Is Kamui a Mary Sue?

[Pixelman]

people really doesn't know what is a mary sue and kris is the worst offender

Then tell us what a Mary Sue is, lol

[TheWerdna]

I would say yes, but then again, most player avatars tend to be.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

I would say yes, but then again, most player avatars tend to be.

i haven't played the game but chances are player avatars are designed to be ones to make the player feel like playing the game.

i mean if the game treated you as a random peasant and said "anything you do is pointless because you are not special and nobody loves you" noone would really like it.

it seems like the main issue is that people are trying to compare an actual self insert to someone who's not and hold the same standards, so i'd only think corrin or whatever should only be compared to kris and robin.

[TheWerdna]

i haven't played the game but chances are player avatars are designed to be ones to make the player feel like playing the game.

i mean if the game treated you as a random peasant and said "anything you do is pointless because you are not special and nobody loves you" noone would really like it.

it seems like the main issue is that people are trying to compare an actual self insert to someone who's not and hold the same standards, so i'd only think corrin or whatever should only be compared to kris and robin.

Exactly. Its a kinda a trend with player characters in videogames to be basically Jesus, so I don't see it as too much of a point against Fates

[Vitezen]

You don't really need to make a character like Jesus to make them appealing though. Robin was a tactical genius, but isn't that to be expected when you're the protagonist of a tactics game? And with that came some of the negative qualities that made sense: see Severa's support, where Robin says that they have no problem killing any and all potential threats.

It makes sense for a person to be good at the profession that they mainly engage in, especially in a video game. Mary Sues are people who are far more skilled and more liked than their abilities and personality would merit.

The entire Fates story, on the other hand, revolves around Kamui unnecessarily, when the description of them given doesn't seem to warrant it.

[Cinnamon Bun]

I would say Kamui fails at being a self-insert for being so defined with so little leeway to spin or direct his views of major events.

For example, Kamui CAN'T be framed as contemptuous towards or unconcerned about his siblings. You can't have Hinoka actually die, whether by Kamui's hands or another's, and have her death mean nothing to him.

THIS. This is what bothers me most about Kamui. They're a self insert with a pre written personality and background. I'm so angry with IS for teasing us and saying decisions would "impact the story" as well.

[NekoKnight]

THIS. This is what bothers me most about Kamui. They're a self insert with a pre written personality and background. I'm so angry with IS for teasing us and saying decisions would "impact the story" as well.

But did anyone really think we would have a Mass Effect level avatar/self-insert? Unless we get dialogue trees, it isn't going to happen.

Edited August 18, 2015 by NekoKnight

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

But did anyone really think we would have a Mass Effect level avatar/self-insert? Unless we get dialogue trees, it isn't going to happen.

i know i didn't, besides there was no real 'choice" at all because it all ends at blue, red, and green.

[Alazen]

I really wouldn't use Commander Shepard as an example of a proper self-insert due to hard ME3 tried to define him as a character (see Shepard's response to Joker's crack about the Asari).

Edited August 18, 2015 by Alazen

[Abysswalker25]

I'm surprised Thane didn't make this thread much earlier given some of his older posts lol.

Is Kamui a mary sue? Depends on the person viewing the story. And regarding some earlier comments about him being tactically sound despite it saying his flaws.. look at PoR and RD. Soren was your tactician during those games. Who says someone else can't do so for Kamui? Or at least teach them about tactics to make them better at it if they are indeed in charge of such things.

Some people like the focus, some don't. Not everyone would straight up tell a royal of a kingdom "you're a piece of shit." so of course they throw praise at them. True, sometimes they went overboard with it. I think some people are jumping the gun on this considering there could still be some misinformation around/it'll get changed. Still from what we've seen so far? Kamui is close to being a mary sue in some routes more than others, but isn't quite there yet. Its mainly a result of being able to marry pretty much anyone you please. No one turns you down, which feels like more of a game mechanic than story writing. Besides, some people might get fustrated trying to get S-rank and then "oh well, I just wanna be your friend I don't feel that way for you" especially if it is a character they want to ship with. FE.

The IK route is probably the best one to play, not the Nohr or Hoshido one if you want him to be called out. Pretty much both sides declare you a traitor and it takes some serious work to unite everyone. Sure, you get some freebies like your sisters but it fits their personalities. Can you picture Sakura and Elise saying they want to kill Kamui? They also help you in uniting Hoshido/Nohr. Other than that, most of the siblings are against you. True they eventually join up with you but that's just how games are. Enemies becoming allies to fight a bigger threat is incredibly common in stories and games. But they don't all join you immediately and some flat out try to kill you. Either by their own hand or via assassins.

Kamui's writing isn't the best but don't throw the Mary Sue label around so easily. I know Nohr got the short end of the stick especially but the others routes are much better than it, and I wouldn't use Nohr as your main view of how Kamui should be since it is probably the worst one for them and probably the closest they come to ending up as a mary sue.

Edited August 18, 2015 by Abysswalker25

[Great Geargia Gateway]

i haven't played the game but chances are player avatars are designed to be ones to make the player feel like playing the game.

i mean if the game treated you as a random peasant and said "anything you do is pointless because you are not special and nobody loves you" noone would really like it.

it seems like the main issue is that people are trying to compare an actual self insert to someone who's not and hold the same standards, so i'd only think corrin or whatever should only be compared to kris and robin.

I'd like dat. No one sees you as important then you prove how important you can be. Underdog'ing. Love good development.

[Thane]

I'd like dat. No one sees you as important then you prove how important you can be. Underdog'ing. Love good development.

I'm inclined to agree. The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind is a great example of having a player avatar where it feels like everybody hates you in the beginning; they think you're a waste of space and want you to leave the country - until you prove yourself, and even then you'll inevitably anger multiple powerful groups since you can't keep everybody happy, so there are always parts of the world where you're not welcome.

Saying that player avatars are automatically Mary Sues and that somehow excuses Fates awful writing is simply intellectual dishonesty that doesn't contribute anything to the discussion. Firstly, there are great games out there where having a self-insert actually works, like in Knights of the Old Republic and Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords, as well as the aforementioned Morrowind. It actually adds something to the game since the games aren't afraid to challenge the player as well as include twists that work better for player avatars.

Secondly, a game should always be judged by its own merits unless under very rare circumstances. If you think Robin is a Mary Sue, does that excuse Kamui being one just because it's the same series? I'd say it should be tolerated even less BECAUSE it's the same series; it's worrying if the writers can't learn from their own mistakes. Fates took three years to develop with an alleged focus on story, so it definitely should be judged on its own.

But did anyone really think we would have a Mass Effect level avatar/self-insert? Unless we get dialogue trees, it isn't going to happen.

While I didn't expect dialogue trees, I did expect some better writing considering Intelligent Systems focus. I expected and hoped the narrative to be good and that Kamui would be a somewhat interesting protagonist considering they're the main character in a character-driven game - making a typical shounen main character is writing suicide given the premise.

It's not like Bioware's writing is that good, especially not in their later installments where they've tried to appeal to a wider audience, but I think they did get Shepard and The Warden right.

Ugh, great, I was reminded of Inquisition again...be right back, gotta brush my teeth and get rid of this horrible taste.

Edited August 18, 2015 by Thane

[Sunsurge]

We'll just have to agree to disagree, then. I believe Mary Sues spawn from bad writing, but I also believe Intelligent Systems really wanted to make the player feel empowered when playing through the game, but they went about it the wrong way, and we ended up with Kamui as he is now. As for Mary Sues in good pieces of fiction, could you give an example? I'm not doubting you, I just really want to know since I think this trope is very interesting.

Also, I'd like to point out that I never once mentioned Dragon Age: Inquisition, but Origins. Inquisition has far worse writing and its main character has far more Sue traits than the Gray Warden. Ugh, great, now you made me think about Inquisition...I've gotta go brush my teeth.

And you're right, we can't decide whether or not Kamui is a Mary Sue by comparing him to other works of fiction, but we can compare situations that may help us put things into perspective, which is why Robin has been brought up so many times.

No, I completely agree that IS wanted to make the player feel empowered. I just think we disagree on what a Mary Sue is at the core. XD

For instance, in Harry Potter (good work of fiction is debatable), a lot of people considered Ginny a Mary Sue with how she went from scared little sister to powerful, feisty witch without any true development. Suddenly she was lusted over by multiple guys, and good at everything. While I love Ginny (I had a crush on her as a kid), I can completely understand her position as a Mary Sue given how she develops and how she becomes literally 'perfect' in a sense. Granted, I feel as if it's forgivable because the book is from Harry's perspective, with focus on Ron and Hermione, so development can happen off-screen, but it is something I try to avoid in my own novels, without at least hints toward character development.

I can't honestly pull another one off the top of my head—I haven't read any good books lately—but I completely see what you're saying.

Haha, I never played Origins. I got Inquisition as a Christmas gift--so that was my first time in the series. I don't know about the writing between the two games though! But I don't really think the character is a Mary Sue (or even has that many Mary Sue traits), so much as he has "main character syndrome", in which the plot/characters/story is uniquely revolved around them. But I think his history/backstory/ability to give him his own traits and feelings make him a much more successful self-insert.

And on topic, I WAS expecting dialogue trees. I mean....I was HOPING for it. At least a few. I was hoping the initial choice wasn't all of them. I was thinking like...3 different endings in each story. A few choices throughout the game itself, which led us to whatever ending. Disappointed in that, but even without branching options/dialogue, the self-insert still could have been written much better.

Edited August 18, 2015 by Sunsurge

[NekoKnight]

It's not like Bioware's writing is that good, especially not in their later installments where they've tried to appeal to a wider audience, but I think they did get Shepard and The Warden right.

Ugh, great, I was reminded of Inquisition again...be right back, gotta brush my teeth and get rid of this horrible taste.

Whenever I say "I like Dragon Age" I have to pause for a moment and then add "Origins" to clarify I'm not a fan of anything past the first game. The Warden is probably the best example of a freely customizable (in appearance, gameplay choices and roleplaying) avatar that doesn't make you the center of the universe, such as it is in Fates. You are special, in the sense that you are the last of two people who are able to stop the Big Bad Dragon and his Army of Evil but most people won't respect you unless you earn it. The fact that your party members can leave you if you do something extremely contrary to their values shows that player worship is not a major thing in the game.

I didn't need Kamui to be able to pick and choose how he reacts to everything or what kind of person he is. I never needed it with any other FE main character, including Robin. Had they just written a respectable character that doesn't warp the narrative around him, I would have been happy. I maintain that Kamui should have been primarily a viewpoint and have characters like Marx and Ryoma take center-stage.

[Loki Laufeyson]

But did anyone really think we would have a Mass Effect level avatar/self-insert? Unless we get dialogue trees, it isn't going to happen.

I expected dialogue trees, but in the vein of Tales of Symphonia more than Mass Effect. Ultimate outcome isnt HUGELY affected, but very small (like some dialogue and main character responses) would be. Like something you say before a chapter may have an effect on who can recruit a character or something having to do with a character death. Like Suzukaze's plight in Hoshido, you can avoid it if you have an A support with him. Cool and junk, but what about being able to have saved Marx from doing something colossally stupid if you managed to say something at a certain time? Ya know?

You advertise a game based around choices in the story, dialogue trees expectations are going to happen in some form. I expected a more mild form of them but....: (

[-Cynthia-]

I think even limited dialogue trees would add a lot to the avatar, yeah. A player avatar where you have very few choices and all dialogue is automated isn't really the player's character, but the limitation of being a player representation tends to make their personality rather vague and bland.

[Abysswalker25]

If we're honest here, every FE game has not had superb writing that blows you away. Its decent/good. I'm not quite sure why people were expecting something like say the Gray Warden from DA:O. I imagine it is the common result of overhyping things in our minds and expecting too much. And part of that was the good 'base' of the idea behind fates. Two families warring with one another and you have to side with those you have ties with or those you were raised with. Moral conflict, trying to make things seem 'gray' with no choice really being the right one and giving you incentive to play on both sides. It sounded good on paper but it ended up falling short of some people's expectations in its execution.

Kamui is made to make the player feel important and powerful. It hurts them as a character at times but again they aren't quite a mary sue. They remind me a bit of Naruto as a character but I won't give away spoilers just in case someone doesn't really know the story behind him, but Naruto ain't considered a Mary sue despite some of his traits, which all surpass anything Kamui can be blamed for. At least, to my knowledge he hasn't really been called out for it. Anyways thats just my reference there are probably a couple more I can list if it comes to it. And if you can't really be convinced, then.. wait for the next Fire Emblem game and hope they improve the characters/storyline.

[Great Geargia Gateway]

Kamui is made to make the player feel important and powerful. It hurts them as a character at times but again they aren't quite a mary sue. They remind me a bit of Naruto as a character but I won't give away spoilers just in case someone doesn't really know the story behind him, but Naruto ain't considered a Mary sue despite some of his traits, which all surpass anything Kamui can be blamed for. At least, to my knowledge he hasn't really been called out for it. Anyways thats just my reference there are probably a couple more I can list if it comes to it. And if you can't really be convinced, then.. wait for the next Fire Emblem game and hope they improve the characters/storyline.

You're playing an RPG fantasy game. You're always going to somehow be important to effect everything. Skyrim, a wonderer that just get's chosen by everything and solves all the worlds problems. What Fates don't do is give good development for Kamui and options. Kamui basically gets carried all the way through. Then you compare it to Naruto and it's like a dump truck pouring salt and lemon juice on where Kamui cut himself. There's nothing going for Kamui. It's okay for Naruto cause his Rival's like Sasuke are equally or just stronger. This isn't about Kamui making the player feel powerful or important, because you're not playing Kamui, and he doesn't meld well with the story.

[Alazen]

Naruto has been shoddily written since at least the Chunin Exams. I wouldn't use it to defend Kamui.

[Thane]

No, I completely agree that IS wanted to make the player feel empowered. I just think we disagree on what a Mary Sue is at the core. XD

For instance, in Harry Potter (good work of fiction is debatable), a lot of people considered Ginny a Mary Sue with how she went from scared little sister to powerful, feisty witch without any true development. Suddenly she was lusted over by multiple guys, and good at everything. While I love Ginny (I had a crush on her as a kid), I can completely understand her position as a Mary Sue given how she develops and how she becomes literally 'perfect' in a sense. Granted, I feel as if it's forgivable because the book is from Harry's perspective, with focus on Ron and Hermione, so development can happen off-screen, but it is something I try to avoid in my own novels, without at least hints toward character development.

I can't honestly pull another one off the top of my head—I haven't read any good books lately—but I completely see what you're saying.

Haha, I never played Origins. I got Inquisition as a Christmas gift--so that was my first time in the series. I don't know about the writing between the two games though! But I don't really think the character is a Mary Sue (or even has that many Mary Sue traits), so much as he has "main character syndrome", in which the plot/characters/story is uniquely revolved around them. But I think his history/backstory/ability to give him his own traits and feelings make him a much more successful self-insert.

And on topic, I WAS expecting dialogue trees. I mean....I was HOPING for it. At least a few. I was hoping the initial choice wasn't all of them. I was thinking like...3 different endings in each story. A few choices throughout the game itself, which led us to whatever ending. Disappointed in that, but even without branching options/dialogue, the self-insert still could have been written much better.

I'm not here to convince anyone that my opinion of the trope means, I said that in the very first post; I started this thread because I'm interested in hearing everybody elses' thoughts on the matter due to the ambiguity of the trope.

As for your opinion on Harry Potter, while I agree that it came a bit out of nowhere, the universe doesn't bend around Ginny like it does someone like Kamui, nor is she constantly in the center of attention. The list could be made very long, but I think you get my point. If anything, I'd bring up Sherlock Holmes as an example, but even then he still occasionally fails and has multiple weaknesses - Watson even states that he's as impressed by Holmes' knowledge as he is by his ignorance.

I suspected as much. If I talk about Origins and you immediately go off to talk about Inquisition, then you clearly haven't experienced the difference. Believe me when I tell you that Inquisition's writing is utter shit when compared to Origins. I don't think the two are even comparable. If I had just played the two games and known nothing about them, and then been told they were written by the same company, I would never have believed them.

If we're honest here, every FE game has not had superb writing that blows you away. Its decent/good. I'm not quite sure why people were expecting something like say the Gray Warden from DA:O. I imagine it is the common result of overhyping things in our minds and expecting too much. And part of that was the good 'base' of the idea behind fates. Two families warring with one another and you have to side with those you have ties with or those you were raised with. Moral conflict, trying to make things seem 'gray' with no choice really being the right one and giving you incentive to play on both sides. It sounded good on paper but it ended up falling short of some people's expectations in its execution.

Kamui is made to make the player feel important and powerful. It hurts them as a character at times but again they aren't quite a mary sue. They remind me a bit of Naruto as a character but I won't give away spoilers just in case someone doesn't really know the story behind him, but Naruto ain't considered a Mary sue despite some of his traits, which all surpass anything Kamui can be blamed for. At least, to my knowledge he hasn't really been called out for it. Anyways thats just my reference there are probably a couple more I can list if it comes to it. And if you can't really be convinced, then.. wait for the next Fire Emblem game and hope they improve the characters/storyline.

Look, I agree with you on Fire Emblem's weakness being its writing that has never been anything above average unless we're talking about certain character interactions but...did you just use Naruto as a means of trying to disprove Kamui being a Mary Sue? I'm sorry, but the latter part of Naruto is the single worst thing I've ever read by someone who actually gets paid to write. It has zero redeeming qualities, the plot makes no sense, the author goes against his very core message in a way that makes my head spin, we literally have entire chapters of armies of red shirts being pulverized by powerful individuals who have been brought back from the dead yet one of the messages of the arc is to let the new generation rise, supporting characters are entirely forgotten due to fan service like having Itachi coming back to life to stop Kabuto, whose role in the story was just shoved in there so that the story could take happen in the first place.

I could go on, but I'll finish with saying that Naruto could definitely be considered a Mary Sue. Not that giving him an ambiguous title like that would affect Kamui in the slightest, but I'm just saying the case could definitely be made. What bothers me the most is that the author took what was a genuinely good attempt at, despite an unnecessary reliance on clichés and tropes, writing an underdog story in an interesting setting only to later completely throw it out the window.

[Abysswalker25]

The Naruto thing was just an example of how some characters can be called out when there are worse ones out there that end up getting no attention and are seen are fine characters anyways. Kamui could've been much worse and if they were, I would agree they are a mary sue. They come close during certain times, but they aren't at that level yet is my point. As for the story, I think it was overhyped too much which left it being seen as disappointing by some. We also had a newbie boom, which might've caused expectations for Fire Emblem to go on the rise. Plus, some controversy regarding the face touching stuff and certain support convos didn't help. Being seen as odd and or random at best to being something people legitimately bash fans of the series and insulting them for enjoying anything that could include such features at the worst.

Back to Kamui after going off topic a bit, I also want to add it depends on a persons definition of a mary sue. I think our opinions just don't match up in that regard. Tvtropes doesn't have the be-all-end-all definition for the term, y'know what I mean?

Edited August 19, 2015 by Abysswalker25

[Thane]

The Naruto thing was just an example of how some characters can be called out when there are worse ones out there that end up getting no attention and are seen are fine characters anyways. Kamui could've been much worse and if they were, I would agree they are a mary sue. They come close during certain times, but they aren't at that level yet is my point. As for the story, I think it was overhyped too much which left it being seen as disappointing by some. We also had a newbie boom, which might've caused expectations for Fire Emblem to go on the rise. Plus, some controversy regarding the face touching stuff and certain support convos didn't help. Being seen as odd and or random at best to being something people legitimately bash fans of the series and insulting them for enjoying anything that could include such features at the worst.

Back to Kamui after going off topic a bit, I also want to add it depends on a persons definition of a mary sue. I think our opinions just don't match up in that regard. Tvtropes doesn't have the be-all-end-all definition for the term, y'know what I mean?

Your arguments make absolutely no sense, nor do you even explain why you don't think Kamui is a Mary Sue. I also fail to see how a "newbie boom" leads the developers to go out of their way to talk about the story and how they hired an established writer and then utterly failing to deliver. I also fail to see what face touching has to do with the main narrative or Kamui as a character, which is what this thread is about. You're just bringing up a bunch of different topics in your post without any rhyme or reason, so I honestly don't know how to respond to it.

I never once claimed TV Tropes defined Mary Sue perfectly and that it's the only acceptable definition of the trope, and if you had read the article, you'd see that they say the exact same thing.

If you're going to post in this thread, could you please do it a bit more coherently with actual arguments relevant to the topic at hand? Otherwise I'd like to kindly ask you to stop.

[Abysswalker25]

First off, you're reacting to my post way too aggressively. I know you didn't say TV Tropes defined a mary sue perfectly, but I imagined that definition was the one you were using since you mentioned your 'facincation with the trope' and I merely brought up the fact that TV Tropes wasn't what everyone else used to define a mary sue so opinions would be different regarding that. If I got what I saw wrong, then I'm sorry. Next, the newbie boom affects -expectations- of the story. More fans, people expect good quality since it was able to get those fans in the first place. Yeah they hired a writer, they hyped themselves up, they had all the tools but it fell flat. As a result, they couldn't match their hype for the game's story which led it being seen as disappointing by some people. Strayed off further when I mentioned the face rubbing and controversies so, again sorry. When I spoke about the story, it was off-topic. I even SAID it was off topic.

As for Kamui not being a mary sue, its the support convos that save them. Not all of them are golden but they flesh out the character more and prevent them from being a generic, perfect mary sue. You could just look at the main story and say everyone swarms around them and loves them and appreciates them but you're being selective in your viewing. Yeah you can marry everyone but it is a game mechanic and its even explained in story by fighting along-side those people. I mean look at it from your perspective. If I fought alongside anyone, I'd feel a connection of friendship. That person has your back and you have theirs. So it explains why they might like Kamui.

You were wondering what I considered a mary sue as well? I consider a Mary Sue to be someone that is boringly perfect, doesn't have to struggle with hardship, has one flaw that is mentioned and never played up, breaks the story with their presence and is generally uninteresting and has little to no flavor as a character, has everyone fawning over them for no reason at all and has some crazy power and or heritage. Some of the support convos they have prevents this from happening in my opinion. Kamui doesn't fit with enough of those traits for me to call them a Mary Sue. Some of the traits? Sure, but not enough.

Another issue I have to bring up is some of the complaints of how Kamui seems to make the game feel too centered on them and it makes them feel sueish.

Of course the story will be centered around Kamui and their perspective. Kamui is the main character, they get the most attention not to mention the fact they are also THE lord character of his game. You're not sharing the main spotlight with someone like Chrom and Lucina. In addition, Kamui isn't fully their own character like Ike or Lyn was. They're a custom character made by the player, so IS decided to give them a little extra good treatment as a result. Whether you think that was good or bad is up to an individual person. I don't really mind it. Don't care for it but I don't dislike it either.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Abysswalker25

[Sunsurge]

You were wondering what I considered a mary sue as well? I consider a Mary Sue to be someone that is boringly perfect, doesn't have to struggle with hardship, has one flaw that is mentioned and never played up, breaks the story with their presence and is generally uninteresting and has little to no flavor as a character, has everyone fawning over them for no reason at all and has some crazy power and or heritage. Some of the support convos they have prevents this from happening in my opinion. Kamui doesn't fit with enough of those traits for me to call them a Mary Sue. Some of the traits? Sure, but not enough.

Another issue I have to bring up is some of the complaints of how Kamui seems to make the game feel too centered on them and it makes them feel sueish.

Of course the story will be centered around Kamui and their perspective. Kamui is the main character, they get the most attention not to mention the fact they are also THE lord character of his game. You're not sharing the main spotlight with someone like Chrom and Lucina. In addition, Kamui isn't fully their own character like Ike or Lyn was. They're a custom character made by the player, so IS decided to give them a little extra good treatment as a result. Whether you think that was good or bad is up to an individual person. I don't really mind it. Don't care for it but I don't dislike it either.

This. This is the definition of a Mary Sue that I was taught.

A story that warps around a character doesn't define a Mary Sue at all, but is just an indication of bad writing. Being a Mary Sue, generally has nothing to do with the story being centered around them, because they're two separate issues. And I agree with you, Kamui isn't really a full character, because they are custom and so their treatment within the story is based upon that.

I'm not here to convince anyone that my opinion of the trope means, I said that in the very first post; I started this thread because I'm interested in hearing everybody elses' thoughts on the matter due to the ambiguity of the trope.

As for your opinion on Harry Potter, while I agree that it came a bit out of nowhere, the universe doesn't bend around Ginny like it does someone like Kamui, nor is she constantly in the center of attention. The list could be made very long, but I think you get my point. If anything, I'd bring up Sherlock Holmes as an example, but even then he still occasionally fails and has multiple weaknesses - Watson even states that he's as impressed by Holmes' knowledge as he is by his ignorance.

Which is where I think you're wrong. I don't really think there's an 'opinion' of it. Nor do I think it's very ambiguous. There are clear cut lines that define a Mary Sue, and you can learn them in any writing class usually. I know you're not trying to convince anyone of your opinion (and I never said you were?), but you can't really argue either if you disagree on everyone else's interpretation of a Mary Sue that contrasts your own if you're only 'interested in hearing' everyone else's opinions.

As you just said, the universe doesn't bend around Ginny, but that's not part of the Mary Sue trope. Universe bending is 'main character syndrome', as is constantly being the center of attention. Mary Sue is mostly defined with traits within a character. Not the outside factors such as the universe revolving around them.

[arvilino]

i know i didn't, besides there was no real 'choice" at all because it all ends at blue, red, and green.

That's most games with choice. Dragon Age Origins gets a lot of name drops in this thread but in the end it doesn't have a single option that upset or redirect the goal or direction of the overall quest.

It's a brilliant RPG but as The Grey Warden you're the arbiter of all the choices that don't effect the flow/direction of the story. The game's structure provides you with a lot of self-contained events where you can make a choice, the characters can be killed or turn against you exactly past the point that they've exhausted their use and their death could not possibly alter the in-game direction.

Very few games have true choice that diverge from each other because the more they diverge the developers have to start creating more and more content, hence why games quickly reconverge or leave the choice to the dead end of the dungeon/game so everyone plays the same bits. Even a series like Fable which was supposed to be the choice of polar Evil or Good has a 100% pure evil character save the world in the exact same way as 100% good.

Edited August 19, 2015 by arvilino