily over territory and resources- with Nohr as the aggressor and Hoshido as on the defense. I'd pondered if said war might've started because Nohr wanted to trade for food and Hoshido said "no" or had stupid high tarrifs like the Thracia Manster situation. I am so sad that instead everyone's clueless and going in blind, appearently moles and insider intel aren't a thing in this war (for Hoshido at least).

Yeah, I saw that post about Sakura's A-support line. At this point, I'm just giving up on anything the game has already established and replacing everything with whatever the hell actually does make sense and what I think is good. The game can't keep itself and its own lore straight so why should I bother trying to salvage it? I'll just take the basis and rewrite the entire thing from the ground.

This is precisely the reason I decided to make my Fic series AU- that way when the inevitable missing facts or characterization coflicts or English translations come out, I can just wave my hands and point to the AU label. Though this lore meta and timeline is seriously a mess, I'm really glad I'm not losing my mind trying to get canon right.

Edit: Also are we every given a reason why this Hoshido/Nohr war started? I mean, I'd assumed it was long and ongoing...but I don't think generational war or pervious kings at war beyond Sumeragi/Garon have ever been mentioned. If it's just "Hydra did it"... I'd rather Sumeragi's assassition be the spark. Though even then, Garon why?

(I'm totally going with long-standing generational war for my fic)

Edited August 29, 2015 by Damosel

[Thane]

Grima and the Grimleal will always be worse to me to be honest. I absolutely loathe Grima.

Once again, to each their own. Grima and the Grimleal are painfully underdeveloped, but it's still built up and Grima is always the main objective; Hydra's mere presence in the game invalidates two thirds of the Fates' story, has about as little background, development and depth as Grima and is basically there to let Kamui bang everyone in the game. All the information you get about him is basically in one exposition dump from Azura in the beginning of the third path and that's it. Hell, the fact that Kamui is his offspring is skimmed over with no character really seeming to care shows how unimportant he is to everyone; Robin being Grima is a much bigger deal and even then it wasn't sufficiently explored.

That said, even if Hydra were to be written well, the role of a world-ending dragon in a character driven game in a premise like this doesn't make sense. The roles of the nations and the families have to take the backseat to defeat the mastermind of the entire conflict, and since someone else is responsible for the war as opposed to contrasting ideologies, a bloody history, a desperate attempt for Nohr to get more resources or anything that could've made the reasons for fighting more complex, the entire human element of the story is ripped straight of the game and substituted with a generic goal of defeating a generic bad guy.

Edited August 29, 2015 by Thane

[Sunwoo]

This is precisely the reason I decided to make my Fic series AU- that way when the inevitable missing facts or characterization coflicts or English translations come out, I can just wave my hands and point to the AU label. Though this lore meta and timeline is seriously a mess, I'm really glad I'm not losing my mind trying to get canon right.

Yeah, like … at this point I don't think there's anything I can do about the story as it exists. So everything I write is going to be some variation of an AU that may not even be related to each other. Maybe in one universe Kamui is the Hoshido siblings' full sibling. Maybe in another universe he's only half-siblings with Takumi and Sakura. Maybe in another universe I do something else, I don't know. This game gives you a lot of AU potentials, but its actual story is kinda shite.

Also, I didn't realize it until you said it that the IK is basically a special snowflake kingdom. Why does it even exist it only fucks over everything else.

Edit: Also are we every given a reason why this Hoshido/Nohr war started? I mean, I'd assumed it was long and ongoing...but I don't think generational war or pervious kings at war beyond Sumeragi/Garon have ever been mentioned. If it's just "Hydra did it"... I'd rather Sumeragi's assassition be the spark. Though even they, Garon why?

(I'm totally going with long-standing generational war for my fic)

As far as I know? No, there's no reason. Do we even know for sure if the war was continuous since Sumeragi was killed to current events in the game? It's amazing how little the game seems to tell us about important details such as this. I just … need to redo Hoshido, redo Nohr, redo everything. Dammit, game.

[JupiterKnight]

Once again, to each their own. Grima and the Grimleal are painfully underdeveloped, but it's still built up and Grima is always the main objective; Hydra's mere presence in the game invalidates two thirds of the Fates' story, has about as little background, development and depth as Grima and is basically there to let Kamui bang everyone in the game. All the information you get about him is basically in one exposition dump from Azura in the beginning of the third path and that's it. Hell, the fact that Kamui is his offspring is skimmed over with no character really seeming to care shows how unimportant he is to everyone; Robin being Grima is a much bigger deal and even then it wasn't sufficiently explored.

That said, even if Hydra were to be written well, the role of a world-ending dragon in a character driven game in a premise like this doesn't make sense. The roles of the nations and the families have to take the backseat to defeat the mastermind of the entire conflict, and since someone else is responsible for the war as opposed to contrasting ideologies, a bloody history, a desperate attempt for Nohr to get more resources or anything that could've made the reasons for fighting more complex, the entire human element of the story is ripped straight of the game and substituted with a generic goal of defeating a generic bad guy.

Except Invisible History does show you who he was before the madness and a big part of Hydra as the INVISIBLE DRAGON is that he stays invisible. He even admits he had tried to deal with his power and had lived in harmony with the people before his urges and degeneration began to distort his mental state. Being inconspicuous is related to being invisible not just from physical sight but the mind as well. He even has things set up for a fall guy like Gooron and a magical curse that doesn't let you talk about fight club. Not to mention there are plenty of hints in both routes of a mysterious force acting behind the scenes. Starting right from Mikoto's assassination, with the implications the plan was to kill Kamui and Mikoto since they carried dragonslaying weapons..

No one besides Mikoto, Lilith, and the Awakening kids even know Kamui is the child of Hydra and Hydra wanted them to keep it that way. A vow of silence on their origins.

The real bs is how powerful this curse is that it can make heart Hydra dissipate as well even in a different world, when he has the power to transform an entire world from the past.

Edit: Also I'm bugged that Gunter is just left in the Invisible Kingdom on Hoshido. I want to say this might lead to future DLC, but knowing IS writers I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't.

Edited August 30, 2015 by JupiterKnight

[NekoKnight]

So what kind of "internal reform" would you guys like to see in a rewritten Nohr route? I plan on keeping Kamui's "help with invasion but reduce the number of casualties" philosophy up to the conquest of Hoshido but after that, I need to decide how Kamui plans on fixing the mess. Open rebellion is a decent direction but I think it would be a bit lazy to write the first half as invading Hoshido and the next half as turning back and "invading" Nohr. Should there be a focus of recruiting/uniting dissatisfied groups? Should it be clandestinely killing off baby-eaters like Ganz and Macbeth? This would cover around 9 chapters so I can't put too much on Kamui's plate.

Another question would be of Garon's development. He's the final antagonist but I'd like a believable descent from kind father who makes hard choices for his country to someone whom even his own children agree must be disposed of.

[JupiterKnight]

They should deal with the rebel factions as well, but likely after the war since a common enemy gives rise to a momentary truce. Except Chevalier, they outright join Hoshido and get wiped out during the war.

[NekoKnight]

They should deal with the rebel factions as well, but likely after the war since a common enemy gives rise to a momentary truce. Except Chevalier, they outright join Hoshido and get wiped out during the war.

I was actually thinking of them being Switzerland until Kamui decides to rebel (the backstory is that they sold out Sumeragi in return for not being attack by Garon). I figure that Crimson would side with you if you had plans or overthrowing Garon.

[JupiterKnight]

They always side with Hoshido in the story so I figure they might as well be the only one to join Hoshido. Likely in exchange for something like their nation becoming subservient to it and getting all those resources to help their own land prosper.

[Alazen]

Like I pointed out in the last page:

1. Conquest's rebellion is dependent on magical conveniences (Aqua's crystal ball, Fake Garon) to finish.

2. Conquest is fixated on not vilifing Kamui. Among other all other problems, everybody in Nohr's leadership who doesn't side with Kamui is portrayed as much less sympathetic.

3. Conquest's rebellion doesn't have the Chapters to handle it properly.

Anybody trying to rewrite Nohr's rebellion should address those issues.

[Thane]

Except Invisible History does show you who he was before the madness and a big part of Hydra as the INVISIBLE DRAGON is that he stays invisible. He even admits he had tried to deal with his power and had lived in harmony with the people before his urges and degeneration began to distort his mental state. Being inconspicuous is related to being invisible not just from physical sight but the mind as well. He even has things set up for a fall guy like Gooron and a magical curse that doesn't let you talk about fight club. Not to mention there are plenty of hints in both routes of a mysterious force acting behind the scenes. Starting right from Mikoto's assassination, with the implications the plan was to kill Kamui and Mikoto since they carried dragonslaying weapons..

No one besides Mikoto, Lilith, and the Awakening kids even know Kamui is the child of Hydra and Hydra wanted them to keep it that way. A vow of silence on their origins.

The real bs is how powerful this curse is that it can make heart Hydra dissipate as well even in a different world, when he has the power to transform an entire world from the past.

Edit: Also I'm bugged that Gunter is just left in the Invisible Kingdom on Hoshido. I want to say this might lead to future DLC, but knowing IS writers I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't.

I'm not sure I see your point. Hydra is an Invisible Dragon so he tries to be invisible, live in harmony with folks and then gets hit by the crazy bat à la Blizzard for no reason and...that somehow makes him a good villain? That somehow makes his role in the game better? I'm sorry, I have genuinely no idea what you're trying to say.

[Alazen]

Der Langrissser did the "Otherworldly power secretly behind the warmongering empire" better.

Also, I'm sure that Thane is saying that Hydra is poorly integrated into the narrative. From the "twist" on Kamui's parentage (blatantly an excuse to let Kamui marry both sets of siblings), to Fake Garon (trivializing the issue of getting all the Nohr siblings to rebel against their father), to how overall he comes off as a shoehorned excuse to have a Special Edition and DLC Only Golden Ending that has the two warring kingdoms team-up against the Ultimate Mastermind Behind It All. His current form in the narrative brings nothing to warrant his presence.

Edited August 30, 2015 by Alazen

[Taka-kun]

This is true, it's just Ryouma and the retainers saying this rather than random townsfolk so Kamui being a tot when brought in would work out fine in-timeline. Though still means Mikoto had to be there while Ikona was still alive, bleh.

Before all the spoilers came out and we'd only heard bits and pieces along with the premise, I'd assumed the Hoshido/Nohr war was primarily over territory and resources- with Nohr as the aggressor and Hoshido as on the defense. I'd pondered if said war might've started because Nohr wanted to trade for food and Hoshido said "no" or had stupid high tarrifs like the Thracia Manster situation. I am so sad that instead everyone's clueless and going in blind, appearently moles and insider intel aren't a thing in this war (for Hoshido at least).

This is precisely the reason I decided to make my Fic series AU- that way when the inevitable missing facts or characterization coflicts or English translations come out, I can just wave my hands and point to the AU label. Though this lore meta and timeline is seriously a mess, I'm really glad I'm not losing my mind trying to get canon right.

Edit: Also are we every given a reason why this Hoshido/Nohr war started? I mean, I'd assumed it was long and ongoing...but I don't think generational war or pervious kings at war beyond Sumeragi/Garon have ever been mentioned. If it's just "Hydra did it"... I'd rather Sumeragi's assassition be the spark. Though even then, Garon why?

(I'm totally going with long-standing generational war for my fic)

Yeah, the part of Mikoto being in Hoshido at the same time as Ikona feels so damn weird, but it's only implied via Sakura's A-rank support in which she states that she was "just born" (according to this translation) and that can interpreted in many number of ways. Like she was born the day before, or the month before, or the year before. Like everything else, this is pretty ambigious.

The war must have lasted for a really long time, since back in the first trailer, a portrait behind Garon, watching Aqua dance, shows Nohr, in a complete different (and less evil) motif on their armor, fighting Hoshidans. So there has to have been at least one war before the game's events. The reason is never stated, but I interpret as Nohr having this conquest economy like the Roman Empire. Maybe Nohr just went up to Hoshido and said: "Join us or die" and naturally, Hoshido refused, leading to years of animosity, another reason why Hoshido might have been inclined to not help Nohr at all, even if they asked. I can still indulge in my logic since I haven't played the game yet.

So what kind of "internal reform" would you guys like to see in a rewritten Nohr route? I plan on keeping Kamui's "help with invasion but reduce the number of casualties" philosophy up to the conquest of Hoshido but after that, I need to decide how Kamui plans on fixing the mess. Open rebellion is a decent direction but I think it would be a bit lazy to write the first half as invading Hoshido and the next half as turning back and "invading" Nohr. Should there be a focus of recruiting/uniting dissatisfied groups? Should it be clandestinely killing off baby-eaters like Ganz and Macbeth? This would cover around 9 chapters so I can't put too much on Kamui's plate.

Another question would be of Garon's development. He's the final antagonist but I'd like a believable descent from kind father who makes hard choices for his country to someone whom even his own children agree must be disposed of.

What I would like to see, is Kamui uniting dissatisfied group in Nohr during the conquest of Hoshido. To justify why Kamui would lead an army, have Kamui lead an army to pacify rebellious groups, like the Ice Tribe, while Marx is leading the invasion force, with Kamui linking up later with auxuliary troops. Since the groups have better relations with Kamui than with the Nohrian throne, they would be more inclined to follow Kamui in a rebellion in Nohr in the second half (actually justifying worshipping of Kamui since he actually did something).

About Garon: Simple, make everyone else in Nohr assholes and opportunists as well. Garon may have started as an idealistic man like Marx when he was young, but then grew disillusioned and cyncial as time passed by (not uncommon in fables and history). There is also ongoing debate (which I do not intend to start here) whether certain countries need a tyrannical dictator to keep it together else it will be torn apart by warlords and military groups, so you could justify why Garon is needed in Nohr.

[JupiterKnight]

I'm not sure I see your point. Hydra is an Invisible Dragon so he tries to be invisible, live in harmony with folks and then gets hit by the crazy bat à la Blizzard for no reason and...that somehow makes him a good villain? That somehow makes his role in the game better? I'm sorry, I have genuinely no idea what you're trying to say.

Dragon degeneration has been a thing long before Fates. It's not like Blizzards make someone crazy to justify a boss fight deal. The backstory details we have gotten even points out the dragons in general were suffering from the urges so they discarded their body and became spirits to avoid that fate. Hydra tried to deal with the problem for ages since he was likely the dragon that couldn't become a spirit.

Plus your comment that all the info we got is just from Azura is wrong since he does talk about his past to an extent as well in Invisible History, and we know he at least has some influence on the backstory as the giver of Dragon's Vein and being both the Light/Dark Dragon. We got way more than Grima who just kinda existed was defeated and had an evil cult that was in no way subtle about how evil they are and spends most of his talk about how you can't fight fate or how powerful Grima supposedly is.

He was even benevolent enough to write the poems that foretell his defeat/death and turn it into a song. One that is used to weaken himself in the process.

@Alazen: Oh yeah I can agree on that to an extent. I don't like the whole dating both families deal or Garon being a Slime Monster, but I do understand from the perspective of Hydra's actions why he had a minion take control of an entire nation and that Gooron could exist as the perfect fall guy so no one tries to come after him. I would still prefer seeing the real Garon over that and have Ganze/Iago be Dark Dragon worshipers who think he's speaking to them.

Or maybe even Mikoto being evil.

@Taka-kun: Azura does talk about in her IK support with Kamui about how Nohr never had it as good as Hoshido does, so the people naturally developed envy of them for having it so much better than they do. It's not surprising if a previous war did involve Nohr trying to conquer Hoshido for its resources.

Edited August 30, 2015 by JupiterKnight