Third path/IK map issues (Minimal spoilers)

[MCProductions]

I've yet to play Fates, but I pretty much considered the 3rd route the support grinding route as soon as I heard it wasn't the screw everyone route. I doubt the third route will be of any interest to me beyond adding it to my collection of FE games. I am glad to hear Nohr and Hoshido are very enjoyable tho.

[Othin]

Oh god, the doors. That was the map that got me to stop my Invisible Kingdom playthrough midway and make some big progress on Hoshido Lunatic until I found out you could stealth through it rather than going through it conventionally again. Which is a shame, because the three chapters that have actually good fights against the Invisible Kingdom come shortly afterward.

I couldn't read the hints and figured red had to be good eventually, right? First two barely mattered; you can heal before you have to fight. Then there's the third, where if you pick it, you're dead. There's like no way to avoid losing at least one character unless you've prepared for it and if you did why would you pick the red door. What point could that possibly have, holy shit.

But yeah that's a great description of the merits of the Hoshido and Nohr routes and how they compare to Invisible Kingdom. My biggest complaint about them is that Hoshido wastes some otherwise good maps by letting you end them in one turn by taking out the boss.

[XeKr]

No gaiz, there’s like chokepoints everywhere and not big square maps so obviously they’re good maps right?

This is why I have always maintained that enemy placement, AI/aggro pattern, and quality (weapons, skills, etc) are more important to maps.

All I can say is enemies on Lunatic seem to get big Str/Def buffs. Like you see Outlaws with higher Str than Spd plus equal Def and Res, Fighters with higher Def than Spd and such. Things that don’t make too much sense classwise which makes them all really buff and hit really hard. I don’t remember if that’s the case on that other routes but I don’t think so? So it’s almost like you’re back in FE13 Lunatic (Corrin is Frederick, which is quite amusing) in terms of how scrubby most characters are. Ofc you do get siblings and such later, but eh for everyone else.

Edited August 1, 2015 by XeKr

[charlesbarkley]

IK has a similar map that feels like an early alpha concept that was scrapped for Hoshido's better implementation. You have three corridors, separated by two doors each. One door is blue, the other is red. The idea here is that you always pick the blue door. The red door will hurt your army. No, really, that's it. You're nearing the endgame at this point, and the game is challenging your ability to differentiate a calming shade of blue from a vibrant, bloody shade of red. There are no other interesting things like the Hoshido map had, no Golems, no floors becoming fire, so once you've grasped the idea, there's nothing more to it. And the game even tells you at the beginning to always choose the blue doors no matter what. The “joke” I suppose is that towards the end the boss tries to trick you into picking the red door, but it's done in such a blatantly obvious way that I only just now remembered that it ever happened.

The real gimmick in that map is that you're supposed to sneak past the patrols. If you get to the last door without being detected you get some extra items at the end of the chapter, including Boots. Also, the door thing is meant to be a mindgame playing on Kamui's characteristic of blindly trusting everyone:

Do you trust your mother, and always pick the blue door, or do you trust... your mother, and pick the red door?

[Dark Sage]

No gaiz, theres like chokepoints everywhere and not big square maps so obviously theyre good maps right?This is why I have always maintained that enemy placement, AI/aggro pattern, and quality (weapons, skills, etc) are more important to maps.All I can say is enemies on Lunatic seem to get big Str/Def buffs. Like you see Outlaws with higher Str than Spd plus equal Def and Res, Fighters with higher Def than Spd and such. Things that dont make too much sense classwise which makes them all really buff and hit really hard.

Ugh, I was really hoping they'd refrain from defense buffs. One of the good things FE11-FE13 did with its maniac/lunatic enemies was that they gave them higher HP, attack, speed, skill, and better weapons, but did not touch their defense stats, which is good because it makes enemies tougher to take down and makes them more durable, but still manageable and it's just better for a more player phase oriented game.

Like, FE9MM loved giving enemies high defense, which made them really annoying but still not that dangerous. It was really obnoxious early on because you got situations where Ike barely does anything to bandits because of how high their defense stat is while getting 2hkod in return, so he's reduced to taking a scrap or two while Titania does pretty much everything. It's just not fun.

I like what I hear from Nohr's map design, it seems like it rivals or surpasses New Mystery in that regard, which is no small feat.

Edited August 2, 2015 by Dark Sage

[FEF]

The real gimmick in that map is that you're supposed to sneak past the patrols. If you get to the last door without being detected you get some extra items at the end of the chapter, including Boots. Also, the door thing is meant to be a mindgame playing on Kamui's characteristic of blindly trusting everyone:

Do you trust your mother, and always pick the blue door, or do you trust... your mother, and pick the red door?

Are we sure it's a stealth thing? Because I assumed that at first, but the enemies came after me even if I was outside their range, and later on the reinforcements would spawn as soon as I opened the doors. How exactly is this supposed to work?

[Othin]

Are we sure it's a stealth thing? Because I assumed that at first, but the enemies came after me even if I was outside their range, and later on the reinforcements would spawn as soon as I opened the doors. How exactly is this supposed to work?

It's stealth. Just never let anyone be in enemy range before or after they start moving.

[charlesbarkley]

Ugh, I was really hoping they'd refrain from defense buffs. One of the good things FE11-FE13 did with its maniac/lunatic enemies was that they gave them higher HP, attack, speed, skill, and better weapons, but did not touch their defense stats, which is good because it makes enemies tougher to take down and makes them more durable, but still manageable and it's just better for a more player phase oriented game.

Like, FE9MM loved giving enemies high defense, which made them really annoying but still not that dangerous. It was really obnoxious early on because you got situations where Ike barely does anything to bandits because of how high their defense stat is while getting 2hkod in return, so he's reduced to taking a scrap or two while Titania does pretty much everything. It's just not fun.

I like what I hear from Nohr's map design, it seems like it rivals or surpasses New Mystery in that regard, which is no small feat.

Weaker units falling behind isn't as much of problem this time around, since they can still get kills with 0 damage, via attack stance. If you're feeding EXP to weaker units it makes it even more PP-oriented.

Are we sure it's a stealth thing? Because I assumed that at first, but the enemies came after me even if I was outside their range, and later on the reinforcements would spawn as soon as I opened the doors. How exactly is this supposed to work?

They will patrol the room in a set movement pattern, you have to make sure you're not in range at the start or end of EP. The reinforcements don't spawn if you open the correct doors. Once you open the last door, it doesn't matter if the patrols engage you in battle.

[FEF]

Uh. Hmm. I mean, I believe that's what happened to you, but I've played through that path twice now (second run was a solo, which makes the maps so much less tedious and slow), and I know for a fact I had the enemies come at me and spawn more reinforcements the moment I opened the door. That was actually one of the levels that gave me trouble, so I'd tried a few times to see if it was a stealth thing so that I could avoid reinforcements, but the enemies spawned regardless of whether or not I was in enemy range.

This was Hard mode, btw.

[XeKr]

Ugh, I was really hoping they'd refrain from defense buffs. One of the good things FE11-FE13 did with its maniac/lunatic enemies was that they gave them higher HP, attack, speed, skill, and better weapons, but did not touch their defense stats, which is good because it makes enemies tougher to take down and makes them more durable, but still manageable and it's just better for a more player phase oriented game.

Like, FE9MM loved giving enemies high defense, which made them really annoying but still not that dangerous. It was really obnoxious early on because you got situations where Ike barely does anything to bandits because of how high their defense stat is while getting 2hkod in return, so he's reduced to taking a scrap or two while Titania does pretty much everything. It's just not fun.

I like what I hear from Nohr's map design, it seems like it rivals or surpasses New Mystery in that regard, which is no small feat.

The Str buff is more noticeable than the Def buff imo, as enemies are still manageable with good player phase positioning and teamwork through attack stance. On enemy phase they hit too hard.

It feels like IK on Lunatic is more tuned toward the better characters, which really exposes the fact that characters like Corrin, Ryoma and Xander are simply way better than the others. Of note, Camilla was amazing for a (short) while, but dropped off faster given how hard enemies hit. Leon was pretty good as a Dark Flier but no durability. Hinoka was even more meh than Hoshido (dat 24 base hp…), mostly a rallybot. Takumi hit things hard, though not much onerounding. These characters have considerably better bases than most of the cast, so you can imagine how the others were.

But between Attack Stance, debuffs, poison, you can certainly use the others. I leveled everyone to at least 10 and even used Odin for Ophelia+Kanna, so I got a decent feel of how they all perform at base. What kinda hurts is, even if you continue to train these other characters, they’re still probably worse than the siblings (kinda FE10 DB/GM/Royals syndrome). It’s kinda true in other routes too but here you have double the number of siblings and sometimes less slots, so really not much space for others (and besides for filler Asyura/Fuuga come midgame with crazy stats for then).

Mozume, ironically, was the only character that felt worth the investment and had the best player phase of the army (doubles everything, more consistent hit rate compared to Ryoma).

[Thane]

So uh, I just noticed this on map 15: Asura joins as a promoted unit at level 10, on the very same map as Nyx joins as an unpromoted level nine. Before that, Charlotte joined at 10, Benoit at 15 and Silas at 18.

Am I missing something? Is there any rhyme or reason to this?

[Othin]

So uh, I just noticed this on map 15: Asura joins as a promoted unit at level 10, on the very same map as Nyx joins as an unpromoted level nine. Before that, Charlotte joined at 10, Benoit at 15 and Silas at 18.

Am I missing something? Is there any rhyme or reason to this?

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. You're absolutely correct: he joins at level 10 in Invisible Kingdom Ch15, even though he joins at level 2 after Nohr Ch16, with his stats adjusted accordingly. In Hoshido he joins at level 10 as well with the same stats but that's after Hoshido Ch22. So yes, it's completely befuddling and the only explanation I can think of is that the devs must've copied the wrong set of stats.

Edited August 2, 2015 by Othin

[Psych]

Eh i'm still gonna buy it.

I was worried Hoshido was holding your hand, here's a million dollars and a bunch of jeigans mode while Nohr was NO ITEMS EVER and no money or anything. So I figured IK was going to be a good balance and let me have items and grinding without trivializing the route. Plus hey I usually turtle so longer maps don't really bother me.

[CocoaGalaxy]

It's a bit interesting though, maybe there's something going on...but what can I say.

The real thing I came here to say was that, if it was so easy, I wonder why LucarioPlayer has been having quite a number of troubles with the maps, because I don't think he's a bad player or anything.

Edited August 2, 2015 by CocoaGalaxy

[Othin]

It's a bit interesting though, maybe there's something going on...but what can I say.

The real thing I came here to say was that, if it was so easy, I wonder why LucarioPlayer has been having quite a number of troubles with the maps, because I don't think he's a bad player or anything.

What sorts of troubles?

[CocoaGalaxy]

What sorts of troubles?

Let me check the videos again for some more concrete information. He's only up to Chapter 13 right now anyway

Maybe he's just having an extended bad luck streak or something

16/17 Strength Onis in Chap 8 and 9 I believe.

Chap 11, Elite Ninjas and what not (26 ATK, 1-2 Range, Snake Venom, Debuffs, 19 Speed 15 Defense)

Chap 12, 27 ATK Outlaws,

40 HP, 30 ATK, 18 Speed, 16 Defense Berserkers with 28 Crit

23 ATK Sorcerers (with Devilish Wind and Bind), 14 Speed, 15 Defense, 30 HP

Edited August 2, 2015 by CocoaGalaxy

[The DanMan]

Let me check the videos again for some more concrete information. He's only up to Chapter 13 right now anyway

Maybe he's just having an extended bad luck streak or something

16/17 Strength Onis in Chap 8 and 9 I believe.

Chap 11, Elite Ninjas and what not (26 ATK, 1-2 Range, Snake Venom, Debuffs, 19 Speed 15 Defense)

Chap 12, 27 ATK Outlaws,

40 HP, 30 ATK, 18 Speed, 16 Defense Berserkers with 28 Crit

23 ATK Sorcerers (with Devilish Wind and Bind), 14 Speed, 15 Defense, 30 HP

I feel like this could easily be handwaved; he's playing it on Lunatic.

[Othin]

Oh yeah earlygame stuff is more conventional, and yeah Lunatic.

[Ayra]

Even on Hard, the enemies in IK are very strong and threatening. That's actually part of the problem: since the enemies hit so hard, you have to approach all situations very carefully since none of your units can tank many hits. This encourages the player to use the "pull enemies one by one" approach, which is both more necessary and effective than in the other two paths.

Regarding the recruitment levels... It does feel completely out of whack. I don't think that much thought went into it, and they simply figured "Well, they'll just do a few skirmish to catch up the units they like so we won't bother to balance it". That's the only thing I see: the characters that come out underleveled are the characters that are kind of weak in the first place (Setsuna, Nyx, Odin, ect).

[Othin]

In Hoshido, the last unpromoted character you get during the main story is a level 14 Nishiki in Chapter 12.

In Nohr, the last unpromoted character you get during the main story is a level 15 Flannel in Chapter 14.

In Invisible Kingdom, you get Elise, Effie, Harold, and Charlotte ranging from levels 7-10 in Chapter 14, Nyx at level 9 in Chapter 15, Asama and Setsuna at levels 13 and 11 in Chapter 16, and Odin, Zero, Pieri, and Lazward ranging from levels 12-16 in Chapter 17. Given that Chapter 17 is the last one to feature any unpromoted enemies, that all seems like a bit of an issue.