Fixing Fates story issues (spoilers)

[NekoKnight]

Maybe that would be considered "boring" by some, but wouldn't it be refreshing if at least one of the siblings had a pretty good life? It might be good for contrast if Aqua was overall a pretty satisfied individual compared to Kamui.

[JupiterKnight]

While Sakura does have her own issues, part of why Elise is so happy is that her siblings effectively raised her and gave her the good life. She also spent the most time with Kamui as I recall. She also lacks the issues they have since the Concubine feuds ended before she was born. At most she might have issue that her mother never loved her as she only called out Garon's name on her deathbed when she was younger.

Also Camilla likely has issues with her mother like the brothers, as she admits in Zero's support she's not even sure if her mother truly loved her when she told Garon she loved Camilla. She thinks it might have even been a ploy to become his favorite.

[Time the Crestfallen]

Well it's like I said, the little sisters 'dead weight' problems are very minor and get nipped in the bud.

Besides, Azura (who was bullied in Nohr and discriminated against by Hoshidans as well as having her mother die when she's around 9-10, so I don't really see her being 'satisfied') and Kamui do contrast each other in terms of character development; Azura shakes the cynicism and once again learns to believe that the world can change for the better while Kamui becomes more grounded (well actually, because he never talks about his issues, Kamui winds up going way to far in the opposite direction and his existing issues become worse i.e. from often melancholic, but still upbeat idealist with some self-esteem issues to a clinically depressed knight in sour armour who hates himself, a change that the others don't learn about until after he dies).

@JupiterKnight I always figured that she had a birth sibling who got killed during the murders and she overcompensates by being smothering towards the ones who survived

Edited October 9, 2015 by Phillius

[NekoKnight]

@JupiterKnight I always figured that she had a birth sibling who got killed during the murders and she overcompensates by being smothering towards the ones who survived

That's what I'm doing. In my story, Camilla's older brother died in a duel with another mistress' child, and by avenging him, Camilla caught the eye of Garon. Camilla is fond of her remaining siblings, especially Kamui, whom she feels is special because as an outsider, he doesn't need to get involved in the power struggles in Nohr.

[JupiterKnight]

Zero being Zero tells her that she's overbearing on Kamui because she wants to feel good about herself, seeing her doting on Kamui as something one does to a pet so that they love you.

Of course he tries to take it back the next rank.

[Time the Crestfallen]

That's what I'm doing. In my story, Camilla's older brother died in a duel with another mistress' child, and by avenging him, Camilla caught the eye of Garon. Camilla is fond of her remaining siblings, especially Kamui, whom she feels is special because as an outsider, he doesn't need to get involved in the power struggles in Nohr.

I see, so her 'focus' (I'm assuming you tone it down) is born a little out of her not wanting him to be affected by Nohrian politics?

[NekoKnight]

I see, so her 'focus' (I'm assuming you tone it down) is born a little out of her not wanting him to be affected by Nohrian politics?

In the story, Camilla has killed several half-siblings in the power struggles, so she has anxieties over bonding with people she might have to kill in the future. Kamui, not being entitled to anything, was the only person she felt she could grow attached to. That's why Camilla starts to have a mental breakdown when you choose Hoshido because her emotional crutch seemingly betrayed her.

Marx is a legitimate child of Garon's wife, Leon was "officialized" for his magical talents and Elise was born near the end of the 'waifu wars' so Camilla isn't (as) concerned about the prospect of fighting them.

Camilla is one of my favorite characters to work with (although all the siblings have interesting traits that play off each other) because her "player-pandering" traits are just a veil for her personal tragedies. Similar issues are alluded to in her canon supports, but I feel too much of her character is consumed by her Kamui obsession.

I've also given her a talent in negotiations and espionage. With her wide range of abilities, in some ways she is even more talented than Marx.

Edited October 9, 2015 by NekoKnight

[Time the Crestfallen]

In the story, Camilla has killed several half-siblings in the power struggles, so she has anxieties over bonding with people she might have to kill in the future. Kamui, not being entitled to anything, was the only person she felt she could grow attached to. That's why Camilla starts to have a mental breakdown when you choose Hoshido because her emotional crutch seemingly betrayed her.

Marx is a legitimate child of Garon's wife, Leon was "officialized" for his magical talents and Elise was born near the end of the 'waifu wars' so Camilla isn't (as) concerned about the prospect of fighting them.

Camilla is one of my favorite characters to work with (although all the siblings have interesting traits that play off each other) because her "player-pandering" traits are just a veil for her personal tragedies. Similar issues are alluded to in her canon supports, but I feel too much of her character is consumed by her Kamui obsession.

I've also given her a talent in negotiations and espionage. With her wide range of abilities, in some ways she is even more talented than Marx.

Woah, and I thought I was being dark. Well, I am, but still... that's well done, cudos to you Chosen Undead.

Anyway, to elaborate on the little sisters, Elise feels like dead weight because, as a side effect of Garon's 'Waifu Wars', the other siblings go out of their way to keep her safe and look after her on the battlefield (Camilla in particular refuses to let Elise out of her sight) to the point where she feels like she's being coddled and wants to be able to fight so that the others don't have to look after her.

Sakura gets a case of butterflies in her stomach every time she steps onto the battlefield and 'chokes' at the thought of killing someone, but gets over it when Hinoka points out only idiots or psychopaths aren't nervous about fighting a battle and tells her that she went through the same thing when it came to taking a life and states that she doesn't want Sakura to ever have to kill someone

Ryoma's problem could be worrying about inheriting his father's legacy as he doesn't get the same respect from the other Nobles that his father got, as many still consider him 'too young'. Not sure about his coping mechanism though, probably the same as Xander.

I'm still not sure about Hinoka though, probably something about not wanting to lose another sibling, but we'll see.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Phillius

[NekoKnight]

Woah, and I thought I was being dark. Well, I am, but still... that's well done, cudos to you Chosen Undead.

And now you know why she drinks.

The theme of the Nohrian children (as an smaller sample of Nohrian society as a whole), is that only the strongest, smartest and most ruthless get ahead (this is encouraged to get the most elite soldiers and leaders possible). Elise is an anomoly because the timing of her birth allowed her to be soft in comparison to the other siblings who got where they are with their talents.

It might be an interesting contrast if Nohr were a ruthless meritocracy (although being of noble birth helps) and Hoshido practiced a lot of nepotism which leads to corruption and some military incompetency.

Woah, and I thought I was being dark. Well, I am, but still... that's well done, cudos to you Chosen Undead.

Anyway, to elaborate on the little sisters, Elise feels like dead weight because, as a side effect of Garon's 'Waifu Wars', the other siblings go out of their way to keep her safe and look after her on the battlefield (Camilla in particular refuses to let Elise out of her sight) to the point where she feels like she's being coddled and wants to be able to fight so that the others don't have to look after her.

Sakura gets a case of butterflies in her stomach every time she steps onto the battlefield and 'chokes' at the thought of killing someone, but gets over it when Hinoka points out only idiots or psychopaths aren't nervous about fighting a battle and tells her that she went through the same thing when it came to taking a life and states that she doesn't want Sakura to ever have to kill someone

Ryoma's problem could be worrying about inheriting his father's legacy as he doesn't get the same respect from the other Nobles that his father got, as many still consider him 'too young'. Not sure about his coping mechanism though, probably the same as Xander.

I'm still not sure about Hinoka though, probably something about not wanting to lose another sibling, but we'll see.

The other kids sound good. For Hinoka, I wanted to say that she is trying to be a warrior badass to challenge gender norms in Hoshido but considering there are a lot of female fighters, this probably doesn't make a lot of sense. I guess you could just play up that protector/avenger side. A woman determined to save Kamui at any cost, and to protect her younger siblings as well.

Edited October 9, 2015 by NekoKnight

[Time the Crestfallen]

And now you know why she drinks.

The theme of the Nohrian children (as an smaller sample of Nohrian society as a whole), is that only the strongest, smartest and most ruthless get ahead (this is encouraged to get the most elite soldiers and leaders possible). Elise is an anomoly because the timing of her birth allowed her to be soft in comparison to the other siblings who got where they are with their talents.

It might be an interesting contrast if Nohr were a ruthless meritocracy (although being of noble birth helps) and Hoshido practiced a lot of nepotism which leads to corruption and some military incompetency.

The other kids sound good. For Hinoka, I wanted to say that she is trying to be a warrior badass to challenge gender norms in Hoshido but considering there are a lot of female fighters, this probably doesn't make a lot of sense. I guess you could just play up that protector/avenger side. A woman determined to save Kamui at any cost, and to protect her younger siblings as well.

Your Camilla drinks to? Right on.

But yeah, my take on Nohr is a very harsh meritocracy if I remember correctly, as it takes a lot of work to climb the social hierarchy while one's rank can be lost very easily. It isn't uncommon for Noble Families to lose their birthright and, in theory, it would be possible for this to happen to the Nohrian Royal Family (but it won't because they can afford the best education/training/equipment and are the best the Kingdom has to offer as a result).

As for Hinoka going against gender-roles, there's an argument to be made that it isn't normal for female Hoshidan royals to fight on the front lines. Of the female nobles we see in game (Kagerou, Orochi, Mikoto, Kazehana, Setsuna and Hinoka), there's two bow users, a spellcaster and a ninja with the Samurai being similarly tomoyish.

[NekoKnight]

Kagerou is a noble? You'd think assassin work wouldn't be something nobles engage in in directly, especially if Hoshido is, on the surface, about fighting with honor.

Here's a new idea. We already have Camilla for the motherly, protector of younger siblings. What if you made Hinoka closer to Ryoma than Takumi or Sakura? Not distant to the latter two, but having similar values and interests to Ryoma. It could compound Takumi's insecurities if he felt a rift between himself and his older siblings.

This could make more sense if there is a larger age gap between her and Takumi than her and Ryoma.

Edited October 9, 2015 by NekoKnight

[Sunwoo]

Support growth rates already seem to imply that Hinoka is not close to Takumi and Sakura at all, while she is close to Ryouma.

[Dark Sage]

I was always under the impression that Camilla often had to kill some of her half-siblings to protect the rest and protecting her siblings would pretty much the only reason why she'd be so determined to get strong. Camilla strikes me as the type who would be particularly ruthless during the military campaign because she wants to spare Elise and Kamui from having to participate in the war and would likely try to convince Garon not to send them out to the front lines.

Rather than her experiences making her afraid to get close to someone, it seems to me like they'd probably motivate her to be more motherly and empathetic to others because she desperately wants to have the kind of happy family that she wasn't able to have growing up. I could see her doting on Takumi and Sakura too because they'd remind strongly of her siblings, Takumi in particular because he craves attention, approval, and recognition for his efforts and Camilla is definitely the type of person who would that, as opposed to his older siblings who he's not very close to and who don't seem to pay much attention to him.

One piece of advice: if you want to write moral dilemmas on the Nohr route with some complexity, use the Fat Man and the Trolley problem as a reference. It's very flexible to cover nearly any situation you can think of and is effective at demonstrating moral ambiguity.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Dark Sage

[Time the Crestfallen]

Kagerou is a noble? You'd think assassin work wouldn't be something nobles engage in in directly, especially if Hoshido is, on the surface, about fighting with honor.

Here's a new idea. We already have Camilla for the motherly, protector of younger siblings. What if you made Hinoka closer to Ryoma than Takumi or Sakura? Not distant to the latter two, but having similar values and interests to Ryoma. It could compound Takumi's insecurities if he felt a rift between himself and his older siblings.

This could make more sense if there is a larger age gap between her and Takumi than her and Ryoma.

Yeah, all the retainers (except Asama and probably Oboro) are nobles whose families have served the Royals for generations, and in my rewrite the Samurai Caste and Nobles are two different things, so I can imagine that there might be some sort of gender-norm thing were it is frowned upon for female nobles to fight on the front lines instead of indirectly or from a distance, as the two front-line fighters (Hinoka and Kazehana) are both tomboys.

Rather than her experiences making her afraid to get close to someone, it seems to me like they'd probably motivate her to be more motherly and empathetic to others because she desperately wants to have the kind of happy family that she wasn't able to have growing up. I could see her doting on Takumi and Sakura too because they'd remind strongly of her siblings, Takumi in particular because he craves attention, approval, and recognition for his efforts and Camilla is definitely the type of person who would that, as opposed to his older siblings who he's not very close to and who don't seem to pay much attention to him.

I agree. I think that she's very motherly and doting towards those around her because of what she went through in the Waifu Wars (and now I'm thinking of World Wars being fought entirely by people who are desperate for Husbandos, but I digress) and occasionally overcompensates as a result.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Phillius

[Great Geargia Gateway]

Hmm. I feel characters in this game would have shown brighter if it wasn't for this marriage system waifu/husbando stuff. These characters have so much depth, but feels thrown away, to me.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Great Geargia Gateway

[Damosel]

I like all this Camilla meta talk, when the yandere trope is peeled away (or at least reexamined) I definitely thinks she has a lot of interesting potential as a character.

Too bad the game's epilogue for her always has Camilla disown herself from Nohr's royal family and (unmarried) creep on Kamui 5eva or (married) just dote on her husband. Camilla seems really capable, but the game seems to try to imply she doesn't want to real politick.

Support growth rates already seem to imply that Hinoka is not close to Takumi and Sakura at all, while she is close to Ryouma.

Hinoka's supports with Takumi seems to greatly imply that they're not very close relationship-wise.

For my AU I had Ikona's death at the hands of ronin (game never tells us what she died of, so I went with plot reasons) be the trigger for motivating Hinoka to become a tenma knight. Course there's no Mikoto in my verse either, so it meant that Hinoka had to step up and take on the duties of managing the royal household at a young age- which also is a reason why Takumi and Sakura feel more of a disconnect to her, apart from even the age difference.

[Alazen]

Let's talk about the Maid Sisters and Joker.

Of the 3, Flora holds up the best as a character, insofar she has more of an arc than the other two and the royal sisters. Felicia and Joker don't hold up in comparison.

For Felicia, myself and others have gone with fusing her with Flora. I'm also thinking of taking Aqua being a foil to Kamui and applying it to Flora in that she was taken from her birth family and raised in Nohr.

For Joker, I'm thinking of cutting out Cyrus and framing Joker as Kamui's schemer buddy who's there whether the lost heavenly child is a boy or girl.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Alazen

[JupiterKnight]

She doesn't Damosel. She admits as such when she chooses not to become Queen of Nohr on Hoshido.

[Time the Crestfallen]

Too bad the game's epilogue for her always has Camilla disown herself from Nohr's royal family and (unmarried) creep on Kamui 5eva or (married) just dote on her husband. Camilla seems really capable, but the game seems to try to imply she doesn't want to real politick

Really? I haven't seen any of the epilogues.

[Alazen]

Camilla is marriage fodder. I'm honestly thinking it would be dandy to just scrap her.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Alazen

[Azz]

Honestly, Camilla and Hinoka can both be scrapped.They offer nothing to the story except like a few scenes of angst and boobs.

Also, I know I already asked this(But I am too lazy t go back and find the page I did on), but what are people doing with the FEA trio.I know Damosel has removed them, but what about other people.Personally, I am just rewriting their back stories to not include them from being well, who they really are and just being three Nohrians who are their respective royal's retainers who just happen to look like the FEA trio, but what about everyone else.

[Alazen]

Well sure, Hinoka isn't noticeably relevant for how close she supposedly is to Kamui but at least she's similar to Ryoma to the point that you could merge them into character.

I would scrap the Awakening returnees. The Invisible History failed to warrant their presence in Nohr.

[NekoKnight]

The Awakening trio don't need to be scrapped, just ignore their ties to Awakening (just like the actual game practically did).

The Invisible History DLC is such an insult to the writing, it boggles the mind. It exists specifically to point out that the 3 characters are worthless cameos and that they could have affected the story but didn't.

[Frelia]

The Awakening trio don't need to be scrapped, just ignore their ties to Awakening (just like the actual game practically did).

The Invisible History DLC is such an insult to the writing, it boggles the mind. It exists specifically to point out that the 3 characters are worthless cameos and that they could have affected the story but didn't.

When I watched the IH DLC the whole time I was like "okay, but why didn't you do that in the main story?" and "why didn't you three not a anything worthwhile in the IK route?". It made me sigh in my head about how worthless those three were in affecting the story. I can see why some people started calling them "The Three Idiots". The writing in that dlc really boggled my mind because it was such a mess and it felt like it added more questions than answered.

Edited October 11, 2015 by Frelia

[JupiterKnight]

That's the fault of the writers because they'd rather force you to buy DLC to learn something you should have learned in IK.